RE: Flywheel Training Machines

[Guest guest]

The Yo-Yo is an inventing of Hans Berg and Per Tesch. Per wrote the

book: " Muscle meets magnet " (now published at Human Kinetics under a

different title) he analyses the effects of important weight exercises

by MRI, and wrote a chapter in the book: Strength and power in sport

(P.V.Komi).

He is an outstanding exercise scientist with an interest in musclefibres

and the effects of training ( type in his name at PubMed).

[Dr Per Tesch is indeed a very erudite scientist, but those books were written

years after the use of inertial training machines was written about in Russia.

Does what you have written suggest that those two invented inertial training

before scientists such as Zatsiorsky and Verkhoshansky were using them in

Russia? Mel Siff]

Working for NASA one of the main issues is to find an effective way to

maintain muscular strength under microgravity-weightlessness.

Since free weights don't work, for obvious reasons, they tried

electrostim, the penguin suit, elastic bands, but these were not

effective enough.

[The story goes that small isokinetic devices were also devised and

decided upon instead of inertial devices. Does anyone know the true

details about the design and use of strength training machines in

space? Mel Siff]

The simple concept of the flywheel solved the problem:

Light, since the wheels are synthetic (weight is an important issue too

in space travel)

Versatile (most important exercises can be done and muscle groups can be

trained using this principle.

Take an exercise on a cable machine, e.g. seated rowing, adding the

load that the concentric movement is heavy, the eccentric part of the

movement is hardly a sufficient load for stimulating the muscle.

While in the Yo-Yo: the concentric pulling movement is heavy, but at the

end it flips around and on has to resist the eccentric movement, which

is in this case not dependent of the weight but on the velocity of

movement. In other words: the faster you pull (concentric) the faster

the flywheel will pull back (eccentric).

Especially in muscle groups that need eccentric work in order to

function optimally e.g. hamstrings, the Yo-Yo leg curl has helped us a

lot in getting stronger and preventing hamstring injuries! The forces

generated by the flywheel are not to be underestimated!

[Nobody here has suggested that the forces generated by a spinning flywheel

should be underestimated. The angular momentum developed can be very great

indeed, especially as the angular velocity increases, so that inertial training

machines can subject muscles to extremely large forces. Indeed, if used in

place of a weight stack on a pulley machine, inertial devices can certainly

produce a most effective type of strength training machine. Mel Siff]

Henk Kraaijenhof

Amstelveen

Holland

----------

Dale E Wallace:

Since it seems that we still cannot seem to find out the names of any

Olympians who have trained with Nautilus machines, here is yet another concept

with machines:

The company, " YoYo Technology " , found at this address:

http://www.yoyotechnology.com ....

makes the advertising claim, " Olympic and

World Champion hurdler Ludmilla Engquist and fitness friend enjoy the

benefits of strength training using no weights. " The site explains

its patented principle's and also the Concentric and Eccentric

movement. From the web page is the patented principle; " Yo Yo

Technology AB(Inc.)has developed a revolutionary new strength

training system using a patented rotatable flywheel-hence the

name " YoYo " -which replaces weight plates and other resistance

training devices relying on gravity. YoYo's resistance is provided by

spinning flywheels, very much like a child's yoyo, with the strap

being wound and unwound around the axle of a fixed flywheel. A

concentric(positive) muscle action overcomes the inertia of the

flywheel of the flywheel setting it spinning on low friction

bearings, while a subsequent eccentric(negative) muscle action is

used to overcome the inertial force of the spinning flywheel. This is

the patented YoYo principle. "

That is what the website claims and I heard about this on a website

that a high school football coach writes for who rushed out and purchased one

of the machines. At least they will claim an Olympian. This was not enough

to make me drop the money nor take a second look, but they claim to have

cutting edge technology and research. Sorry Jerry, but your a little late on

this

one.(A joke there as I have read Mr Telle's work and find it to be a

great read.) Mel, Jerry, or anyone else with comments? I personally

will continue to relive the golden oldies with my dumbbells and

barbells, no machines and throw in a few " Telle raises and a cycle

of " DSP Training " . I have not seen a machine or training system that

would make me want to rush out and join a gym yet!

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

<< That is what the website claims and I heard about this on a website

that a high school football coach writes for who rushed out and purchased one

of the machines. At least they will claim an Olympian. This was not enough

to make me drop the money nor take a second look, but they claim to have

cutting edge technology and research. Sorry Jerry, but your a little late on

this

one.

Telle response--

I'm crushed !! Actually I built one of these things about 20 ?years

ago(really) with a 36 lb " circle " from the metal scrap yard. I didnt

computer interface it--because of resistance irregularities--that is the

eccentric resistance is a funtion of concentric inertial wheel

momentum(terminology)or in other words you only get a an eccentric resitive

force equal to(99%?) of the concentric force. The problems/advantages lie in

the distribution of user energy?/force--that is after a somewhat full

resistance concentric rep the spool begins to winde the strap and provide

eccentric resistance. If you resist the negative motion vigourously at this

point--the inertial wheel dies--stops before the eccentric is completed.

This is not a huge problem and the user soon learns to distribute the

eccentirc force over the rep and can even target certain negative

phases--there is a danger if user force is applied to late in the negative

movement resulting in possible soft tissue damage.

I rather wish I had saved the transmission device. On certain pulling

movements where user force is much higher(3X's) at the onset of positive and

end of negative movement( low pulley rows, upright rows, lat pulldowns) this

device may work well for hypertrophy? Because the onset of positive is always

very slow relatve to the end rapid acceerations are inhibited..

I talked (had a bit of a tiff with)with Tesch and his assistant at the New

Orleans NSCA Yo yo is a good term for this stuff they tried to tell me that

you could increase negative resistance and we went over to his computer and

argued the point--I cant remember the exact topic, but was not impressed and

thought I was being " ed. " His reselling his " Muscle Meets Magnets " under

a different title indicates to me he will do anything to make a sale--big

credibility issue!.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

jrtelle@...

---------------- >>

[Guest guest]

I am not defending Tesch patents or his explanation of it. I just found

53 of his publications in peer-reviewed journals in PubMed and I know

there are a lot more,'

Dr.Tesch has been working at the famous Karolinska Institute in

Stockholm and for NASA.

Mr. Telle probably never wrote a book, otherwise he would know that

writing a book, even published under another title, certainly on a

subject like this, is hardly a money-maker or even an attempt to a big

sale.

[Actually, Jerry has written a book, which he asked me to review and edit

many years ago, so he is painfully aware of the difficulties in selling

techincal books in strength science. Mel Siff]

Articles, information, supplements and machines appear on this list from

people with a lot less scientific credibility than Dr.Tesch.

[True, but others with equal or greater credibility also appear here. We also

need to distinguish between credibility in one field and credibility in another

in which one may not necessarily be an expert. Unfortunately, far too many

of the general public are cowed by the sight of a PhD and daunting list of

publications and seem to accept the meanderings of some world famous minds

into some territory where they are just as lost as the rest of us. Thus, one

always has to look beyond the personality and rely solely on the evidence

being presented. Mel Siff]

More information about the Yo-Yo:

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed

& list_uids=7980338 & dopt=Abstract>

Berg HE, Tesch A.

A gravity-independent ergometer to be used for resistance training in

space. Aviat Space Environ Med. 1994 Aug; 65(8):752-6.

[it is interesting to note that this publication appeared many years after

similar articles appeared in Russian journals and even a few years after

books written by Dr Zatsiorsky and myself had described inertial training

in English. I will try to find out from my Russian colleagues more about

the early history of these devices. Mel Siff]

Henk Kraaijenhof

Amstelveen

Holland

-------

henkra@... writes:

<< That is what the website claims and I heard about this on a website

that a high school football coach writes for who rushed out and

purchased one

of the machines. At least they will claim an Olympian. This was not

enough

to make me drop the money nor take a second look, but they claim to have

cutting edge technology and research. Sorry Jerry, but your a little

late on this one.

Jerry Telle response--

I'm crushed !! Actually I built one of these things about 20 ?years

ago(really) with a 36 lb " circle " from the metal scrap yard. I didnt

computer interface it--because of resistance irregularities--that is the

eccentric resistance is a funtion of concentric inertial wheel

momentum(terminology)or in other words you only get a an eccentric

resitive

force equal to(99%?) of the concentric force. The problems/advantages

lie in

the distribution of user energy?/force--that is after a somewhat full

resistance concentric rep the spool begins to winde the strap and

provide

eccentric resistance. If you resist the negative motion vigourously at

this

point--the inertial wheel dies--stops before the eccentric is completed.

This is not a huge problem and the user soon learns to distribute the

eccentirc force over the rep and can even target certain negative

phases--there is a danger if user force is applied to late in the

negative

movement resulting in possible soft tissue damage.

I rather wish I had saved the transmission device. On certain pulling

movements where user force is much higher(3X's) at the onset of positive

and

end of negative movement( low pulley rows, upright rows, lat pulldowns)

this

device may work well for hypertrophy? Because the onset of positive is

always

very slow relatve to the end rapid acceerations are inhibited..

I talked (had a bit of a tiff with)with Tesch and his assistant at the

New

Orleans NSCA Yo yo is a good term for this stuff they tried to tell me

that

you could increase negative resistance and we went over to his computer

and

argued the point--I cant remember the exact topic, but was not impressed

and

thought I was being " ed. " His reselling his " Muscle Meets Magnets "

under

a different title indicates to me he will do anything to make a

sale--big

credibility issue!.

Jerry Telle

*Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

I am not defending Tesch patents or his explanation of it. I just found

53 of his publications in peer-reviewed journals in PubMed and I know

there are a lot more,'

Dr.Tesch has been working at the famous Karolinska Institute in

Stockholm and for NASA.

Mr. Telle probably never wrote a book, otherwise he would know that

writing a book, even published under another title, certainly on a

subject like this, is hardly a money-maker or even an attempt to a big

sale.

Mel Siff:

<Actually, Jerry has written a book, which he asked me to review and

edit many years ago, so he is painfully aware of the difficulties in selling

techincal books in strength science.>

Articles, information, supplements and machines appear on this list from

people with a lot less scientific credibility than Dr.Tesch.

Mel Siff:

<True, but others with equal or greater credibility also appear here. We

also need to distinguish between credibility in one field and credibility in

another in which one may not necessarily be an expert. Unfortunately, far too

many of the general public are cowed by the sight of a PhD and daunting list

of publications and seem to accept the meanderings of some world famous

minds into some territory where they are just as lost as the rest of us.>

Thus, one always has to look beyond the personality and rely solely on

the evidence being presented.>

This might not be the case of Dr.Tesch here being an expert

on muscle physiology and training effects.

Don't forget it was Mr.Telle turning the release of Tesch' book into a

credibility issue.

More information about the Yo-Yo:

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed

& list_uids=7980338 & dopt=Abstract>

Berg HE, Tesch A.

A gravity-independent ergometer to be used for resistance training in

space. Aviat Space Environ Med. 1994 Aug; 65(8):752-6.

Mel Siff:

<It is interesting to note that this publication appeared many years after

similar articles appeared in Russian journals and even a few years after

books written by Dr Zatsiorsky and myself had described inertial training

in English. I will try to find out from my Russian colleagues more about

the early history of these devices. >

Please don't be mistaken by the similarity in equipment, the difference is often

in the details. Superficially many kinds of equipment look alike or are promoted

to do

the same job as the original idea. Look at vibration platforms

as a perfect example. But it is like a friend of mine Marco Cardinale

stated in his lectures: In God we trust, all others show data.

[sorry, but the Scriptures clearly state that we should " prove all things " , and

since other scriptures state that even God should be held to the same standards

as the laws which " He " installed, then God should also be expected to offer some

data

or at least the way to find the data. Mel Siff]

If a machine was described long time ago, why didn't it sustain until now:

probably

because it did not work as well as one expected and was discarded for that

reason.

[ Casler's earlier letters offer a very good explanation for this - MONEY.

Had , Jerry and many others been able to attract the necessary funding, no

doubt we would be seeing Telle and Casler devices in many gyms. Commercial

success

proves only one major thing - successful marketing and good business practice.

Mel Siff]

Why would it work now, simply because somebody picked up the

basic idea and improved on it, maybe because of improvements

in technology, electronics, software, that was not available at the time

of the first seminal idea.

[How many Russian mass marketed machines exist? This sort of enterprise was not

one of the

characteristics of the communist regime, so that we come across many Russian

devices which

are copied and produced in the West. For example, elastic bands and physio

balls have been around

for years, used largely by physical therapists, but it was only when some astute

business folk saw

the potential in the gullible and bored fitness world that such devices became

best sellers. Mel Siff]

When I read the recent descriptions about the resistance machines I

continuously thing: how much would this be better than the free

barbell, or could this all be an attempt for a big sale?

[Without any reliance on exercise science, speak to elite athletes, especially

those in the

strength and power sports and see what their answers are. If we apply something

like the

legendary Milo approach, start a youngster's strength training by having him

wrestle

against progressively stronger and stronger opponents as he grows and see if

any machines

will ever increase his " functional " strength and stability to a comparable or

greater extent.

That unsophisticated non-technological approach will also help to answer that

question.

So will a comparison of inertial training with the tradtional training of

weightlifting and

powerlifting. At most any machine will offer only a certain modicum of

supplementary

strength conditioning, but will never replace the mainstream free weights

methods. Mel Siff]

Henk Kraaijenhof

Amstelveen

Holland

-------

henkra@... writes:

<< That is what the website claims and I heard about this on a website

that a high school football coach writes for who rushed out and

purchased one

of the machines. At least they will claim an Olympian. This was not

enough

to make me drop the money nor take a second look, but they claim to have

cutting edge technology and research. Sorry Jerry, but your a little

late on this one.

Jerry Telle response--

I'm crushed !! Actually I built one of these things about 20 ?years

ago(really) with a 36 lb " circle " from the metal scrap yard. I didnt

computer interface it--because of resistance irregularities--that is the

eccentric resistance is a funtion of concentric inertial wheel

momentum(terminology)or in other words you only get a an eccentric

resitive

force equal to(99%?) of the concentric force. The problems/advantages

lie in

the distribution of user energy?/force--that is after a somewhat full

resistance concentric rep the spool begins to winde the strap and

provide

eccentric resistance. If you resist the negative motion vigourously at

this

point--the inertial wheel dies--stops before the eccentric is completed.

This is not a huge problem and the user soon learns to distribute the

eccentirc force over the rep and can even target certain negative

phases--there is a danger if user force is applied to late in the

negative

movement resulting in possible soft tissue damage.

I rather wish I had saved the transmission device. On certain pulling

movements where user force is much higher(3X's) at the onset of positive

and

end of negative movement( low pulley rows, upright rows, lat pulldowns)

this

device may work well for hypertrophy? Because the onset of positive is

always

very slow relatve to the end rapid acceerations are inhibited..

I talked (had a bit of a tiff with)with Tesch and his assistant at the

New

Orleans NSCA Yo yo is a good term for this stuff they tried to tell me

that

you could increase negative resistance and we went over to his computer

and

argued the point--I cant remember the exact topic, but was not impressed

and

thought I was being " ed. " His reselling his " Muscle Meets Magnets "

under

a different title indicates to me he will do anything to make a

sale--big

credibility issue!.

Jerry Telle

*Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence

if you wish them to be published!