Re: TOTD 090508: creams or lotions?

[Guest guest]

How do you feel about lotions as compared to creams? Would you want the

cleanser to be a cream and the moisturizer a lotion, or vice versa?

Both as lotions? Both as creams?

I am a lotion addict and use so much that I stick with simple organic

stuff I can pick up at the local whole foods, etc. However, in my

opinion, there's nothing like a gorgeous and luxurious NP cream for

after a perfumed bath for a special occasion. Yum!

[Guest guest]

How do you feel about lotions as compared to creams? Would you want the

cleanser to be a cream and the moisturizer a lotion, or vice versa?

Both as lotions? Both as creams?

I am a lotion addict and use so much that I stick with simple organic

stuff I can pick up at the local whole foods, etc. However, in my

opinion, there's nothing like a gorgeous and luxurious NP cream for

after a perfumed bath for a special occasion. Yum!

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering, what is the difference between a cream and a lotion? I had

thought of trying my hand at these as well.

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering, what is the difference between a cream and a lotion? I had

thought of trying my hand at these as well.

[Guest guest]

On Sep 5, 2008, at 3:50 PM, Shea wrote:

> I'm wondering, what is the difference between a cream and a lotion?

> I had thought of trying my hand at these as well.

>

The creams are thicker and needs a jar; lotions are looser and can be

used with lotion pumps.

[Guest guest]

On Sep 5, 2008, at 3:50 PM, Shea wrote:

> I'm wondering, what is the difference between a cream and a lotion?

> I had thought of trying my hand at these as well.

>

The creams are thicker and needs a jar; lotions are looser and can be

used with lotion pumps.

[Guest guest]

creams are heavier and usually used at night or for severly chapped or dry skin.

A lotion is more absorbable and is a lightweight moisturizer for daily use. Hope

that helps!

[Guest guest]

Adam Gottschalk wrote:

> Going with the idea that the couture features a perfume and attendant

> lotions/creams, meant to smell similarly, a perfumer should also make

> these items. Part of the idea is that a person might be able to

> afford a lotion where they might not have the money for a perfume;

> this lets them get in for cheaper and if they really like what they

> get, they'll return to buy more items in the line, including

> eventually the perfume.

>

> Do you sell or make items meant to accompany your perfumes, such as

> lotions, creams, powders, etc.? The women in my life tell me ladies

> today want a lotion rather than a cream because cleansing,

> moisturizing, etc. creams remind them of the older generation. How do

> you feel about lotions as compared to creams? Would you want the

> cleanser to be a cream and the moisturizer a lotion, or vice versa?

> Both as lotions? Both as creams?

Honestly I'm a bit iffy about the whole subject.

There's a number of things that have stopped me from adding lotions or

creams to my line..

1)It's impossible to make a completely natural lotion or cream. The

water element in them requires an artificial preservative and you also

realistically need an artificial emulsifier if you want a good

consistency. And at present, I don't really want to go there.

2) Personally, I have also taken great care with the selection of oils I

add to moisturizers. I have a background in Aromatherapy and herbalism,

and the oils I would use for skin care products are not necessarily the

ones I use in creating beautifull perfumes. I'm not sure you can marry

the two simply. for instance, many of us use oakmoss as a base

ingredient in perfume. It's a delightful scent, but has also been the

topic of some controversy as some research indicates that it may be an

allergen or skin sentisizer for some people. Many of the absolutes have

no traditional uses in skin care at all.

Now I will happily use these in perfume, in small amounts in base

notes...but I'm not sure I'd be as happy adding this to a body care

product that was meant to be applied to the whole body in a medium that

causes it to sink into the top layers of the skin. Perfume is applied to

limited small areas of the body and sprayed onto clothing. Which is a

very different matter.

Of course, modern perfumery and cosmetic manufacturing is far less

careful and much more dangerous for the consumer....but for me, I need

to have full faith in the safety and healing aspects of everything I sell.

3) The amount of oil/absolute needed to scent an eau de toillette is

pretty much the same as you need to sent a somewhat larger bottle of

lotion. The scent tends to get lost in the lotion base, so you need more

to create even a weaker scented product. So in effect, it costs you the

same amount to produce a lotion, but the general public would expect you

to sell it for less. Which doesn't matter to large chemically based

perfume companies as the actual ingreidient cost of their products is

the smaller part of their calculations. Packaging design, advertising

and distribution make aup a much larger part of the cost you pay in the end.

Whereas for us small, natural artisan perfumers, the ingredients

themselves are by far the most expensive component.

[Guest guest]

Adam Gottschalk wrote:

> Going with the idea that the couture features a perfume and attendant

> lotions/creams, meant to smell similarly, a perfumer should also make

> these items. Part of the idea is that a person might be able to

> afford a lotion where they might not have the money for a perfume;

> this lets them get in for cheaper and if they really like what they

> get, they'll return to buy more items in the line, including

> eventually the perfume.

>

> Do you sell or make items meant to accompany your perfumes, such as

> lotions, creams, powders, etc.? The women in my life tell me ladies

> today want a lotion rather than a cream because cleansing,

> moisturizing, etc. creams remind them of the older generation. How do

> you feel about lotions as compared to creams? Would you want the

> cleanser to be a cream and the moisturizer a lotion, or vice versa?

> Both as lotions? Both as creams?

Honestly I'm a bit iffy about the whole subject.

There's a number of things that have stopped me from adding lotions or

creams to my line..

1)It's impossible to make a completely natural lotion or cream. The

water element in them requires an artificial preservative and you also

realistically need an artificial emulsifier if you want a good

consistency. And at present, I don't really want to go there.

2) Personally, I have also taken great care with the selection of oils I

add to moisturizers. I have a background in Aromatherapy and herbalism,

and the oils I would use for skin care products are not necessarily the

ones I use in creating beautifull perfumes. I'm not sure you can marry

the two simply. for instance, many of us use oakmoss as a base

ingredient in perfume. It's a delightful scent, but has also been the

topic of some controversy as some research indicates that it may be an

allergen or skin sentisizer for some people. Many of the absolutes have

no traditional uses in skin care at all.

Now I will happily use these in perfume, in small amounts in base

notes...but I'm not sure I'd be as happy adding this to a body care

product that was meant to be applied to the whole body in a medium that

causes it to sink into the top layers of the skin. Perfume is applied to

limited small areas of the body and sprayed onto clothing. Which is a

very different matter.

Of course, modern perfumery and cosmetic manufacturing is far less

careful and much more dangerous for the consumer....but for me, I need

to have full faith in the safety and healing aspects of everything I sell.

3) The amount of oil/absolute needed to scent an eau de toillette is

pretty much the same as you need to sent a somewhat larger bottle of

lotion. The scent tends to get lost in the lotion base, so you need more

to create even a weaker scented product. So in effect, it costs you the

same amount to produce a lotion, but the general public would expect you

to sell it for less. Which doesn't matter to large chemically based

perfume companies as the actual ingreidient cost of their products is

the smaller part of their calculations. Packaging design, advertising

and distribution make aup a much larger part of the cost you pay in the end.

Whereas for us small, natural artisan perfumers, the ingredients

themselves are by far the most expensive component.

[Guest guest]

On Sep 5, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Ambrosia wrote:

> 1)It's impossible to make a completely natural lotion or cream. The

> water element in them requires an artificial preservative and you also

> realistically need an artificial emulsifier if you want a good

> consistency. And at present, I don't really want to go there.

Good points, but aren't there natural preservatives like Germall?

[Guest guest]

On Sep 5, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Ambrosia wrote:

> 1)It's impossible to make a completely natural lotion or cream. The

> water element in them requires an artificial preservative and you also

> realistically need an artificial emulsifier if you want a good

> consistency. And at present, I don't really want to go there.

Good points, but aren't there natural preservatives like Germall?

[Guest guest]

Adam Gottschalk wrote:

>

>

>> 1)It's impossible to make a completely natural lotion or cream. The

>> water element in them requires an artificial preservative and you also

>> realistically need an artificial emulsifier if you want a good

>> consistency. And at present, I don't really want to go there.

>

> Good points, but aren't there natural preservatives like Germall?

I'm not sure what is in Germall, but the last " completely natural "

preservative that was touted around was grapefruit seed extract to

memory...it turned out that the process by which it was made actually

combined it with a chemical preservative...which was what was working....

Other things I've seen are rosemary extract...which will act as an

antioxidant, but not a preservative as such....

Do you have a link to Germall with it's actual constitution?

Ambrosia

[Guest guest]

> Do you have a link to Germall with it's actual constitution?

Here's what I found:

" Liquid Germall® Plus A convenient, easy to incorporate version of

Germall Plus dissolved in a base of 60% propylene glycol. Can be used

in surfactant based systems such as shampoos and body/shower gels,

conditioners and other high water content products. Ideal for water-

in-oil and oil-in-water emulsions, creams and lotions, make-up and

other highly pigmented products. Not for use in products intended to

be aerosolized.

Recommended Use Levels: 0.1 - 0.5%

Appearance: Clear viscous liquid

INCI: Propylene Glycol (and) olidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl

Butylcarbamate "

I guess it's not as " natural " as I thought, though I really don't

know what those chemicals are. Are they bad?

[Guest guest]

Adam Gottschalk wrote:

>

>

>> Do you have a link to Germall with it's actual constitution?

>

> Here's what I found:

>

> " Liquid Germall® Plus A convenient, easy to incorporate version of

> Germall Plus dissolved in a base of 60% propylene glycol. Can be used

> in surfactant based systems such as shampoos and body/shower gels,

> conditioners and other high water content products. Ideal for water-

> in-oil and oil-in-water emulsions, creams and lotions, make-up and

> other highly pigmented products. Not for use in products intended to

> be aerosolized.

>

> Recommended Use Levels: 0.1 - 0.5%

>

> Appearance: Clear viscous liquid

>

> INCI: Propylene Glycol (and) olidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl

> Butylcarbamate "

>

> I guess it's not as " natural " as I thought, though I really don't

> know what those chemicals are. Are they bad?

Propylene glycol is antifreeze.

I had a quick scout for Germal online and found a few medical articles

linking it to allergies and skin sensistivities in medical journals. So

it's definitely not a good one to use for people with sensitive skin.

Ambrosia

http://www.perfumebynature.com.au

[Guest guest]

> INCI: Propylene Glycol (and) olidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl

> Butylcarbamate "

>

> I guess it's not as " natural " as I thought, though I really don't

> know what those chemicals are. Are they bad?

>

I'm not a chemist, but here's some info:

Propylene glycol is a petroleum derivative. It's the active

ingredient in anti-freeze and hydraulic fluids. Propylene Glycol

(PG), Polyethylene Glycol (PEG), and Ethylene Glycol (EG) all act as

solvents, surfactants, and wetting agents. They can easily penetrate

the skin, and can weaken protein and cellular structure. It's in

transdermal patches that deliver drugs into the body. The EPA warns

factory workers to avoid skin contact with PG in order to prevent

brain, liver, and kidney abnormalities. PG is present in many stick

deodorants. It's in paints and coatings, floor wax, laundry

detergents, pet food, processed foods, tobacco, lotions, shampoos,

cosmetics, toothpastes, and many other personal care items.

I avoid products that have propylene glycol in them -- either topical

or ingestible. (You'd be surprised at the food they put it in.)

Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate is linked to contact dermatitis. (One

example: it's used in moist sanitary wipes and they're finding that

people are getting contact dermatitis on their hands and wherever else

the stuff touches.) It also caused people with existing dermatitis to

have adverse reactions, which got worse the longer it stayed in

contact with the skin. Sounds like it's not something I want to be in

the lotion that I'm rubbing into my sensitive skin...

And here's the real fun one: olidinyl urea is produced by the

chemical reaction of allantoin and formaldehyde in the presence of

sodium hydroxide solution and heat. It is a formaldehyde releaser - a

chemical compound that slowly releases formaldehyde. olidinyl

urea was recently re-classified by the International Agency for

Research on Cancer to its highest toxic class, IARC 1 (known human

carcinogen). Formaldehyde is classified as a probable human carcinogen

by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, which provides sufficient

evidence that formaldehyde causes nasopharyngeal cancer in humans by

the International Agency for Research on Cancer.

" The morphology of early allergic contact dermatitis reactions was

studied in formaldehyde allergic individuals exposed to a cream

product preserved with 4 different concentrations of diazolidinyl

urea. The study was made using a dose-escalating design in 3 different

anatomical regions, the upper arm, neck and face. On the arm and neck,

the dominant initial morphology was an eczematous papular eruption. In

the face, the initial skin changes were more homogeneous and

infiltrated erythema. "

I may be an alarmist, but I avoid most things with multi-syllabic

chemical names. (Again, I'm not a chemist. So now some smart chemist

will tell me the 10 to 13-syllable chemical names for some of the nice

gentle natural ingredients that I adore. Whatever.)

Anyway, there's some info. I'm sure it's fine for most folks. Just

not for those of us who have sensitive skin that's prone to the types

of reactions described above.

Cheers!

Andrine

[Guest guest]

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/preservatives/

Janita

JHNP

[Guest guest]

If the url I put up still doesn't open up... google natural preservatives as

there are a few interesting academic papers regarding this.

Ths url orig came from a post from from sagescript in April 08 ...

tap in natural preservatives in message files.. quite a bit comes up.

Janita

http://www.janitahaan.com

[Guest guest]

> Going with the idea that the couture features a perfume and

attendant

> lotions/creams, meant to smell similarly, a perfumer should also

make

> these items.

Adam, your TOTD blurs some boundaries. You need to distinguish a

cream or lotion for the face as opposed to one for the body. A

perfumed cream or lotion would be appropriate for the body whereas

for the face, an essential oil blend would be used for it's active

constituents. The EO's are also added at a different ratio; 1-2% EO

per net weight.

A perfume cream for the body would have to be made with a

conventional formula using synthetic emulsifiers and preservatives,

although if you were to add your fragrance with alcohol, you could

reduce or eliminate preservatives. I'm not sure what the percentage

of alcohol would have to be in order to replace a preservative.

Personally, I make a preservative-free cream for my face and a

scented oil for my body as opposed to a lotion as it's not possible

to make a decent lotion with a beeswax emulsion. In that case you

could easily perfume your body oil. I've tried other synthetic

emulsifiers, but I keep returning to beeswax as it has the best

consistency in a cream, especially the latest fragrant chunk I

purchased directly from a beekeeper in upstate NY.

Maggie

[Guest guest]

Propylene Glycol (and) olidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl

> Butylcarbamate "

From my understanding one of the many uses for Propylene Glycol is

as a carrier for fragrance since it acts as a solvent. It's also

used in brake oil and anti-freeze. There's been controversy

surrounding the use of propylene glycol as it causes liver damage

among other things. It is fairly ubiquitous and can be found in all

kinds of personal care products from creams, mouthwashes, deodorants

and shampoos to. . . well, everything. I stay away from it,

especially with a small child. As for the other ingredients, here's

what Wikipedia has to say:

olidinyl urea, as a formaldehyde releaser, is sometimes used in

cosmetic products as a preservative, was recently re-classified by

the International Agency for Research on Cancer to its highest toxic

class, IARC 1 (known human carcinogen). Formaldehyde is classified as

a probable human carcinogen by the U.S. Environmental Protection

Agency, which provides sufficient evidence that formaldehyde causes

nasopharyngeal cancer in humans by the International Agency for

Research on Cancer.[2]

Need I say more, except thank G*d for Wikipedia!!!

Maggie

[Guest guest]

To tell the truth I don't like to make what I would not use myself and

I use unscented or very lightly scented products on my skin. I would

feel unqualified to make a lotion anyway, seems like a whole different

art more akin to health. I do make beeswax , oil and herbal balms for

myself and my friends (no perfume invloved)

Katlyn

Katlyn Breene

Mermade Magickal Arts (since 1984)

katmermade@...

http://www.mermadearts.com/

[Guest guest]

Di-Propylene glycol is what I believe they use to dilute fragrance

oils used for " dipping " cheap incense, there is always much debate on

its safety.

Katlyn Breene

Mermade Magickal Arts (since 1984)

katmermade@...

http://www.mermadearts.com/

[Guest guest]

 

Propylene Glycol (and) olidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl

> Butylcarbamate "

UREA=PISS I read

Bb

[Guest guest]

Yes, that does help guys. Thsnks. I kind of figured thats what thay

were, but wasnt sure. " Butters " are even thicker than creams, right?

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, that does help guys. Thsnks. I kind of figured thats what thay

were, but wasnt sure. " Butters " are even thicker than creams, right?

>