Re: TUT and Arthur

[Guest guest]

Landau writes:

<< Mel, Arthur did point out several times well after being made aware of

Jonas Gustav Zander's work and Apparatus, that was well documented before Herz.

Jerry Telle:

He must not have tried too hard ! A patent search I did in the early 1970's

picked

up a 1900 cam patent.

Landau:

<Had he known about Zander, he would have not spent so many years on

the development of Nautilus. Many of the problems he encountered would have

been

helped by Zander's previous works. Dr Delorme informed Arthur about

Zander,>

Jerry Telle:

Yeah maybe he would have dropped the idea altogether.

Landau:

<....and Arthur has again written about it several times. >

Jerry Telle:

After he made all his money?

Landau:

<Zander started in the 1850s in Sweden, after finding problems with Pehr

Ling's Manual Systems of Gymnastics. He (Zander) was aware of the problems of

round

pulleys, springs, and rubber cords. He designed a lever system of resistence

apparatus that was used world wide until about the late 1930s, ....... some

were derived from Ling as early as the early 19th century >

Jerry Telle:

Seems like that's long enough to demonstrate that it doesn't work!!

Variable resistance is a great concept--too bad the typical strength curve

changes every rep--10 reps = 's 10 cams(if you can predetermine the curves); 20

if you include the different eccentric curves. Free weights approximates the

athletes changing strength/force expressions *much* better then any cam

machine. Balance is not the only, or even the main, reason free weights are

better !

Jerry Telle

Lakewood, CO

[Guest guest]

Jerry -- Argue the concepts on cams with Arthur, he never said his machines

were ideal, just better than anything that was available at that time. The

cam solution reminds me of someone I met about 7 years ago at one of the

industry trade shows. He was speaking to a friend of mine about designing a

cam of the like you mentioned, it may have been you. However it is your

BELIEF that free weights provide a transferable balance of some type, so why

bother? I will back Arthur as long as I can. He provided rationale in

an " Industry " that was up to its ears in Myths and Superstitions and still

is.

[Don't forget that he added a good few myths of his own. Remember, too, that

several

top rate researchers like Hettinger, Muller and various other Europeans were way

ahead of

in shedding light on those myths. Which original rationale did

provide that didn't already exist in serious strength science quarters, not the

popular muscle magazines? Kindly let us know which myths he dispelled

before other people did. Mel Siff]

Mel -- Arthur often stated that it is the use of the tool, not necessarily

the tool. Arthur sold barbells as well as his machines at one time. I am not

going to belabor the points, but my article Real Life Movements? can be

viewed at my web page at:

http://members.aol.com/exarchives/

[sorry, but this does not answer any of the issues raised in my last letter. I

certainly

did not find any lists of international elite athletes who trained largely on

Nautilus

machines, nor did I find my biomechanics questions addressed anywhere on your

website. Please tell me exactly where they are - maybe I missed them. Mel

Siff]

Supertraining provides me with the on goings of the trade, and I appreciate

that. I will be

addressing many points in November, when I revamp and totally update my

EXERCISE ARCHIVES WEB SITE. For those who were interested, I do have many

Yessis Soviet Journals from around the 1970's.

Landau

Aventura, Florida

[Guest guest]

Mel -- There are many archival tapes relating to the success of elite athletes

in the hey day of Nautilus. I have much in the way of written material to

support this. I have video tapes of, and have viewed meaningful success

stories of many athletes that turned to Nautilus Training and the like from

the 1970s and 80s. You have a personal invitation from me any time you would

like to view these. These are archival tapes that were unavailable to the

public, and many various publications that I have collected in recent years.

They are for private viewing only and in this case I do not have the rights

to publish these documents, out of the respect to the original copyrights of

Nautilus. Your invitation would be accepted, when you are any time near to my

area. I am presently doing more investigation and will have a more complete

library by January 2003.

[Many thanks for the invitation, but the Internet allows us to view any

relevant information immediately. There is no copyright to listing the names of

Olympic champions and international elite athletes who may have used Nautilus

exclusively as their form of supplementary strength training - or summarising

the

way in which they trained with these machines. Moreover, copyright law often

allows you to publish extracts solely for educational, non commercial purposes

(see our archives on this topic). Over to you to see a concise list of

international

athletes who have relied predominantly on Nautilus machines for their

supplementary

strength training! Many of us within minutes could supply a list of dozens of

Olympic athletes who have used free weights; so I am sure that Nautilus could

also supply a similar list of Nautilus trained athletes in no time at all. Note

that a

list of athletes using Nautilus AND free weights is not acceptable, because that

skews any serious analysis.

Next - what about any scientific references which prove that Nautilus machines

offer a superior form of strength training to free weights, as you stated in

your

original letter? So far, all that we have heard is opinion - if Nautilus indeed

is so

emphatically superior, then surely there must be some independent research

which proves it to be so. Mel Siff]

Landau

Aventura, Florida

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

Landau writes:

<< Jerry -- Argue the concepts on cams with Arthur, he never said his

machines were ideal, just better than anything that was available at that

time.>>

I did, one time 10-15 years ago, in Las Vegas. In a face to face with him, I

said

that the concept of a basic or general strength/force curve was totally

erroneous--and even gave him one of my discussions at the time explaining my

research and findings. He said he'd read it and promised to respond ! What do

you

think-- was it ego or intellect that negated that promise ?

Landau:

<<The cam solution reminds me of someone I met about 7 years ago at one of the

industry trade shows. He was speaking to a friend of mine about designing a

cam of the like you mentioned,it may have been you.>>

I don't think its possible--Practically anyway--maybe we did talk and that was

your take-- was it Chicago? A linear translator plus a cam plus an hydraulic

device is

the only way to do it with a machine.

[i have quite objectively read the descriptions and analyses of machine training

by Jerry and Arthur and Jerry's meet scientific standards far more acceptably

than

Arthur's. Jerry is correct that no mechanical cam system can ever offer optimal

training for everyone who uses a given machine. The Nautilus machines, though

manufactured in a far more impressive manner than those of the late 19th

century,

do not advance the basic principle of cam training beyond that old basic level.

Mel Siff]

<< However it is your BELIEF that free weights provide a transferable balance of

some type, so why bother? I will back Arthur as long as I can. He provided

rationale in an " Industry " that was up to its ears in Myths and Superstitions

and still

is. >>

" Transferable balance " ? - I have an idea what you mean here but will wait for

clarification. I admire your convictions and demeanor--especially in light of

all this opposition. This is not a personal attack but it is my " belief " that

I'm right and can prove it to anyone with a basic knowledge of physiology,

biomechanics and an open mind--which you seem to have. Change is a very

difficult proceess especially when one is invested for so long in a concept.

[Maybe will produce those scientific studies which I have repeatedly been

requesting to prove the alleged superiority of Nautilus machines over all other

forms of strength training. Heaven knows, Arthur has been asked for that

same proof for ages, yet the response has invariably been zero or a diatribe

against scientists who apparently just don't understand his genius. Where

is that evidence? Is it protected by some Official Secrets Act? Mel Siff]

perpetuated exaggerated and exacerbated existing " Industry " Myths and

Superstitions "

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

jrtelle@...

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff:

<< Next - what about any scientific references which prove that Nautilus

machines offer a superior form of strength training to free weights, as you

stated in

your original letter? So far, all that we have heard is opinion - if Nautilus

indeed is so emphatically superior, then surely there must be some independent

research

which proves it to be so. Mel Siff] >>

Arthur made the huge mistake of training/testing West Point Cadets with

?? on ?? for ??. I don't know where to find it--the results *as I remember*

them

were a joke -- even with Arthur's silver tongue interpretation.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO

[Guest guest]

Landau writes:

<< In spite of philosophy there may be thousands of applications to " free

weights, " but from what I have seen in recent years, the entire situation has

gotten, well, that may be why Mel wrote his book. I will be fair and observe

the " Sports/Strength " applications at the NSCA convention, where I can see

what you and Mel have to offer. >>

Telle:

I probably wont be there--and you're going to have a tough time with Mel

I think--if I'm right he arms you with all the best ingredients and recipes

to create elite results. Then its up to " whoever' to apply them. I don't ever

remember seeing any specific routines in any of his books or writings. I

havent been to an NSCA in a number of years but believe it to be the premier

event for professionals. That doesnt mean old ignorance wont be lingering.

Ignorance is not necessarily man's evil anchor-- but a given at any point in

time or process. Its only when ignorance is used to shelter ones self from

the light that it buries you.

Amiel 1821-1881 " Man defends himself against the truthas a child does the

medicine, as the man of the platonic cave does against the light. HE DOES NOT

WILLINGLY FOLLOW HIS PATH, HE HAS TO BE DRAGGED ALONG BACKWARDS(my

emphasis) ........... A lively, disinterested persistennt liking for the truth

is extraordinarily rare. Action and faith enslve thought, both of them in

order not to be troubled or inconvenienced by reflection, criticsm and

doubt. " and

" The art of acheiving the true is very little practiced.------We desire, as a

matter of course, the kind of knowledge that strengthens our hand or tongue

and serves our vanity or our desire for power: but the CRITICISM OF

OURSELVES, OF OUR PREJUDICES AND INCLINATIONS, IS ANTIPATHETIC TO US " (my

emphasis)

Landau:

<<So much Arthur bashing going on here, well after he has retired and long

out of the " Scene, " I find it ironically rather convenient these days.>>

Telle:

Well that struck a nerve. Following is what I said in print in the past:

TYPES OF WEIGHT TRAINING, COACH & ATHLETE, May- June, 1977

" the trainee is not really using the variable resistance, there is a coasting

effect.

The rotary equipment compounds the problem because of the " flywheel effect "

produced by the turning of the eccentric pulley and the apparatus attached.

Slowing the movement down reduces momentum, but many believe this slower

method may not be the best training method. " pg 26.

" ...by adding a speed controlling device to an isotonic machine---The advantages

of each system are now present. that is a full range, proportinately

variable, non momentum affected resistance with prestretching " , pg 29.

COMBINING FREE WEIGHTS WITH HYDRAULICS. NSCA Journal February -March 1985

The resistance must match the force output during every phase of every rep

throughout the set,pg 66. Variable resistance which exctly matches the

athletes profile every repetition(varying variable resistance), pg 67.

EQUIPMENT--WHO TO BELIEVE. AMERICAN FITNESS QUARTERLY(national champ isuue

month??)1966 " During a set the force curves and level of force change

almost every rep, and to make matters worse, the curves change from training

session to training session as the athlete improves. pg 40

MACHINES--ARE THEY BETTER THAN FREE WEIGHTS? IRON MAN MAGAZINE Oct 1988 - " the

Nautilus cam never matches the force requirements of the muscle, " pg 24.

BEYOND 2001 THE NEXT REAL STEP. Book Jerry Telle 1994. " There is no such

thing as a standard force curve for any given muscular movement " . This book

is out of print--very short initial run. The latest unfinished, unedited

version is available if interested, as is a rather good but short intro

video. Email me if interested..

DEATH OF A CAM. MUSCLE MEDIA 2000 . April 1996. " One of the greatest

marketing victories in the history of the Iron game was the variable

resistance cam. Although he didnt invent this--Arthur -- " pg101. I

go on to tell how Herz's 1901 patent sounds much like

verbiage-- " momentary tension " etc. The article continues on about my beliefs

and finishes with " The more things change the more they stay the

same'------its obvious that efforts to change the nature of of our workouts

with variable resistance cams brought us back, full circle, to the most

effective bodybuilding and strength equipment of the 20th century: free

weights. " (Kim Goss did a great job editing this for me)

In all candor I thought the cam and universality of strength expressions idea

would die out a long time ago. I dont think these attacks are as much against

the man as the principle--and since and Nautilus are metaphors for the

concept, they get the arrows. On the other hand, it didnt help much that he

regarded everyone who didnt agree with him as idiots and fools--like I

(Goss) said in the MM2000 article " the more things change, the more they stay

the same " . What went--came.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

jrtelle@...