Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 In regards to this individiual: Medications aren't working for this individual becuase they aren't getting to the root of the real problem. There may be a chemical component, but it's only part of the depression. There is obviously a long history of severe depressive episodes, and they need to be dealt with by a psychologist-that is, after a full medical workup to rule out any serious medical cause. After this, psychotherapy could get to the heart of this individual's problems. Good luck to this person! Gilbert Doctoral candidate in Clinical Psychology Nova Southeastern University Ft Lauderdale, FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 > For years, I can't seem to put together successful, CONSISTENT > training. Why not? And what is the cause of your depression? Do you have other, conflicting things, that are higher up on your priority list? If you are depressed over training problems, then perhaps you need to make them more of a priority. Max Kuenkel Tacoma, WA > Someone sent us this message: > > Someone I respect a lot referred me to the Supertraining list. I am at my > wits end. I was training fairly well for an upcoming ultramarathon and the > bottom just fell out. This is a pattern I have had for years, but now it > seems worse. For years, I can't seem to put together successful, CONSISTENT > training. I am very depressed and have been binge-eating on junk. I have > been treated for depression and am now on 200mg of Luvox. I have tried over > 25 different medications and some help for a while, but then poop out. Some > have had terrible side effects, especially for working out. > > I cry and sleep a lot. My athletic friends are going full force with their > activities and gearing up for fall races and I just want to die. > > Can any of you please help with any suggestions? > > --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Well, the subject of this message makes it " confession time " for me...at least the " depressed " part does. I get depressed when it seems to me that a particular muscle group is not developing in keeping with the exercises I give it. At this time it is a matter of the legs. My legs have nowhere near the degree of development I wish them to have now, or, especially at the time of my next contest. I look at pix of my former contests and see my legs as the part most needing bulk. I look at the mirror now and do not see sufficient gain. When I do the various legs exercises, the thighs extensions go very well as do the incline press, but the squats and lunges do not go well at all. In them, it seems that I never will be able to increase the weights. That brings on the depression and the depression takes from the required focus. I am told that I should not worry about it, that my concern is a sign of " weakness " . I don't feel that it is, so I just keep my concern inside me and that does not help alleviate the depression. Gosh, I really don't want to put my name and city on this confession, but the rules of this site require them, so....... Pasco Dallas, Texas ------------- From: agent8698 Do you have other, conflicting things, that are higher up on your priority list? If you are depressed over training problems, then perhaps you need to make them more of a priority. Max Kuenkel Tacoma, WA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Max Kuenkel <agent8698@e...> wrote: > > For years, I can't seem to put together successful, CONSISTENT > > training. > > Why not? > And what is the cause of your depression? > > Do you have other, conflicting things, that are higher up on your > priority list? If you are depressed over training problems, then > perhaps you need to make them more of a priority. I wish I knew. I have no other priorities, have plenty of time and support. Asking why I just don't step it up seems flippant. I become over come with exhaustion. Workouts become more difficult therefore, I dread them. Weight is up due to binge eating. Please don't tell me to stop binge eating. I haven't been able to do that, either. When I get in shape, if I ever do, I hope to see your sarcastic butt out on the trail, 'cause I'll whip it. I don't need this kind of " pull yourself up by the bootstraps " help. You have no idea what depression and binge eating disorder is like. [Max's letter didn't come across to me as being sarcastic or loaded with any undertones of criticism. It appeared that he genuinely was requesting more information in order for him to help in a more balanced manner. Maybe Max has far greater problems in his life than both of us put together, so nobody can at this stage say that " my problems are worse than yours " . However, I could without fear of much contradiction state that my paraplegic wife who lives with very high levels of chronic pain, the total inability to run as you do, whose mind can go way beyond any normal person's level of depression and who has huge medical problems every day, has a far better idea than most about problems of the mind and body. Despite all of what she has to endure daily, she is very rarely depressed and is a great inspiration to all who meet her. You will find that people will clamour to help and be kind to you if you choose to be less sensitive, more loving and more receptive to their suggestions. Your last paragraph may well reveal some of the more pertinent issues which contribute to your depression and exhaustion. Mel Siff] Sandi Beal New Jersey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Sandi Beale writes: > > For years, I can't seem to put together successful, CONSISTENT > > training. Max Kuenkel wrote > Why not? > And what is the cause of your depression? > > Do you have other, conflicting things, that are higher up on your > priority list? If you are depressed over training problems, then > perhaps you need to make them more of a priority. <<I wish I knew. I have no other priorities, have plenty of time and support. >> I repeat my thought that it seems you've had some chronic problems with depression and binge eating. From the very little I know about you, I can make the basic assumption that your fitness competitions and achievements comprise much of your self value. Your husband, your friends, and your environment reinforce this belief. You've stated that you have no financial difficulties, a nice life overall, and no children. It seems as though all is well, yet the absence of these things seems to strengthen your focus on your fitness accomplishments. Perhaps fitness isn't the most meaningful part of your life, yet your life seems to revolve around it anyway. Could this be a possibe origin of your depression? In turn,the depression causes a nasty cycle of binge eating-a mere symptom of your mood. Unfortunately, the binge eating counteracts the very part of your life that you deem meaningful, and this perpetuates the downward spiral. Are you running such great lengths and working out to compensate for the binges, or is this a long time habit in an honest quest for your athletic goals? Things will get better. You need to see a psychologist, who can better help you get to the real root of this problem. There's a big difference between psychiatrists and psychologists, and I think that, based on your comments, you will like the differences. Again,I know very little about you, but these are my thoughts. Best of luck, Gilbert Nova Southeastern University Ft Lauderdale, FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Sandi Beale wrote: > . . . My husband also theorizes that perhaps ultra events mess me > up too much. I ran a 50k on hard trail in the first part of August and > haven't been the same since. He has noticed that I often " fall apart " after > hard marathons, ultras, etc. . . . . Your immune system is practically non-functioning (don't take that *too* literally, but there's something to it) after a marathon. Stay away from contagion.....;-) Does this affect your moods? Do you swing up and down? If you participate in an extreme event, it would be natural to then experience both physical and mental depression afterwards. Is it worth the price? If you led a more normal life, without the highs being so high, then your lows might not be so low. A rather normal life does have some advantages....;-) Chronic depression is no laughing matter, and can have serious consequences. > . . . Also, no professional I've seen > respects my athletic goals. They consider my running compulsive and not > healthy. Well, try to run a marathon on 20 minutes of exercise per day, > three times week. Good luck to them! No doubt about it Sandi, you're a strong gal, but they are right. That being said, quality of life means a lot. Even though most all sports, when taken to an extreme (which a marathon is), are unhealthy and risky, they mean a lot for people's *perceived* quality of life. But your quality of life isn't exactly very good right now. That's what I get out of your message. But can you live without it? Just how compulsive is your need to train, compete, run, etc.? These are just a few things to think over, and you've probably heard this all before. If an " addiction " doesn't cause any problems with your quality of life, or your relationships with others, then no problemo. But........ Regards, Lee, PT The Quack-Files http://www.quackfiles.com Anti-Quackery Resources http://quackbusters.quackfiles.com Anti-Quackery Ring - Join now! http://g.webring.com/hub?ring=antiquackerysite Danish http://dansk.quackfiles.com Submit your site!! http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/xlinks.html Elfred Lee (my brother, and a great artist) http://www.geocities.com/elfred_lee --------- > I welcome advice from you and the list and am not concerned about > confidentiality. > > Dear Dr. Siff, > > Thank you for posting my letter on the Supertraining list - here are some > more details to help anyone understand my case a little better: > > There is not a lot of stress in my life, at least what it is considered > stress in our society today, and I am grateful for that. Finances ok, job > ok, no kids, etc. I guess if boredom is a stress, I have that. I find > social obligations, esp.. with family stressful. I find society's obsession > with thinness, esp.. for women, stressful. I have a wonderful husband, but I > am terribly concerned about my body around him. He is very fit, as all of > our friends, and I find the pressure to " keep up " stressful. Right now my > weight is up and I want to hide from him and everyone. > > My nutrition is awful. I know healthy foods and try to eat them on a daily > basis. I always have fresh fruit, salads, whole grains on hand. I try to > " diet " by measuring things, " forbidding " things, but lately it has only > lasted for a day or two. I often have overwhelming cravings for baked goods > such as donuts, cookies and cakes, etc. and I binge on these items to a > horrendous extent. I know they are bad for me, but I can't stop myself. > Obviously, the depression and fatigue are worse after binge episodes. There > were certain periods of time, where medication helped with my bingeing, but > unfortunately the effects did not last. > > I am sleeping much too much. I fall asleep about 9pm and often have a lot of > difficulty getting up for work by 7am. In the past, certain medications have > caused insomnia and I would go for weeks at a time getting up in the middle > of the night because I could not sleep. I wonder sometimes if all the ADs, > " mood stabilizers " , etc that I have taken in the past 6 years have royally > screwed me up. My husband also theorizes that perhaps ultra events mess me > up too much. I ran a 50k on hard trail in the first part of August and > haven't been the same since. He has noticed that I often " fall apart " after > hard marathons, ultras, etc. > > My training program has fallen off the cliff. I was running between 8 - 12 > miles during the week and 10 -13 miles on Sat with a 4-hour hilly trail > run/hike on Sundays and lifting weights at the gym for 70 minutes 3 times a > week. The past 3 weeks I've taken many days completely off. The past week I > spent mostly in bed. I called in sick 3 days. Yesterday, I tried " jogging " > for an hour and it was difficult. My gym workouts are very difficult as > well. I can't lift as much and have to rest more between sets. I'm normally > fairly strong for a girl and lift serious weights, not those little itty > bitty things that some girls do. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, > but I've been called a " monster " at that gym.) > > I promised my husband that I would continue to work with my psychiatrist, but > I am frustrated with this profession as a whole, although he is a really > nice man and I know he wants to help, but the " help " is always from the > prescription pad. I suppose that I do need medication, but the side effects and/or > waiting for things to work are frustrating. Also, no professional I've seen > respects my athletic goals. They consider my running compulsive and not > healthy. Well, try to run a marathon on 20 minutes of exercise per day, > three times week. Good luck to them! > > Thank you. > > Sandi Beale *Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Hi Sandi I'm hesitant to offer too much in the way of " advice " , as I'm all too familiar with people who try to " help " but only worsen matters. Just to let you know, I've gone through (and am still dealing with the remnants of) a major depression that lasted years. It royally sucked, and some of the things you mentioned struck a chord, so I'll offer a few observations here. It really sounds to me like you have an issue with either self esteem, or a related area. Have your therapists in the past tried that avenue? For that matter, are you seeing a therapist? Again, from personal experience, I can say I feel there are tons of them who plain stink, like personal trainers, BUT if you keep switching until you find a good one, the hunt will be worth it. If you have one now and they don't seem to be helping after a few sessions, try a new one! It also sounds like you might be doing a bit much on the training routine. Back when I was cycling, I was so in love with it I trained WAY too much. I eventually found (after years of over training and much time spent on plateaus) that a more strategic way of training would profit me more in the end. Intervals for an hour instead of 4 hour rides every day, for example. By using training methods like sprints, intervals, etc, I was able to cut back to only one big endurance ride per week, and get faster and stronger as a whole. Are you training like this? If so, disregard my babble here... Some good messageboards for depression are: http://depression.about.com/mpboards.htm http://groups.msn.com/DepressionWebCommunity/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en- us http://nicole97.valuehost.co.uk/forum/phpBB2/index.php http://forums.delphiforums.com/beatthebeast/start If your husband would like a resource for spouses/family/friends of people with depression, have him check out www.wingofmadness.com , it's a great place to talk about this stuff with folks who know from first hand experience. My wife posts there regularly. Again, we can talk training all day long, but it really sounds like your problem with your training is rooted in something far more important, namely mental health. Fix that first! Feel free to email me if you want to discuss how I coped with this personally. Nino Califano Hollywood, FL Kalamath@... ----- Original Message ----- From: sandi.beale@... I welcome advice from you and the list and am not concerned about confidentiality. Dear Dr. Siff, Thank you for posting my letter on the Supertraining list - here are some more details to help anyone understand my case a little better: There is not a lot of stress in my life, at least what it is considered stress in our society today, and I am grateful for that. Finances ok, job ok, no kids, etc. I guess if boredom is a stress, I have that. I find social obligations, esp.. with family stressful. I find society's obsession with thinness, esp.. for women, stressful. I have a wonderful husband, but I am terribly concerned about my body around him. He is very fit, as all of our friends, and I find the pressure to " keep up " stressful. Right now my weight is up and I want to hide from him and everyone. My nutrition is awful. I know healthy foods and try to eat them on a daily basis. I always have fresh fruit, salads, whole grains on hand. I try to " diet " by measuring things, " forbidding " things, but lately it has only lasted for a day or two. I often have overwhelming cravings for baked goods such as donuts, cookies and cakes, etc. and I binge on these items to a horrendous extent. I know they are bad for me, but I can't stop myself. Obviously, the depression and fatigue are worse after binge episodes. There were certain periods of time, where medication helped with my bingeing, but unfortunately the effects did not last. I am sleeping much too much. I fall asleep about 9pm and often have a lot of difficulty getting up for work by 7am. In the past, certain medications have caused insomnia and I would go for weeks at a time getting up in the middle of the night because I could not sleep. I wonder sometimes if all the ADs, " mood stabilizers " , etc that I have taken in the past 6 years have royally screwed me up. My husband also theorizes that perhaps ultra events mess me up too much. I ran a 50k on hard trail in the first part of August and haven't been the same since. He has noticed that I often " fall apart " after hard marathons, ultras, etc. My training program has fallen off the cliff. I was running between 8 - 12 miles during the week and 10 -13 miles on Sat with a 4-hour hilly trail run/hike on Sundays and lifting weights at the gym for 70 minutes 3 times a week. The past 3 weeks I've taken many days completely off. The past week I spent mostly in bed. I called in sick 3 days. Yesterday, I tried " jogging " for an hour and it was difficult. My gym workouts are very difficult as well. I can't lift as much and have to rest more between sets. I'm normally fairly strong for a girl and lift serious weights, not those little itty bitty things that some girls do. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've been called a " monster " at that gym.) I promised my husband that I would continue to work with my psychiatrist, but I am frustrated with this profession as a whole, although he is a really nice man and I know he wants to help, but the " help " is always from the prescription pad. I suppose that I do need medication, but the side effects and/or waiting for things to work are frustrating. Also, no professional I've seen respects my athletic goals. They consider my running compulsive and not healthy. Well, try to run a marathon on 20 minutes of exercise per day, three times week. Good luck to them! *Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Sandi, If your psychiatrist isn't helping you, by all means go and get another therapist! I suffered from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder for 13 years before I found what worked for me (which was Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy). If you feel like your treatment is stuck in a rut and you aren't improving, you have every right to go and find someone that can help you--don't be satisfied with a doctor who wants to " help you get by " --find a doctor that wants to make you BETTER! Have faith--there are people out there who can help you! Lambdin Louisville, KY *Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Mel Siff: <Max's letter didn't come across to me as being sarcastic or loaded with any undertones of criticism > I'd say thats because you arent suffering from the effects of depression and/or self esteem disorder Mel. Also, pointing out the fact that other people are in worse situations and are dealing with it is certainly NOT the way to help a depressed individual. This points out very clearly why Sandi needs the support of a group tuned to these disorders and not Supertraining. IF this were an issue of training then yes, this would be a good forum (albiet if you are somewhat thick skinned, as it seems, as in all scientific communities folks either dont pull punches and/or aren't very sensitive). Sandi is obviously hurting, and as a community I hope we can be supportive in helping direct her to a resource thats more appropriately equipped to help her. [Mel Siff: I am sorry, Nino, but lashing out unthinkingly at someone else even if you are hurting is not the best way to encourage further help. Max was NOT being sarcastic, but Sandi (and I refuse to be politically correct here) was overreacting, and it does not help her by ignoring the fact that other people also have self-esteem and needs that deserve to be respected. Max took his valuable time to see what he could do to help and his letter showed no traces of any malice. I feel very genuinely for Sandi and anyone else with physical or psychological problems, but I also understand that cognitive approaches and " tough love " sometimes can be more appropriate than sheer pharmacology, " bunnny hugging " , cushion bashing, primal scream, ECT or whatever one's therapeutic adviser is most familiar with. By the way, if you were a little more aware of my own life story, you would be reasonably aware that I have undergone and still experience some very serious, life and quality of life threatening events involving both my wife and I, so I am not being an uneducated unsympathetic. I can assure you that suddenly being reduced to a frail shadow of a human from being a highly competitive athlete and extremely high energy person by a near fatal heart attack and major surgery, as well as still having less than 50 % of my former cardiac function, is enough to stress anyone's mind to the depths of depression, especially when preceded by several family bereavements. Not knowing whether any chest pains, dizziness or breathlessness indicate something pretty innocuous or another impending major cardiac event is not something which causes much joy or elation in one's daily life. The dreadful suffering that my paraplegic wife undergoes almost every day of her life is another event that could drive both of us to depression and irritability, but we are totally and utterly convinced of a higher purpose in life and the rewards that life gives you if you reach out to help others and stop focusing too much on oneself. Of course, Sandi and others in states of unhappiness and depression will profit enormously from support groups, but the ultimate aim is not to offer endless support and politically correct incantations, but to liberate the person from all support and become as independent as possible. And this I say with plenty of experience in dealing with people close to me who have gone to the utter depths of depression and who have needed constant support, rescue and understanding all along the slow way to recovery. Academically, I also spent years working in neuropsychology and completed a Masters in that field, so I have at least tried to match practice with some science. By mentioning my wife's state, I was not intending to iterate that " there is always someone worse off " , but to offer an example, a case of inspiration to help one to cope - my wife's example is a source of great inspiration to me and I wished to share it with Sandi. My wife often says to me that she and other paraplegics often thank God that they are not quadriplegics, so there are always reasons for gratitude all around us - why not use these opportunities instead of dismissing them and saying " nothing will work for me, I am worse than anyone else and I have tried all that there is on Earth. " ? Sandi has so much going for her in all walks of life, so there is wonderful scene waiting to unfold if she is empowered to take independent, disciplined, spiritual and joyous charge of the opportunities that she may not even fully appreciate at the moment. ] Nino Califano Hollywood, FL ---------- From: omxbeal Max Kuenkel <agent8698@e...> wrote: > > For years, I can't seem to put together successful, CONSISTENT > > training. > > Why not? > And what is the cause of your depression? > > Do you have other, conflicting things, that are higher up on your > priority list? If you are depressed over training problems, then > perhaps you need to make them more of a priority. I wish I knew. I have no other priorities, have plenty of time and support. Asking why I just don't step it up seems flippant. I become over come with exhaustion. Workouts become more difficult therefore, I dread them. Weight is up due to binge eating. Please don't tell me to stop binge eating. I haven't been able to do that, either. When I get in shape, if I ever do, I hope to see your sarcastic butt out on the trail, 'cause I'll whip it. I don't need this kind of " pull yourself up by the bootstraps " help. You have no idea what depression and binge eating disorder is like. [Max's letter didn't come across to me as being sarcastic or loaded with any undertones of criticism. It appeared that he genuinely was requesting more information in order for him to help in a more balanced manner. Maybe Max has far greater problems in his life than both of us put together, so nobody can at this stage say that " my problems are worse than yours " . However, I could without fear of much contradiction state that my paraplegic wife who lives with very high levels of chronic pain, the total inability to run as you do, whose mind can go way beyond any normal person's level of depression and who has huge medical problems every day, has a far better idea than most about problems of the mind and body. Despite all of what she has to endure daily, she is very rarely depressed and is a great inspiration to all who meet her. You will find that people will clamour to help and be kind to you if you choose to be less sensitive, more loving and more receptive to their suggestions. Your last paragraph may well reveal some of the more pertinent issues which contribute to your depression and exhaustion. Mel Siff] Sandi Beal *Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Sandi's comment that she was totally " done in " after a marathon is not unusual. I have a friend who used to compete in these; she was a natural runner. She would go out for practice runs and thought nothing of a 20 mile jaunt through the back country. However, even for her, a race, with the the pressure on rather than just a pleasant skip through the woods, took it's toll. She was literally out of it for at least a week. As she got older, it started to mess up her hormone profile and she developed an eating disorder, although it wasn't the binge type. She decided to stop competing and it's made a big difference. She still goes for her runs, but it's at her own time and her own pace. She also got her hormones back on track which made a huge difference. I had another friend (who is thinking about running in a marathon) tell me about an acquaintence who told her that after a marathon, her whole body ached for several days. She said that her upper body, especially her traps and arms, started to hurt by the last third of the race. I know how I feel when I get overzealous in the gym on occasion. I think it's like young people drinking -- after awhile you realize it's not smart and the occasions become less and less. I had another friend who put herself through two bodybuilding competition diets and competed. It took her at least three months afterwards to get her body back on track. I was her e-mail confidant and sort of a shoulder to cry on during her dieting. It was not a good scene and I tried hard to talk her out of doing the second show. Although she was more experienced during the second diet, she gave it up. Not worth it. I have another friend who won a Mr. Iowa title; that's how gifted he was. However he told me that was his first and last show because he just couldn't handle the diet. I contrast this to others I know that seem to do just fine with this sort of thing. But if you read the above stories, and are standing back from a different vantage point you are probably asking yourself " Why are these people putting themselves through this? " That is a question you must answer. I agree with the advice from others that if your current doctor is throwing medication at you and little else, that you need to start " doc shopping. " I know what you mean about doctors not understanding a person's desire to train. But if it's a compulsion, then it takes over your life. I would also suggest, from one woman to another, that you stop believing the media hype about extreme thinness or the fitness model look. I workout in a gym full of women who are on this sort of treadmill who are trying to make a living from it. These gals do not look healthy and they are doing things and taking things that are going to not only derail their careers, but their lives, if they are not careful. It's interesting to contrast those who come to this naturally, or at least mostly naturally, to those who have to jump through too many hoops. I am not a natural athlete nor do I have a body that responds in such a manner that I am magazine cover material. However, I still look good and have a lot more functional strength than I would have otherwise. I won't say I didn't go through some " why me-ing? " in not being able to achieve a certain look, but I realized that I had other talents. If I spent as much time developing them as I did worrying about why I had more fat on my thighs than I thought, I could be quite successful, albeit in a different area. I'm sure you're the same way. Everyone has God given talents. Unfortunately we often want to exceed at things for which we don't have much ability. If excelling in sports is not your genetic bag, but you enjoy the competition and can do it for yourself, fine (as long as it whatever it is doesn't string you out for weeks after), but don't try to make yourself into someone else. I might also suggest a change in sports. You say you are naturally quite strong. Why don't you give powerlifting a try? Then you won't need to worry about dieting or being terribly thin (a little extra body fat actually adds some strength). The powerlifting community is delightful and supportive. Sure, you're going to find gals in your weight class who are at the top of their game, but most compete because it's fun and challenging. I agree with others on this list that you need to find yourself another therapist. I would also suggest that if this has not been done, that you have a hormone profile run. These babies can really mess you up if they are out of kilter. I would also hope that you will learn to accept yourself for what you are; different from others, an individual in your own right. When you can do this and allow yourself to be yourself, and stop trying to force yourself to follow some written-out plan to the letter, and forgive yourself when you don't do exactly as you think you should, you will be much happier. No one is perfect and they would be very dull, indeed, if they were. The very best of luck to you, Sandi. I know everyone on ST is pulling for you. Rosemary Vernon, Editor Dolfzine On-Line Fitness, Inc.® A Not-For-Profit Corporation www.dolfzine.com Marina del Rey, CA IronRoses@... http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Thank you for your thoughtful posts. I've received more great, thought provoking advice here than I've had from all the Dr's I've seen in the past 6 years. I'm overcome with the thought and care a lot of you have put into your emails and don't feel so alone or as much as a " wuss " anymore. Sandi Beale New Hope, PA sandi.beale@... Fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 My apologies to Max - and Dr Siff's reply was correct and an eye-opener. Sandi Beale, New Hope PA sandi.beale@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Thanks for the feedback and the support, Nina. I'm new to the board and Max's post was the first I read during a particularly bad day. I did overreact and wrote some things I shouldn't have and I have apologized. I am overly sensitive but have felt worse by those who don't understand depression. My priorities are to obtain a healthy lifestyle free of depression and binge eating in order to the appreciate and enjoy the many gifts I do have including my family and friends. Yes, I'd also very much like to find the correct fitness regime best suited for me, or more importantly, the most enjoyable. Sandi Beale PA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Mel Siff: <Max's letter didn't come across to me as being sarcastic or loaded with any undertones of criticism > Nino Califano wrote: <I'd say thats because you arent suffering from the effects of depression and/or self esteem disorder Mel. Also, pointing out the fact that other people are in worse situations and are dealing with it is certainly NOT the way to help a depressed individual. This points out very clearly why Sandi needs the support of a group tuned to these disorders and not Supertraining. IF this were an issue of training then yes, this would be a good forum (albiet if you are somewhat thick skinned, as it seems, as in all scientific communities folks either dont pull punches and/or aren't very sensitive). Sandi is obviously hurting, and as a community I hope we can be supportive in helping direct her to a resource thats more appropriately equipped to help her.> Mel Siff: <I am sorry, Nino, but lashing out unthinkingly at someone else even if you are hurting is not the best way to encourage further help. Max was NOT being sarcastic, but Sandi (and I refuse to be politically correct here) was overreacting, and it does not help her by ignoring the fact that other people also have self-esteem and needs that deserve to be respected. Max took his valuable time to see what he could do to help and his letter showed no traces of any malice. I feel very genuinely for Sandi and anyone else with physical or psychological problems, but I also understand that cognitive approaches and " tough love " sometimes can be more appropriate than sheer pharmacology, " bunnny hugging " , cushion bashing, primal scream, ECT or whatever one's therapeutic adviser is most familiar with. By the way, if you were a little more aware of my own life story, you would be reasonably aware that I have undergone and still experience some very serious, life and quality of life threatening events involving both my wife and I, so I am not being an uneducated unsympathetic. I can assure you that suddenly being reduced to a frail shadow of a human from being a highly competitive athlete and extremely high energy person by a near fatal heart attack and major surgery, as well as still having less than 50 % of my former cardiac function, is enough to stress anyone's mind to the depths of depression, especially when preceded by several family bereavements. Not knowing whether any chest pains, dizziness or breathlessness indicate something pretty innocuous or another impending major cardiac event is not something which causes much joy or elation in one's daily life. The dreadful suffering that my paraplegic wife undergoes almost every day of her life is another event that could drive both of us to depression and irritability, but we are totally and utterly convinced of a higher purpose in life and the rewards that life gives you if you reach out to help others and stop focusing too much on oneself. > I am very sorry to hear about your wife's condition and truly admire the both of you for coping so well. I am truly grateful everyday for my physical abilities/gifts. However, I think everyone's brain is wired differently and some are naturally more upbeat or depressed regardless of their circumstances. That doesn't mean that I think depression, negative thinking patterns, etc. cannot be helped or even reversed because people do get better. I just haven't been able to do so, so far. [You are suggesting that most behaviour lies in one's nature, one's physiology, than one's nurture, upbringing and life experiences. Life is more a mixture of nature and nurture and our coping relies very heavily on what we have learned from powerfully practical spiritual and emotional upbringing. Not a day goes by that I don't give huge thanks for even the simplest things like being able to use a bathroom or dress myself unassisted, walk freely and be able to type on this computer to speak to therest of you. Blessings do not lie in one's mansion, one's car, one's fame or fortune, but in the tiniest things which allow one to live and love the most basic things of daily life. None of this lies in any specific religion or philosophical system, but a personal revelation which leads you to a higher purpose, love and respect for all that is around us. The writings and sayings of the great sages and masters who came before us just point the way and it is up to us to follow those " road signs " to the highest possible goal, with the least possible harm being done to others and our environment along the way. Mel Siff] I don't deny the self absorption of this and detest it. I'm not a complete selfless head case, however. I have reached out and helped others, maybe not on a grand scale, admittedly. But there are things in my life I am passionate for and do my part to fight for, animal rights, human rights, etc. Most of my support is letters to elected officials and generous contibutions to charities that I feel help those most in need and have nothing to do with me personally. My husband and I are not the least bit interested in trappings of " success " such as luxury cars, vacations, jewelry, etc even though we can afford these things. I have been a good ear for many of my friends, provide thoughtful advice and think of their welfare and happiness often. However, in the grip of deprssion, where often my crying spells are rampant, I isolate and avoid others and focus on myself. Why? Because I want it to stop in order for me to be ABLE to be a good friend, wife, etc. I feel I'm doing others a service when I hide because I don't want them to be subject to my behavior or make them uncomfortable. Who wants to be around a crying fool? Mel Siff: <Of course, Sandi and others in states of unhappiness and depression will profit enormously from support groups, but the ultimate aim is not to offer endless support and politically correct incantations, but to liberate the person from all support and become as independent as possible. And this I say with plenty of experience in dealing with people close to me who have gone to the utter depths of depression and who have needed constant support, rescue and understanding all along the slow way to recovery. > I would love nothing more than to be as independent as possible. <Academically, I also spent years working in neuropsychology and completed a Masters in that field, so I have at least tried to match practice with some science. By mentioning my wife's state, I was not intending to iterate that " there is always someone worse off " , but to offer an example, a case of inspiration to help one to cope - my wife's example is a source of great inspiration to me and I wished to share it with Sandi. My wife often says to me that she and other paraplegics often thank God that they are not quadriplegics, so there are always reasons for gratitude all around us - why not use these opportunities instead of dismissing them and saying " nothing will work for me, I am worse than anyone else and I have tried all that there is on Earth. " ? > I don't recall ever saying " I'm worse off than anyone else. " In my times of frustration, and due to the fact that I have seen many psychiatrists and pychologists, been on close to 30 different meds, yes, I have expressed that I thing the nothing will work for me. However, as pathetic and self absorbed as that might be, it is much different than " I'm worse off. . . " [i was not referring to you, but to the generic situation where that sort of comment is often made. Mel Siff] Mel Siff: <Sandi has so much going for her in all walks of life, so there is wonderful scene waiting to unfold if she is empowered to take independent, disciplined, spiritual and joyous charge of the opportunities that she may not even fully appreciate at the moment. > I welcome the empowerment to achieve the above. Sandi Beale PA ---------- From: omxbeal Max Kuenkel <agent8698@e...> wrote: > > > For years, I can't seem to put together successful, CONSISTENT > > > training. > > > > Why not? > > And what is the cause of your depression? > > > > Do you have other, conflicting things, that are higher up on your > > priority list? If you are depressed over training problems, then > > perhaps you need to make them more of a priority. > > > I wish I knew. I have no other priorities, have plenty of time and > support. > > Asking why I just don't step it up seems flippant. I become over > come with exhaustion. Workouts become more difficult therefore, I > dread them. Weight is up due to binge eating. Please don't tell me > to stop binge eating. I haven't been able to do that, either. > > When I get in shape, if I ever do, I hope to see your sarcastic butt > out on the trail, 'cause I'll whip it. I don't need this kind > of " pull yourself up by the bootstraps " help. You have no idea what > depression and binge eating disorder is like. > > [Max's letter didn't come across to me as being sarcastic or loaded with > any undertones of criticism. It appeared that he genuinely was requesting > more information in order for him to help in a more balanced manner. > Maybe Max has far greater problems in his life than both of us put > together, so nobody can at this stage say that " my problems are worse > than yours " . However, I could without fear of much contradiction state that > my paraplegic wife who lives with very high levels of chronic pain, the total inability > to run as you do, whose mind can go way beyond any normal person's level of > depression and who has huge medical problems every day, has a far better idea > than most about problems of the mind and body. Despite all of what she has > to endure daily, she is very rarely depressed and is a great inspiration to all > who meet her. You will find that people will clamour to help and be kind to you if you > choose to be less sensitive, more loving and more receptive to their suggestions. > Your last paragraph may well reveal some of the more pertinent issues which > contribute to your depression and exhaustion. Mel Siff] > > Sandi Beal > *Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 << I am overly sensitive but have felt worse by those who don't understand depression. >> see if this feels familiar--you dont know from one day to the next how your " e going to feel, act or think--one day(minute) you can get things done the next none--sometimes you feel like your thoughts are ensconced in cold molasses. Will power--whats that? The more you " will " your self to get control over it--the worse it gets? If you didnt get any hits--I dont understand your situation. If you did see any similarities--KNOW THIS its a combination of thought and chemical imbalance--nuero transmitter and endocrine and well all of them--what the initial cause was will probably never be understood. What is understood(somewhat?) is the interplay between thought and chemical(as metaphors at least). Sorta like 2 sharks consumming each other. I have a vague experience of your position, but would never have the arrogance or ignorance to lay out advice other than what that Doctoral Psych student? suggested--find someone who knows about this--and do alot of asking around first--anyone who looks down on you for who you are doesnt deserve your consideration. (I guess that is advice after all--but I suggest you consider it) I pass this on in deference WITH your situation--I have some mix of ADD and bi-polar. Jerry Telle Lakewood CO USA jrtelle@... .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Dear Sandi, I myself have had some periods of moderate depression, binge eating, and have been a dedicated athlete most of my life. I will in short give you an account of what worked for me hoping it will in some way benefit you.. My binge eating was a source of relief for me, it worsened when I decided only to eat healthy to help my basketball.. What I found is as soon forbid myself anything I end up in a " binge " mode. My way of overcomeing this was to make an agreement with myself: I would eat whatever I wanted for a month and not allow myself to feel guilty. After about three weeks the foods that once seemed desireable wasn't anymore, and I had gained considerable mass and strength. I do not allow myself to fell guilty; I am an adult and nobody (not even myself;)) is going to make me feel guilty! With regards to training, I used to train for aesthetics (looking good on the beach)- I never could seem to stay focused. My solution was to shift from body building to powerlifting and most importantly get a training partner. We enjoy training, competition and help each other. So try doing some type of training you enjoy and focus on the intrinsic value of the activity ( no matter what -it is only the type of training you do that works!) and get a partner for your workouts so you can support each other.. Hope this helps... And by the way: your husband loves you, your entire being. You weighing 5 pounds more or less doesen´t change the depth of his love. Poul Hansen, Copenhagen Denmark * We Remember 9-11: All those thousands of innocent people lost and all the families whose lives were changed forever by the hand of evil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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