Re: Tsatsouline ab utilization in kettlebell video

[Guest guest]

Dr Siff wrote:

> [i have been familiar with kettlebell training for over 40 years,

> but I have not seen Pavel's video, nor have I heard him stating that

> it is imperative to " draw the navel to the spine " . You will have to

> provide more specific details than what 'seems' to be the case. I have

> always stressed that, during heavy lifting, the healthy trunk musculature

> will automatically activate the different muscles in the optimal pattern

> which suits you in any given movement, without your having to isolate

> any individual muscles.

Mark writes:

I am only going on observation, as Pavel does NOT state to draw the

navel in, just to " tighten the abs " , but it appears his abs are

continually sucked in. He constantly admonishes the viewers to

contract(?) the abs and glutes when recieving the KB and when pressing

or jerking overhead.

[Contraction does not mean " drawing in " - after all, if you contract the biceps

or pecs they shorten and stand out, not move inwards - the same is true for

all muscles. Pavel is simply stressing the importance of not relaxing

those muscles when you are handling KBs, not the importance of drawing

abs in. Anyway, it is difficult NOT to tense those muscles when you are

raising heavy KBs from the floor or to a position above the head. Actually,

the activity of the glutes generally is quite different during overhead pressing

and jerking. In the former, the glutes play a major role in stabilising the

pelvis,

(since the knee and hip joints have to remain locked during the press),

while in the jerk the glutes (and quads) play a major role in extending the hip

to provide the vertical thrust. Mel Siff]

I personally have stopped trying to do anyting specific with my abs

during squatting or pulling and it has worked well for my back. I am

just beginning KB training and was wondering what others thought of this.

Thank You

Mark Reifkind

Heptagon Individual Fitness

Palo ALto,Ca

USA

[Guest guest]

Dr Siff

<Contraction does not mean " drawing in " - after all, if you contract

the biceps or pecs they shorten and stand out, not move inwards - the same is

true for all muscles .>

Exactly! but observing Pavel's midsection when he " contracts " the abs

you can see the external obliques (Pavel is shirtless and extremely

lean) flex and distend but not the rectus. If anything it does appear

to be " pulled in " . It's just confusing .

Thank You

Mark Reifkind

Heptagon Individual Fitness

Palo ALto,Ca

USA

[Guest guest]

I can't provide any kind of expert biomechanical analysis of what

Pavel is doing in his kettlebell video but, based on reading his

published materials and posts on the Dragondoor discussion forum,

maybe I can provide some insight into his views on ab utilization.

When people ask Pavel about ab utilization during lifting, his usual

advice is to neither suck in the abs nor push them out (when lifting

beltless), but to contract the abs, " As if bracing for a punch--and a

punch can be arranged. " In fact, he suggests having a training

partner poke you in the stomach during a military press to make sure

that you are staying tight.

His emphasis on contracting the abs serves two purposes. One is to

stabilize the spine using intra abdominal pressure. The other is that

he believes that increased tension throughout the body allows you to

exert more force in a given lift.

I have found this to be true in my experience. For instance, if I

reach a sticking point during a KB MP, focusing on contracting my abs

and glutes and screwing my feet into the ground helps me to complete

the lift. It's almost the opposite approach to focusing on the prime

movers in a lift; you focus on contacting everything at once and the

prime movers go along for the ride.

Pavel calls this phenomenon/strategy, " hyperirradiation " . Perhaps Dr.

Siff or other list members could comment on this.

[it appears as if he is avoiding what the physios have been calling this for

years, namely " overflow " , which is one aspect of neuromuscular facilitation

that was even mentioned in the earliest edition of the Knott & Voss textbook

on PNF more than 30 years ago. Essentially it means that the more demanding

a load, the more the body will recruit more distant muscles to assist in the

overall

stabilising and mobilising actions. The existence of this process is a major

reason why I question the validity of " isolationist " training and rehabilitation

in healthy subjects. Mel Siff]

Steve Wolff

Stamford, CT

[Guest guest]

Mark,

For me, tightening the abs basically amounts to " bearing down " and

flexing the entire abdominal area (rectus abdominus, obliques,

everything) very hard. I suppose it's as if I knew someone was going

to hit me somewhere between my chest and groin, but I wasn't sure

where. :-)

Hope that helps,

Vic Holtreman

San Marcos, CA

http://www.holtreman.net/dragondoor.htm

-------

Mark Reifkind wrote:

> Thank you Vic,

>

> Thats what I was looking for, a clarification. Its very hard to tell

> things from video sometimes.

>

> What is exactly meant by " tightening " the abs though? Is it to flex

> the rectus abdominus or the external obliques or what? As far as the

> inhalation and hold with a distended abdomen that has worked very well

> for me in the squat.

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