Re: Protein Storage - Bodybuilder myth?

[Guest guest]

>

> From: <Strenghth1@m...>

>

> > stored bodyfat to be converted to glucose which is used or

> > burned.

> Hamsih:

> Used or burned???

> Wallace: Poor choice of words, but as in energy

Hamish:

> This is all true. Barry Sears has been plugging glucagon for years.

However

> is it optimal? Is it optimal for some? Some people are purely

anaerobic

> athletes and will not need large glycogen stores (except possibly

for

> recovery) while others need to perform for longer than 10secs where

aerobic

Wallace: Yes a Marathon runner would probably need to carb load, but

when was the last time you saw an overweight elite runner?

> The glycerol portion of fat, the majority of amino

> > acids from protein can be converted to carbohydrates, but with

EFAs

> > does not convert to fat.

> Hamish:

> So if someone ate 10,000cals of protein and EFAs there would be no

fat gain

> on the body?

> Wallace: I would like to see the person who could eat that 10,000

calories of fat and protien while taking in your EFA's, this would be

one extremely large person or one incredibly sick person. I am asking

the questions because I have read Dr. Di Pasquale, but have not had

the chance to try to diet his way. I take in very little carbs, stay

lean, build muscle, healthy, and never run out of energy at 52. I

always wonder about " carb loading " ,as I wonder if alot of this isnt

water and bloating? Your body makes glucose with glycerol(from

bodyfat)combined with amino acids (from protein). Glucose, stored as

glycogen, can be stored in two areas: the liver and the muscles.

Glycogen in the muscle can only be used by the muscle it is stored in

and the brain can only use glycogen stored in the liver. The liver

stores very small amounts of glycogen. There is only about a 1200

calorie reserve in the muscles that can be burned in a short period

of time during intense muscle activity. It takes very few carbs to

keep the reserves full and any extra carbs are converted to bodyfat.

So whats the point during a diet of eating a bunch of carbs and

slowing the fat burning process? Just a question? Thanks for all the

answers and input.

Dale E Wallace

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

[Guest guest]

D.A. Hammel writes:

<< You're logic is also flawed with what you wrote above - its not the

excess protein that would necessarily be stored as fat, its the

overall excess that would store the fats/carbs in the diet as fat on

the body. Digestion is not as simple as " take in macronutient X and

it won't be stored as fat " since we take in every macronutrient

every day. >>

Telle--

I'll wager you can eat all the steamed (or raw!!) broccoli, cauliflower, dark

lettuce, raw carrots, etc., even until your skin carotenizes and you wont

gain fat (IF those are your only carb sources). And it just may be, as

indicated by contributing members of this list, that you can eat all the

protein and fat you want with it--and not gain fat?--at least much? more than

calorie count would indicate!

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

> Wallace: Yes a Marathon runner would probably need to carb load, but

> when was the last time you saw an overweight elite runner?

They are out there. I know of many who diet down for major events. When

endurance cycling I found that getting too low for too long opened me up to

many infection.

> > Wallace: I would like to see the person who could eat that 10,000

> calories of fat and protien while taking in your EFA's, this would be

> one extremely large person or one incredibly sick person.

Last time I used 3500cals and people didn't catch on. Point is, if someone

did eat that amount and burned far less they would gain body fat no matter

what macronutrient balance or if they ate a very low carb or very low fat

diet.

As an aside it has been suggested that people who have ectomorph body

structure may need to consume up to 10000 cals if they desire to put on

muscle. When I personal trained Molina (1988 Hawaii Ironman winner)

worked at the same gym. He wanted to put on some muslce and said he was

eating more than he did while training for a 10hour ironman.

> I am asking

> the questions because I have read Dr. Di Pasquale, but have not had

> the chance to try to diet his way. I take in very little carbs, stay

> lean, build muscle, healthy, and never run out of energy at 52.

I have to compare this with most anaerobic athletes (pro bodybuilders inc)

who seem to eat a very well balanced diet. However as mentioned in a

previous post by someone else these athletes carry out a higher volume of

training and will be working at higher intensities (they will also have

access to recovery and restoration and some do take drugs) which may

justify.

I did mentioned a while back that for purely anaerobic athletes or someone

(like myself or Jerry Telle) who is not doing much exercise that once one

gets their protein and enough fats to cover their EFA requirements there may

not be much need for many more cals whether they come from carbs or fat.

> always wonder about " carb loading " ,as I wonder if alot of this isnt

> water and bloating?

I wouldn't recomened it. Not even for endurance athletes.

> So whats the point during a diet of eating a bunch of carbs and

> slowing the fat burning process?

One shouldn't eat a bunch of carbs full stop. This is where insulin gets

nasty. Small meals and frequent exercise helps negate the problems with

insulin.

In terms of slowing the fat burning process I thought that taking in any

carbs shuts down lipolysis. 0% carb diet anyone?

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Ken Manning writes:

<< Pretty soon, I'm going to start to decrease calories, cutting down my fat

on the weekdays and costuming more low glycemic carbs on the weekends. It's

going to be a gradual decrease, dropping down from 5000+ calories per day to

somewhere around 2000-3000. This will be no problem for me, as I have

tremendous willpower when it comes to sticking to a diet, whether it be

bulking, cutting, or maintaining. I'm curious to see if I can get my bodyfat

into the single digits and how much it affects my strength levels. While

dieting, I'm thinking of using an HST routine, as I've read that a lot of

people have success using this system while dieting.

What do you think? >>

First I'm a firm believer in " All news is good news " if you careful monitor

all the interrelating variables--the numbers will tell you exactly what you

want to know--*you might not like it*--but the " process-outcome " relationship

will be there.

Which you then use to project the next phase -- as If you didn't know! Its a

bit of a stretch to welcome unwanted-expected news/data, but is critical in

developing the a " displaced process-outcome " mindset. Displaced as in

outcomes not immediate or contiguous with process!

I'm firmly convinced we are entirely capable of LINKING the

emotional/feeling-pain/pleasures associated with future outcomes to at the

moment processes(but have not been taught to do--fascinating subject). The

more intense the emotional feeling component realized with current process

the more that process will be integrally linked with future outcome, and the

less " will power " is needed. The internal " observer-organizer-energizer-doer "

will automatically follow the path of greatest satisfaction if it knows what

it is----WITH SENSORY/EMOTIONAL FEELING!!

Ken, I believe you already do this to a large? extent--at some level of

awareness and the more you tune into it and use it to direct your life and

training--the less " will power " is needed. I guess I'm assuming willpower at

least connotes " a doing against ones wishes or will??

Your candid take would be appreciated!

The " willpower " term is bantered about the commercial Psychology " self help "

set with huge ranges in definitions and usage's!

My apologies for the scattered presentation--It doesn't read very well to

me--but after staring at same for 3 hours I will seek the linguistic skills

of other list members.

Love your attitude except I'm a little disappointed that I agree with almost

everything you've said.

PB's and BEST HOLIDAY WISHES (to bad Xmas didnt fall on saturday!)

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

>When I personal trained Molina (1988 Hawaii Ironman winner)

>worked at the same gym.

Whoops, taking credit where not due. That should read: When I personal trained,

Molina...

Apologies

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Telle:

>I'll wager you can eat all the steamed (or raw!!) broccoli, cauliflower, dark

>lettuce, raw carrots, etc., even until your skin carotenizes and you wont

>gain fat (IF those are your only carb sources). And it just may be, as

>indicated by contributing members of this list,

Self reported food intake.

>that you can eat all the

>protein and fat you want with it--and not gain fat?--at least much? more than

>calorie count would indicate!

10,000 calories?

And what pray telle happens to these excess calories?

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson writes:

<< >that you can eat all the

>protein and fat you want with it--and not gain fat?--at least much? more than

>calorie count would indicate!

10,000 calories?

And what pray telle--CUTE! ;-}-- happens to these excess calories? >>

Well Hamish. first, real regular bowel patterns and second I didnt say I was

sure about the upper limit 10,000 calories--just that caloric in take does

not determine fat storage perse--but is a multi factoral function.

3000 calories of boston creem pies, T-bone steak, and potatoes drowned in

butter and sour cream is a far calorie from 3000 calories of carrots,

brocoli, cauliflower, fish, and fish flax sed oil!

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

* Kindly sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be

published.

[Guest guest]

It was written:

> > Wallace: I would like to see the person who could eat that 10,000

> > calories of fat and protien while taking in your EFA's, this would be

> > one extremely large person or one incredibly sick person.

I don't know how this discussion started because I missed many

issues... But I can eat 10000 calories of fat/protein. I am nuts for cashew

nuts... I can eat 2 lbs in one sitting while I am trying to control myself,

let me go lose and I could get in more. I don't feel sick, maybe a bit

heavy and full in my stomach :-) Needed to say, I don't do that every

day, so my weight/BF% is pretty good.

Suzanna McGee,

Ms Natural Olympia

Venice, CA

www.sixftlion.com

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published.

[Guest guest]

Jerry Telle:

> And what pray telle--CUTE! ;-}-- happens to these excess calories? >>

I have my moments:-)

> 3000 calories of boston creem pies, T-bone steak, and potatoes drowned in

> butter and sour cream is a far calorie from 3000 calories of carrots,

> brocoli, cauliflower, fish, and fish flax sed oil!

Or is it?

There will be a difference in terms of health between the two diets but is

there a difference in calories?

The former diet is lacking in many nutrients and any elite athlete who tried

it would not be able to train hard, could not recover well and would end up

sick.

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson writes:

Telle wrote

--3000 calories of Boston cream pies, T-bone steak, and potatoes drowned in

> butter and sour cream is a far calorie from 3000 calories of carrots,

> broccoli, cauliflower, fish, and fish flax seed oil!

Hamish Ferguson--

Or is it?

There will be a difference in terms of health between the two diets but is

there a difference in calories?

The former diet is lacking in many nutrients and any elite athlete who tried

it would not be able to train hard, could not recover well and would end up

sick.

Telle--

The scenario I attempted to portray was one of equal calories. You bring up a

good point regarding basic nutrients.

So mind games part II. *IF* it were possible to supply exactly? the same

nutrients, fats, carbs , proteins and calories via the " T-bone and Boston

cream pie " --vs " broccoli and fish " (as metaphors) protocols--what would be

the outcome for 50 identical twins separated into either group. And since

this is fantasy land--we have 100 N for 1800 cal/day, 100 N for 3000 cal/day,

100 N for 5000 cal/day and, etc.

Now the prospect of 9,000 cal via broc and white fish is somewhat absurd--but?

My guess is with everything else being equal (a cheap way out I realize)--I

say the " fish and broc " create the better outcome scenario for everyone

except Polynesian princesses, Sumo wrestlers, American beef and those seeking

" Guinness " fame?

Did I telle it like it is well enough?

Jerry telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

Suzanna McGee wrote:

<I don't know how this discussion started because I missed many

issues... But I can eat 10000 calories of fat/protein. I am nuts

for cashew nuts... I can eat 2 lbs in one sitting while I am trying to

control myself, let me go lose and I could get in more. I don't feel

sick, maybe a bit heavy and full in my stomach :-) Needed to say,

I don't do that every day, so my weight/BF% is pretty good.>

Suzanne, A quick look into the calories in cashew nuts, which by

the way are very good for you, although I don't know in that quantity,

would reveal to me that: 1oz =160cal. 1lb = 2560cal.

[Note that they may not be all that good for you if they are heavily

roasted, salted or slightly rancid. Mel Siff]

If my brain is not deceiving me(it does sometimes)you would have to

eat 3.90625 pounds to equal 10,000 cal. Not by any means saying you

couldn't do it, but not only would it be an expensive habit, but I

have a feeling that your stomach would feel real full and heavy. If

you care to spend the money and eat the full, let's say four pounds, in

one sitting, I would be quite interested in the results. Also please

be sure to take in your EFAs along with this.

The source of cashew calorie info was :

www.annecollins.com/diet_foods/cashew-nuts.htm

Dale E Wallace

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

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