Re: Protein Storage - Bodybuilder myth?

[Guest guest]

Ken Manning writes:

<< The biggest mystery to me while on this diet is how I'm able to increase

strength levels and maintain

a high energy level while working out later in the week after 5 days of near

zero carbs (discounting fiber).>>

Telle--

At this point in training and nutrition science this type of self reporting

is *essential* in leading researchers to more definitive study designs.

Ken, what exactly is discount(ed) fiber? And is your training volume heavy,

medium light? Apparently your cognitive skills show no signs of fatigue

either as the week progresses?

And finally how many grams of carbs on the week end?

Thanks,

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

Chelos writes:

<< Generally speaking, a significant excess intake of any macronutrient

over the long term will lead to fat storage. Excess lean protein

alone may not lead to fat storage but a combination of excess carbs

and fats may push the right buttons.

Any comments?>>

Telle--It is becoming apparent to me(in general) that it is the carbs, type

of and amount that is the determining factor.

jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

Purely anecdotal evidence here, but I've tried both high calorie high carb

diets, and my current

high calorie protein/fat diet (with weekend carb loads). Now, I understand that

excess calories

from any macronutrient can be stored as fat; however, perhaps eating in the high

fat/high protein

manner with weekend carb loads does indeed create an anabolic environment more

prone to put on

muscle rather than fat.

As I've stated in an earlier post, eating in this manner, ingesting nearly 350

grams of protein and

350-400 grams of fat per day, I've gained approximately 15-18 pounds over the

course of the

last 3.5 months, with the vast majority of it muscle. I've tried so many

different diets over the

course of the last 6 or so years, and finally have stumbled upon something that

works well for me.

I've used high carb, zone type macronutrient profiles, food separating diets,

etc... The one diet that

seemed to put on the most fat was the high carb diet, no doubt. While on my

high protein/high fat diet,

I make sure to drink between 1-2 gallons of water daily.

The biggest mystery to me while on this diet is how I'm able to increase

strength levels and maintain

a high energy level while working out later in the week after 5 days of near

zero carbs (discounting fiber).

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

[Guest guest]

Melnyk wrote:

<So, Supertrainers, how in the world do I convince these guys that

EXCESS CALORIES whether its protein/fat/carbs, will be stored as fat?>

How much excess are we talking about? Excess lean protein will

normally be excreted unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise.

If your kidneys is having difficulty in excreting 200gm (for example)

of extra protein, then the body may find it easier to store this

excess protein as fat.

Since the excretion route is used primarily to rid the body of amino

acids not needed, an extra 50-100gm of protein may follow the same

road.

Generally speaking, a significant excess intake of any macronutrient

over the long term will lead to fat storage. Excess lean protein

alone may not lead to fat storage but a combination of excess carbs

and fats may push the right buttons.

Any comments?

Chelos

Sydney Australia

[Guest guest]

> <So, Supertrainers, how in the world do I convince these guys that

> EXCESS CALORIES whether its protein/fat/carbs, will be stored as

fat?>

Its not all converted to fat. Read Bouchard's work with twins. Its

highly individual. Read Swinburn and Ravussin from AJCN - much of

the excess is simply oxidized. Read Hellerstein's work as well. For

CHO, the type is important as well.

> How much excess are we talking about? Excess lean protein will

> normally be excreted unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise.

> If your kidneys is having difficulty in excreting 200gm (for

example)

> of extra protein, then the body may find it easier to store this

> excess protein as fat.

The kidney will not excrete the protein, only the nitrogen, so this

is independent of that, and the carbon source is the only thing to be

concerned with.

Christian , PhD

UCLA

[Guest guest]

Try replacing the word discounting with the word except, or the phrase I

don't count. It's an interesting use of discount though.

martyn la fleur

vancouver

canada

--------

From: jrtelle@...

> Ken Manning writes:

>

> << The biggest mystery to me while on this diet is how I'm able to increase

> strength levels and maintain

> a high energy level while working out later in the week after 5 days of near

> zero carbs (discounting fiber).>>

>

> Telle--

>

> At this point in training and nutrition science this type of self reporting

> is *essential* in leading researchers to more definitive study designs.

>

> Ken, what exactly is discount(ed) fiber? And is your training volume heavy,

> medium light? Apparently your cognitive skills show no signs of fatigue

> either as the week progresses?

>

> And finally how many grams of carbs on the week end?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe excess amino

acids (at least the glucogenic ones) are sent to the

liver where they are oxidized to glucose and released

into the bloodstream. Now if this process occurred

and one was in calorie surplus, I imagine much of this

glucose could then be accumulated in adipose tissue.

Layne Norton

Eckerd College

St. sburg, FL USA

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

Ken Manning writes: (much snipped see at bottom)

<< What I mean by " discouting fiber " is that grams of fiber are not figured

into my

daily carb allotment. For instance, one ounce of almonds has 5 grams of

carbs - 4

of which are fiber. Therefore, I would only count 1 gram of carbs for that

serving.

While low-carbing on the weekdays, I will eat several portions of fibrous

vegetables

each day, with minimal non-fiber carb intake (broccoli, cauliflower, etc..) >>

Amazing!

I have to say we have had much the same expereince(increase in strength, loss

of fat) with everyone on a " broccoli and fish " (as a metaphor) diet--even

without the high carb weekends. Then again, I don't think we had anyone at

your performance level (and gaining mass!)either. I know when I used the

" broccoli and fish " system my exercise was minimal. I do remember maintaining

(possibly increasing strength)? and having much higher energy during the

weight loss which averaged 3-4 lbs a week *after* the initial 10-12 lb. water

purge? 235lbs. down to 202 in 6 weeks?

I'm on it again now and do no exercise (personal experiment and circumstance)

and have lost 29 lbs since Nov 7th. Energy is up mildly? I have no way

ofindicating lean loss due to not exercising!

By the way, anyone, does Oprahs trainer have *any* background in exercise

and nutrition? I have not seen as much " collective garbage " thrust on one

person in my life! Its no wonder those who watch her show have a hard time

starting and exercise regimen. MARATHONS!!, workout twice a day on somedays,

cardio every day!

She lost 33 lbs in 10 months--she should have lost that the first 2

considering the type of crud she was eating!

Ken, thanks greatly for the write up--a definite keeper. Unfortunately I'm

not quite with you on the discounted fiber and grams. If you would kindly

write a typical days food and amounts--my lagging comprehension might be

satisfied.

Thanks again and in advance.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

Telle wrote:

<<Ken, what exactly is discount(ed) fiber? And is your training volume heavy,

medium light? Apparently your cognitive skills show no signs of fatigue

either as the week progresses?

And finally how many grams of carbs on the weekend?>>

What I mean by " discounting fiber " is that grams of fiber are not figured

into my

daily carb allotment. For instance, one ounce of almonds has 5 grams of

carbs - 4

of which are fiber. Therefore, I would only count 1 gram of carbs for that

serving.

While low-carbing on the weekdays, I will eat several portions of fibrous

vegetables

each day, with minimal non-fiber carb intake (broccoli, cauliflower, etc..).

As for the volume of my workouts, I'd have to say it's been pretty high while

on the diet.

I previously posted an example of my average day's workout while using the

Westside system.

I had a few posters tell me that the volume looked higher than what they use;

however, I was

gaining muscle mass and strength, and had absolutely no signs of

overtraining. This past week

I completed my 4th and final week of using German Volume training. I lifted

3 times per week,

splitting the body up into: chest/back (Monday), legs/abs (wednesday), arms

(Friday).

For example, my arm workout looked like:

Weighted Dips 10x10

Barbell curls 10x10

Front plate raise 3x10

Mini-band rear delt raise 3x15 (with a 3 sec static contraction for each rep)

Now, I have used German volume training before with little success. This

time around,

I was using much heavier weights and found it to be a great break from

Westside. For

example, the last time I used German volume training, the heaviest weights I

could use for

weighted dips for all 10 sets of 10 reps was 20 pounds. Yesterday, for my

last workout

of this cycle, I used 47.5 pounds and made my last set of 10 with a rep or

two to spare.

This Monday I'm going to begin a 4-6 week cycle where I'm going to employ the

post-tetanic

potentiation tactic, again splitting up the body and working 3 days per week.

I'll probably

use the 1/6 protocol, perhaps dropping down to a 1/4-5 protocol near the end

of the cycle.

I have shown no signs of cognitive fatigue while on the Metabolic Diet.

Conversely, I have

more energy and seem to think more clearly and can focus more intensely on

certain tasks.

I've also noticed that I seem to operate at a higher energy level while

getting less sleep

(work begins for me at 3:40 a.m. and finishes at around 7 p.m. daily - I work

on my family's

dairy farm).

On the weekends, I try to consume 700-1000 grams of carbs on Saturday, and

around 500

on Sunday. I don't count grams as closely as I do during the week, but I'm

pretty sure I'm within

my targeted range. One other thing I notice, is that when switching from

high fat/high protein

to high carb, I tend to experience some digestive distress. One might say

that it's simply due to

my system needing time to adapt to a completely different macronutrient

profile; however, when

switching back from high carb to high fat/high protein on monday, there is no

disgestive distress

whatsoever.

Again, my success with this type of diet may be due to a genetic

predisposition that allows me to

function quite well on this type of cyclical macronutrient shuffling. Others

may find that their

bodies respond better to a standard high carb diet. At the end of 6 months,

I'm going to sit down and

analyze how the diet affected my strength performance in every way, figuring

% increase in my

lifts compared to other diet/lifting cycles I've tried in the past (there are

many! and I record

everything). I'd like my bodyweight to be somewhere between 220-230 by the

end of January

(I'm currently at around 215). At that point, I may test the diet on a 4-8

week cutting cycle,

possibly trying to drop to 205-210. We'll see how it goes.

[Guest guest]

Telle wrote:

<<Ken, what exactly is discount(ed) fiber? And is your training volume heavy,

medium light? Apparently your cognitive skills show no signs of fatigue

either as the week progresses?

And finally how many grams of carbs on the weekend?>>

What I mean by " discouting fiber " is that grams of fiber are not figured into my

daily carb allotment. For instance, one ounce of almonds has 5 grams of carbs -

4

of which are fiber. Therefore, I would only count 1 gram of carbs for that

serving.

While low-carbing on the weekdays, I will eat several portions of fibrous

vegetables

each day, with minimal non-fiber carb intake (broccoli, cauliflower, etc..).

As for the volume of my workouts, I'd have to say it's been pretty high while on

the diet.

I previously posted an example of my average day's workout while using the

Westside system.

I had a few posters tell me that the volume looked higher than what they use;

however, I was

gaining muscle mass and strength, and had absolutely no signs of overtraining.

This past week

I completed my 4th and final week of using German Volume training. I lifted 3

times per week,

splitting the body up into: chest/back (Monday), legs/abs (wednesday), arms

(Friday).

For example, my arm workout looked like:

Weighted Dips 10x10

Barbell curls 10x10

Front plate raise 3x10

Mini-band rear delt raise 3x15 (with a 3 sec static contraction for each rep)

Now, I have used German volume training before with little success. This time

around,

I was using much heavier weights and found it to be a great break from Westside.

For

example, the last time I used German volume training, the heaviest weights I

could use for

weighted dips for all 10 sets of 10 reps was 20 pounds. Yesterday, for my last

workout

of this cycle, I used 47.5 pounds and made my last set of 10 with a rep or two

to spare.

This Monday I'm going to begin a 4-6 week cycle where I'm going to employ the

post-tetanic

potentiation tactic, again splitting up the body and working 3 days per week.

I'll probably

use the 1/6 protocol, perhaps dropping down to a 1/4-5 protocol near the end of

the cycle.

I have shown no signs of cognative fatigue while on the Metabolic Diet.

Conversely, I have

more energy and seem to think more clearly and can focus more intensely on

certain tasks.

I've also noticed that I seem to operate at a higher energy level while getting

less sleep

(work begins for me at 3:40 a.m. and finishes at around 7 p.m. daily - I work on

my family's

dairy farm).

On the weekends, I try to consume 700-1000 grams of carbs on Saturday, and

around 500

on sunday. I don't count grams as closely as I do during the week, but I'm

pretty sure I'm within

my targeted range. One other thing I notice, is that when switching from high

fat/high protein

to high carb, I tend to experience some digestive distress. One might say that

it's simply due to

my system needing time to adapt to a completely different macronutrient profile;

however, when

switching back from high carb to high fat/high protein on monday, there is no

disgestive distress

whatsoever.

Again, my success with this type of diet may be due to a genetic predisposition

that allows me to

function quite well on this type of cyclical macronutrient shuffling. Others

may find that their

bodies respond better to a standard high carb diet. At the end of 6 months, I'm

going to sit down and

analyze how the diet affected my strength performance in every way, figuring %

increase in my

lifts compared to other diet/lifting cycles I've tried in the past (there are

many! and I record

everything). I'd like my bodyweight to be somewhere between 220-230 by the end

of January

(I'm currently at around 215). At that point, I may test the diet on a 4-8 week

cutting cycle,

possibly trying to drop to 205-210. We'll see how it goes.

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

*Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

Ken Manning wrote:

> On the weekends, I try to consume 700-1000 grams of

> carbs on Saturday, and around 500

> on sunday. I don't count grams as closely as I do

> during the week, but I'm pretty sure I'm within

> my targeted range. One other thing I notice, is

> that when switching from high fat/high protein

> to high carb, I tend to experience some digestive

> distress. One might say that it's simply due to

> my system needing time to adapt to a completely

> different macronutrient profile; however, when

> switching back from high carb to high fat/high

> protein on monday, there is no disgestive distress

> whatsoever. "

That is because your body has become used to that kind

of macronutrient intake. Switching to another

macronutrient breakdown (i.e. your refeeds) for a few

days will not allow your body to acclimate itself to

those conditions in that period of time, thus the

problems. I experience the same thing myself when I

diet for contests. I usually diet 5-7 days followed

by 12 hours of refeeding (moderate protein, low fat,

high carbs, usually glucose polymers) During my

refeed I experience extremely bad gas for about one

day.

When I finish dieting for a contest I have bad

gas for a few days but after that my body has no

problems with my increased carb intake. I think you

would probably find the same thing. To imply that the

body prefers one nutrient breakdown over the other b/c

of the distress you are feeling is not an accurate

assessment in my opinion.

Layne Norton

Eckerd College

St. sburg, FL USA

[Guest guest]

Ken Manning wrote:

.... " discounting fiber " ..... high-carbohydrate propenents say that high

fiber is important to optimal nutrition -especially colon efficiency. "

This is false,(New England Journal of Medicine,Vol 340, No.3,

January 21, 1999 ) fiber is just indigestible carbohydrate.

People want to believe that to get fiber for waste disposal from the

body,(waste attaches to fiber) we need to eat carbohydrates. If you

desire vegetable fiber, eat celery!

A point that is most often missed is meat has lots of fiber in it. Can

I ask what the reasoning for upping the carbs on the weekend is? If

you are feeling great and have lots of energy, workouts are going

great, then why the weekend carbs?

Dale E Wallace

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

[Guest guest]

Telle wrote:

<<Unfortunately I'm

not quite with you on the discounted fiber and grams. If you would kindly

write a typical days food and amounts--my lagging comprehension might be

satisfied.>>

Telle, I probably didn't present a clear example in my last post, so here is

what a typical day might look like during my low-carb weekdays:

3:45 a.m.: Two 1/4 lb hamburgers, 2 pieces cheese, 1 oz. sunflower seeds

[65 grams fat, 50 grams protein, 3 grams carbs (0.5 grams carbs per slice of

cheese, 2 " countable " grams of carbs from sunflower seeds - there were 5 grams

of carbs listed on the nutrition label, 3 of which were fiber and not counted

towards

my daily allotment)] supplement: multivitamin/mineral, calcium/zinc/magnesium

supplement

8 a.m.: 30 grams whey protein (prior to working out)

9:15 a.m.: 6 whole eggs, 2 slices cheese, 2 hot dogs [67 grams fat, 56 grams

protein, 6 grams carbs]

12 p.m.: tuna salad (full fat mayo, onions, celery), cauliflower, broccoli, 4

oz. heavy

whipped cream with a bit of sugar free jello powder mixed in plus 2 packets

Splenda

(60 grams fat, 36 grams protein, 5 grams carbs0

3 p.m.: two 1/4 pound hamburgers, 2 slices cheese, 1 oz. almonds [65 grams fat,

50 grams protein, 2 grams carbs (1 gram carbs from cheese, 1 gram carbs from

almonds - there was 5 total carbs listed per ounce of almonds, but 4 were listed

as fiber, therefore were not counted)]

7 p.m.: steak, mushroom/cream sauce, romaine salad with olive oil/vinegar

dressing,

topped with various raw vegetables [60 grams fat, 40 grams protein, 2 grams

carbs]

10 p.m.: protein supplement with 1 tablespoon olive oil, 1 tablespon flaxseed

oil,

1 pollio cheese stick [36 grams fat, 48 grams protein, 1 gram carb]

Totals: Fat = 353 grams; Protein = 310 grams; carbs = 19 grams

Total calories: 4500

Macronutrient ratios: 70% Fat, 27% protein, 3% carbs

I'll sometimes also snack on several servings of nuts as well as cheese sticks

throughout

the day, which may add around 50 grams fat, 30 grams protein, 4-5 grams carbs

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

[Guest guest]

Layne Norton wrote:

> Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe excess amino

> acids (at least the glucogenic ones) are sent to the

> liver where they are oxidized to glucose and released

> into the bloodstream. Now if this process occurred

> and one was in calorie surplus, I imagine much of this

> glucose could then be accumulated in adipose tissue.

Layne, Glucagon, a hormone, releases stored glycogen and stored

bodyfat for conversion into glucose. Glucagon's action is stimulated

by protien, so when more protien is eaten, excess fat is more readily

used by the body for fuel.( " Basic Medical Biochemistry " page 23). It is

much easier for the body to lose fat eating protien along with your

essential fatty acids, because the protein-influenced glucagon causes

stored bodyfat to be converted to glucose which is used or

burned.

[Name of author? Mel Siff]

Guyton, " Textbook of Medical Physiology " , ninth edition,1996 has a

section entitled, " Formation of Carbohydrates From Proteins and Fats-

Gluconeogenesis. " The glycerol portion of fat, the majority of amino

acids from protein can be converted to carbohydrates, but with EFAs

does not convert to fat.

Dale E Wallace

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/02 6:46:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Strenghth1@... writes:

>

> Ken Manning wrote:

>

> ... " discounting fiber " ..... high-carbohydrate propenents say that high

> fiber is important to optimal nutrition -especially colon efficiency. "

>

> This is false,(New England Journal of Medicine,Vol 340, No.3,

> January 21, 1999 ) fiber is just indigestible carbohydrate.

> People want to believe that to get fiber for waste disposal from the

> body,(waste attaches to fiber) we need to eat carbohydrates. If you

> desire vegetable fiber, eat celery!

>

> A point that is most often missed is meat has lots of fiber in it. Can

> I ask what the reasoning for upping the carbs on the weekend is? If

> you are feeling great and have lots of energy, workouts are going

> great, then why the weekend carbs?

>

> Dale E Wallace

> Cedar Rapids, Iowa

>

>

>

>

HELLO THERE:

You guys.are both a little off. There are two types of fiber recognized by

teh " scientific community " , insoluble and soluble.

One is digested by teh bacteria within the gut and the other is undigesable

making your stool move faster thru the gut. This year the " Fiber association

of RD " got together and they want to chnage the classification so a new one

will be out in 2004.

Serrano

Columbus Ohio

[Guest guest]

Ken Manning writes:

<< I'll sometimes also snack on several servings of nuts as well as cheese

sticks throughout

the day, which may add around 50 grams fat, 30 grams protein, 4-5 grams carbs

>>

Excellent, perfect, wow 4500 cal? amazing ,thanks--now if you have any

patience left--a typical Saturday foods and amounts.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

Telle wrote:

<<Unfortunately I'm

not quite with you on the discounted fiber and grams. If you would kindly

write a typical days food and amounts--my lagging comprehension might be

satisfied.>>

Telle, I probably didn't present a clear example in my last post, so here is

what a typical day might look like during my low-carb weekdays:

3:45 a.m.: Two 1/4 lb hamburgers, 2 pieces cheese, 1 oz. sunflower seeds

[65 grams fat, 50 grams protein, 3 grams carbs (0.5 grams carbs per slice of

cheese, 2 " countable " grams of carbs from sunflower seeds - there were 5

grams

of carbs listed on the nutrition label, 3 of which were fiber and not counted

towards

my daily allotment)] supplement: multivitamin/mineral,

calcium/zinc/magnesium

supplement

8 a.m.: 30 grams whey protein (prior to working out)

9:15 a.m.: 6 whole eggs, 2 slices cheese, 2 hot dogs [67 grams fat, 56 grams

protein, 6 grams carbs]

12 p.m.: tuna salad (full fat mayo, onions, celery), cauliflower, broccoli,

4 oz. heavy

whipped cream with a bit of sugar free jello powder mixed in plus 2 packets

Splenda

(60 grams fat, 36 grams protein, 5 grams carbs0

3 p.m.: two 1/4 pound hamburgers, 2 slices cheese, 1 oz. almonds [65 grams

fat,

50 grams protein, 2 grams carbs (1 gram carbs from cheese, 1 gram carbs from

almonds - there was 5 total carbs listed per ounce of almonds, but 4 were

listed

as fiber, therefore were not counted)]

7 p.m.: steak, mushroom/cream sauce, romaine salad with olive oil/vinegar

dressing,

topped with various raw vegetables [60 grams fat, 40 grams protein, 2 grams

carbs]

10 p.m.: protein supplement with 1 tablespoon olive oil, 1 tablespon

flaxseed oil,

1 pollio cheese stick [36 grams fat, 48 grams protein, 1 gram carb]

Totals: Fat = 353 grams; Protein = 310 grams; carbs = 19 grams

Total calories: 4500

Macronutrient ratios: 70% Fat, 27% protein, 3% carbs

I'll sometimes also snack on several servings of nuts as well as cheese

sticks throughout

the day, which may add around 50 grams fat, 30 grams protein, 4-5 grams carbs

[Guest guest]

> Ken Manning wrote:

>

> ... " discounting fiber " ..... high-carbohydrate propenents say that high

> fiber is important to optimal nutrition -especially colon efficiency. "

>

> This is false,(New England Journal of Medicine,Vol 340, No.3,

> January 21, 1999 ) fiber is just indigestible carbohydrate.

> People want to believe that to get fiber for waste disposal from the

> body,(waste attaches to fiber) we need to eat carbohydrates. If you

> desire vegetable fiber, eat celery!

Vegetarian Times

July, 2000

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0820/2000_July/63124345/print.jhtml

Fiber: Fact & Fiction.(dietary fiber)(Brief Article)

Author/s: Abigail Chipley

If you believe recent news stories debunking high-fiber diets as a way to

stave off colon cancer, you might as well toss those oat bran muffins,

fruits and vegetables into the compost heap.

Two studies involving thousands of people and published in April's New

England Journal of Medicine concluded that neither consuming a high-fiber,

low-fat diet nor eating extra wheat-bran fiber made any difference in

preventing colon cancer, the second-leading cause of cancer-related deaths

after lung cancer. And though most articles written on the subject seem to

accept these findings as the gospel truth, the case against fiber is hardly

airtight.

In both studies, researchers examined the effects of diet on men and women

age 35 and older who had previously had at least one polyp, a tiny

noncancerous growth, removed from their colons. (Since the disease often

starts out as a polyp, these people face an increased risk for developing

colon cancer.) In the first, a four-year study led by Arthur Schatzkin,

M.D., chief of nutritional epidemiology at the National Cancer Institute

(NCI), 2,079 participants were randomly assigned to eat either a low-fat,

high-fiber diet with lots of fruits and vegetables or to follow their

regular diets. The second, a three-year trial done at the University of

Arizona and involving more than 1,400 people, focused on fiber alone.

Researchers divided participants into two groups: One ate high-fiber

wheat-bran cereal or bars and the other ate low-fiber cereals or bars.

Both research teams were seeking evidence to prove the accepted hypothesis

that fiber protects against colon cancer by moving food through the bowel

faster, thereby decreasing the time the body is exposed to cancer-causing

substances in meat and other foods. But neither study bore this theory out.

In both trials, almost 40 percent of the participants who changed their

diets had recurrent polyps--a percentage only slightly smaller than the

control groups'. Says Schatzkin, " We were surprised and disappointed. We had

high expectations that we would see a positive result with a low-fat,

high-fiber diet, and we didn't. "

Not all the experts were surprised, however. Dean Ornish, M.D., a pioneer in

reversing heart disease through diet and president of the Preventive

Medicine Research Institute in Sausalito, Calif., explains the inherent

weakness of studies that rely on participants to monitor their own behavior.

" When patients know that you want them to follow a certain diet, to please

you they'll say they are doing it, even if they aren't. " In fact, key health

indicators measured by the researchers seem to support the notion that the

participants might have misrepresented the truth. In the NCI study,

participants' fat intake was supposedly reduced from 36 to 24 percent of

calories, partly by decreasing red meat and increasing fruit and vegetable

intake. Yet over four years their cholesterol levels barely budged and they

lost, on average, just one pound. " If they were really adhering to this

diet, I think you'd see more of a change, " says Ornish. " We know from a

number of studies that if you reduce your intake of fat significantly, you

get a big drop in both cholesterol and weight. "

The findings of the University of Arizona study are also suspect. Though

slightly better designed than the NCI study (the participants were provided

with the cereals and had to bring back empty boxes), the Arizona study was

still flawed. For example, the group that ate high-fiber breakfast cereals

or bars contained nearly twice as many smokers, and members of this group

also had higher fat and alcohol intakes than those in the control group.

Ornish says it is a mistake to focus on only one element of the diet--like

fiber--and assume that it alone affords protection from disease. " It's

really the totality of the diet that's important, " he says. " Fiber isn't the

only thing here. Meat and dairy have been linked with colon cancer as well. "

Of the hundreds of articles written about these studies, most glossed over

the quality of the evidence presented, emphasizing instead the fact that

fiber has been proven to lower your risk for developing high blood pressure,

adult-onset diabetes and heart disease. Those are certainly good reasons to

load up on veggies and grains, but the issue of fiber's role in preventing

colon cancer is still very much open to debate. Even Schatzkin is hedging

his bets. " We plan to follow the participants for five more years. And who

knows? We may see different results at year eight or nine, " he says.

> A point that is most often missed is meat has lots of fiber in it.

I have heard this before but can not find any reference to it in any of my

texts.

>Can

> I ask what the reasoning for upping the carbs on the weekend is? If

> you are feeling great and have lots of energy, workouts are going

> great, then why the weekend carbs?

Perhaps it is the carbs on the weekends that allows him to continue training

well.

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Dale Wallace wrote:

<<This is false,(New England Journal of Medicine,Vol 340, No.3,

January 21, 1999 ) fiber is just indigestible carbohydrate.

People want to believe that to get fiber for waste disposal from the

body,(waste attaches to fiber) we need to eat carbohydrates. If you

desire vegetable fiber, eat celery!

A point that is most often missed is meat has lots of fiber in it. Can

I ask what the reasoning for upping the carbs on the weekend is? If

you are feeling great and have lots of energy, workouts are going

great, then why the weekend carbs?>>

Dale, I have a firm grasp regarding where fiber comes from and good sources of

fiber.

All I was talking about was that, when counting up grams of carbs consumed

throughout

the day, I do not include the fiber portion consumed with my " carb " sources.

I've heard

stories about people becoming constipated from the lack of fiber on a high

fat/high

protein diet. However, without being overly concerned about counting grams of

fiber

each day, I've had no such problems.

As for the reason for my weekend carb loads - this is perhaps the area of the

diet where I

did the least amount of research and simply took the author's explanation on

faith.

Supposedly, when switching from a high protein/high fat diet to a short-term

high carb

diet, one's body increases the production of various anabolic hormones. It has

been suggested

that during the first day of carb loading, both insulin levels and GH reach

higher than normal

levels simultaneously, something which normally does not occur (high insulin and

GH levels

occurring at the same time). The broad based answer is that when cycling

macronutrients in

this manner, one creates an " optimal " hormonal environment for strength and

muscle mass

increases. It has also been said that this is especially evident when moving

from a low calorie,

high fat/high protein intake to a much higher calorie, short term high carb

intake. Also, there

is said to be a " glycogen-supercompensation effect " when moving from high

fat/high protein to

a short term high carb intake. This effect is said to increase the body's

storage of glyogen up

to 30% over normal levels.

So, the result is supposed to be a sense of tremendous strength during your

workouts a day or two

following one's carb load. Now, as I've stated, I've had great workouts later

in the week following s

everal days of near zero carbs, so I'm not sure what the explanation is there.

Again, please let me

reinforce that I am not presenting this as fact - this information did not come

from my personal

research, but from the author of the specific program I am following (Dr. Mauro

DiPasquale's

publications: " The Metabolic Diet, " " The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders, "

as well as " The

Anabolic Solution for Powerlifters " ). I say this to prevent any onslaught of

rebuttal information

targeted at me personally. Although let me say, I do love hearing as much

counter-information as

possible - it is most definitely one of my favorite things about this list.

I truly believe that there is no one nutrition plan that fits everyone.

Different people respond

differently to various diets. It may turn out that the diet I'm following does

not have a lot of research

to back it up. However, the simple fact that I began this diet as a severe

skeptic, and have since

experienced such tremendous gains, the best in my life by far, leads me to

believe that I may be a

few steps closer to a diet that fits my genetics.

Just as an aside, on the weekends, I am consuming quite a high amount of

calories, 5000+ on saturday,

eating nearly anything I want, which includes a lot of junk. The fact that my

fat gain has been minimal

has really surprised me. Several of my brother's and sisters have returned home

for the holiday this

weekend, and they are amazed at how much bigger I've become since they saw me

last in September.

Who knows.

Like I've said, at the end of 6 months, I'm going to lay everything out, look at

my percentage of strength

gains, muscle and body fat gains, and as many aspects that can be analyzed

since beginning the diet. I'll

definitely post all the details when I have them figured out at the end of

February.

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

[Guest guest]

<Strenghth1@m...> wrote:

Layne Norton wrote:

> > Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe excess amino

> > acids (at least the glucogenic ones) are sent to the

> > liver where they are oxidized to glucose and released

> > into the bloodstream. Now if this process occurred

> > and one was in calorie surplus, I imagine much of this

> > glucose could then be accumulated in adipose tissue.

> Layne, Glucagon, a hormone, releases stored glycogen and stored

> bodyfat for conversion into glucose. Glucagon's action is stimulated

> by protien, so when more protien is eaten, excess fat is more readily

> used by the body for fuel.( " Basic Medical Biochemistry " page 23). It is

> much easier for the body to lose fat eating protien along with your

> essential fatty acids, because the protein-influenced glucagon causes

> stored bodyfat to be converted to glucose which is used or

> burned.

> [Name of author? Mel Siff]

" Basic Medical Biochemistry-A clinical Approach " 5th and enl. ed January 1996

Dawn B.B. Marks, D Marks, Colleen M. . Fingers get behind the

brain sometimes!

Guyton, " Textbook of Medical Physiology " , ninth edition,1996 has a

section entitled, " Formation of Carbohydrates From Proteins and Fats-

Gluconeogenesis. " The glycerol portion of fat, the majority of

amino acids from protein can be converted to carbohydrates, but with EFAs

does not convert to fat.

Dale E Wallace

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

[Guest guest]

> Layne, Glucagon, a hormone, releases stored glycogen and stored

> bodyfat for conversion into glucose. Glucagon's action is stimulated

> by protien, so when more protien is eaten, excess fat is more readily

> used by the body for fuel.( " Basic Medical Biochemistry " page 23). It is

> much easier for the body to lose fat eating protien along with your

> essential fatty acids, because the protein-influenced glucagon causes

> stored bodyfat to be converted to glucose which is used or

> burned.

Used or burned???

This is all true. Barry Sears has been plugging glucagon for years. However

is it optimal? Is it optimal for some? Some people are purely anaerobic

athletes and will not need large glycogen stores (except possibly for

recovery) while others need to perform for longer than 10secs where aerobic

energy supply becomes more important.

> Guyton, " Textbook of Medical Physiology " , ninth edition,1996 has a

> section entitled, " Formation of Carbohydrates From Proteins and Fats-

> Gluconeogenesis. " The glycerol portion of fat, the majority of amino

> acids from protein can be converted to carbohydrates, but with EFAs

> does not convert to fat.

So if someone ate 10,000cals of protein and EFAs there would be no fat gain

on the body?

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

> Guyton, " Textbook of Medical Physiology " , ninth edition,1996 has a

> section entitled, " Formation of Carbohydrates From Proteins and Fats-

> Gluconeogenesis. " The glycerol portion of fat, the majority of

amino

> acids from protein can be converted to carbohydrates, but with EFAs

> does not convert to fat.

Dale,

Do you know a ref that EFA's decrease lipogenesis?

Regards,

Christian , PhD

UCLA

[Guest guest]

*** sounds very interesting Ken - I'm sure that we all very much

look forward to hearing how it all went for you once you have looked

at everything together.

Regards

Ben Freeman

Melbourne, Australia

>Like I've said, at the end of 6 months, I'm going to lay everything

>out, look at my percentage of strength gains, muscle and body fat

>gains, and as many aspects that can be analyzed since beginning the

>diet. I'll definitely post all the details when I have them figured

>out at the end of February.

[Guest guest]

Telle wrote:

<<Unfortunately I'm

not quite with you on the discounted fiber and grams. If you would kindly

write a typical days food and amounts--my lagging comprehension might be

satisfied.>>

Telle, I probably didn't present a clear example in my last post, so here is

what a typical day might look like during my low-carb weekdays:

3:45 a.m.: Two 1/4 lb hamburgers, 2 pieces cheese, 1 oz. sunflower seeds [65

grams fat, 50 grams protein, 3 grams carbs (0.5 grams carbs per slice of cheese,

2 " countable " grams of carbs from sunflower seeds - there were 5 grams of carbs

listed on the nutrition label, 3 of which were fiber and not counted towards my

daily allotment)]

supplement: multivitamin/mineral, calcium/zinc/magnesium supplement

8 a.m.: 30 grams whey protein (prior to working out)

9:15 a.m.: 6 whole eggs, 2 slices cheese, 2 hot dogs [67 grams fat, 56 grams

protein, 6 grams carbs]

12 p.m.: tuna salad (full fat mayo, onions, celery), cauliflower, broccoli, 4

oz. heavy whipped cream with a bit of sugar free jello powder mixed in plus 2

packets splenda [60 grams fat, 36 grams protein, 5 grams carbs]

3 p.m.: two 1/4 pound hamburgers, 2 slices cheese, 1 oz. almonds [65 grams fat,

50 grams protein, 2 grams carbs (1 gram carbs from cheese, 1 gram carbs from

almonds - there was 5 total carbs listed per ounce of almonds, but 4 were listed

as fiber, therefore were not counted)]

7 p.m.: steak, mushroom/cream sauce, romaine salad with olive oil/vinegar

dressing, topped with various raw vegetables [60 grams fat, 40 grams protein, 2

grams carbs]

10 p.m.: protein supplement with 1 tablespoon olive oil, 1 tablespon flaxseed

oil, 1 pollio cheese stick [36 grams fat, 48 grams protein, 1 gram carb]

Totals: Fat = 353 grams; Protein = 310 grams; carbs = 19 grams

Total calories: 4500

Macronutrient ratios: 70% Fat, 27% protein, 3% carbs

I'll sometimes also snack on several servings of nuts as well as cheese sticks

throughout the day, which may add around 50 grams fat, 30 grams protein, 4-5

grams carbs

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

[Guest guest]

Dale Wallace wrote:

<<This is false,(New England Journal of Medicine,Vol 340, No.3,

January 21, 1999 ) fiber is just indigestible carbohydrate.

People want to believe that to get fiber for waste disposal from the

body,(waste attaches to fiber) we need to eat carbohydrates. If you

desire vegetable fiber, eat celery!

A point that is most often missed is meat has lots of fiber in it. Can

I ask what the reasoning for upping the carbs on the weekend is? If

you are feeling great and have lots of energy, workouts are going

great, then why the weekend carbs?>>

Dale, I have a firm grasp regarding where fiber comes from and good sources of

fiber. All I was talking about was that, when counting up grams of carbs

consumed throughout the day, I do not include the fiber portion consumed with my

" carb " sources. I've heard stories about people becoming constipated from the

lack of fiber on a high fat/high protein diet. However, without being overly

concerned about counting grams of fiber each day, I've had no such problems.

As for the reason for my weekend carb loads - this is perhaps the area of the

diet where I did the least amount of research and simply took the author's

explanation on faith. Supposedly, when switching from a high protein/high fat

diet to a short-term high carb diet, one's body increases the production of

various anabolic hormones. It has been suggested that during the first day of

carb loading, both insulin levels and GH reach higher than normal levels

simultaneously, something which normally does not occur (high insulin and GH

levels occurring at the same time). The broad based answer is that when cycling

macronutrients in this manner, one creates an " optimal " hormonal environment for

strength and muscle mass increases. It has also been said that this is

especially evident when moving from a low calorie, high fat/high protein intake

to a much higher calorie, short term high carb intake. Also, there is said to

be a " glycogen-supercompensation effect " when moving from high fat/high protein

to a short term high carb intake. This effect is said to increase the body's

storage of glyogen up to 30% over normal levels. So, the result is supposed to

be a sense of tremendous strength during your workouts a day or two following

one's carb load. Now, as I've stated, I've had great workouts later in the week

following several days of near zero carbs, so I'm not sure what the explanation

is there. Again, please let me reinforce that I am not presenting this as fact,

this information did not come from my personal research, but from the author of

the specific program I am following (Dr. Mauro DiPasquale's publications: " The

Metabolic Diet, " " The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders, " as well as " The

Anabolic Solution for Powerlifters " ). I say this to prevent any onslaught of

rebuttal information targeted at me personally. Although let me say, I do love

hearing as much counter-information as possible - it is most definitely one of

my favorite things about this list.

I truly believe that there is no one nutrition plan that fits everyone.

Different people respond differently to various diets. It may turn out that the

diet I'm following does not have a lot of research to back it up. However, the

simple fact that I began this diet as a severe skeptic, and have since

experienced such tremendous gains, the best in my life by far, leads me to

believe that I may be a few steps closer to a diet that fits my genetics.

Just as an aside, on the weekends, I am consuming quite a high amount of

calories, 5000+ on saturday, eating nearly anything I want, which includes a lot

of junk. The fact that my fat gain has been minimal has really surprised me.

Several of my brother's and sisters have returned home for the holiday this

weekend, and they are amazed at how much bigger I've become since they saw me

last in September. Who knows. Like I've said, at the end of 6 months, I'm

going to lay everything out, look at my percentage of strength gains, muscle and

body fat gains, and as many aspects that can be analyzed since beginning the

diet. I'll definitely post all the details when I have them figured out at the

end of February.

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

[Guest guest]

Telle wrote:

<<Excellent, perfect, wow 4500 cal? amazing ,thanks--now if you have any

patience left--a typical Saturday foods and amounts.>>

Well, I don't concern myself so much with the amount of fat or protein I consume

on the weekend. I simply try to eat a lot of food that's high in carbs,

moderate in protein, and moderate in fat. To be sure I'm consuming near my

target amount of carbs, I'll buy a few items and make sure I eat the entire

package throughout the day. These include boxes of frozen waffles, frozen

french toast, cereal, pasta, granola bars, pop tarts, whatever. I also eat all

day. During my lowcarb weekdays, I generally consume 5-8 meals a day. When

carbing up, I'll eat constantly. Here's what a saturday might look like:

3:30 a.m.: waffles, syrup, skim milk

7:30 a.m.: 2 bananas, 2 scoops whey protein

9 a.m.: several bowls of cereal, skim milk

11 a.m.: large portion frozen yogurt on a cone, apple, cereal

1p.m.: 3 large pieces of pizza, grapes

3p.m.: large serving of pasta, meat sauce

4:30 p.m.: cereal, plus several pop tarts/granola bars/nutrigrain bars, of

whatever else is handy to carry around at work

7:30 p.m.: chicken, baked potato, huge serving of as many veggies as I can eat,

glass or two of wine, ice cream for dessert

10 p.m.: cereal, whey protein

Let's say the cereal I buy is cheerios. There are approximately 450 grams of

carbs in that box. Also, for the waffles, there are 40 grams per serving, and I

may eat 4 servings - 160 grams. I make sure I've got that 600-700 gram range

covered, and the rest comes from everything else. The beginning of my carb ups

are always a joy, until around early afternoon, when I'm feeling bloated and

very full. But, I keep cramming food down my throat and make sure to drink as

much water as I can handle, usually around 2 gallons.

Sundays are a bit different, as I really don't count anything. I eat a more

" clean " diet and eat in a perhaps more " normal " fashion (4-6 meals per day, a

bit more of a balanced macronutriet ratio).

Pretty soon, I'm going to start to decrease calories, cutting down my fat on the

weekdays and cosuming more low glycemic carbs on the weekends. It's going to be

a gradual decrease, dropping down from 5000+ calories per day to somewhere

around 2000-3000. This will be no problem for me, as I have tremendous

willpower when it comes to sticking to a diet, whether it be bulking, cutting,

or maintaining. I'm curious to see if I can get my bodyfat into the single

digits and how much it affects my strength levels. While dieting, I'm thinking

of using an HST routine, as I've read that a lot of people have success using

this system while dieting.

What do you think?

Ken Manning

Scranton, PA

[Guest guest]

> I've been talking to some bodybuilders lately and most of them are

> on high protein low carbohydrate diets. Their consensus is that

they

> don't gain any weight (fat weight) when on these diets.

>

> The problem I'm having is they refuse to believe me when I say

that

> any excess protein that is not used for muscle synthesis or any

type

> of anabolic process (skin/fingernails/etc) is stored as fat.

>SNIP

> Melnyk

> College Park, MD

Where you're losing them is that their rationale is flawed - if the

body takes in excess calories, period, the excess of the *easiest

material/macronutrient to store* (ie. fat) would be stored as fat,

regardless of the ratio in the diet.

They aren't making this assumption - they forget that its not *just*

the protein that's eaten on a given day, its carbs, fats, and

proteins. Excess calories will force fat storage because we don't

just consume protein - the others are always ingested as well.

You're logic is also flawed with what you wrote above - its not the

excess protein that would necessarily be stored as fat, its the

overall excess that would store the fats/carbs in the diet as fat on

the body. Digestion is not as simple as " take in macronutient X and

it won't be stored as fat " since we take in every macronutrient

every day.

D.A. Hammel

Calgary, Alberta, Canada.