Re: Child pulling own hair out

[Guest guest]

Fungal infection on her scalp which is making it very itchy? I think

fungal infections make hair fall out. Is it regrowing?

xx Sally

melander12000 wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> A friend of mine has a daughter who has pulled a lot of her hair out.

> She is on a restricted diet with a few supplements.

>

> CAMS assessing and school have suggested mittens.

>

> Anyone had this problem and got any ideas of cause ?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jane

>

>

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>

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> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 11/01/2008

18:09

>

[Guest guest]

Not necessarily. They can test for it. It is easy to get rid of.

Sally

Jane Hogan wrote:

>

> It hasn't had the chance to regrow - she has literally pulled so much

> out that her mum has had to cut it very short. I don't think there is

> anything visible on her scalp. Would you be able to see a fungal

> infection?

>

>

> * Re: Child pulling own hair out

>

> Fungal infection on her scalp which is making it very itchy? I think

> fungal infections make hair fall out. Is it regrowing?

> xx Sally

>

> melander12000 wrote:

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > A friend of mine has a daughter who has pulled a lot of her hair

> out.

> > She is on a restricted diet with a few supplements.

> >

> > CAMS assessing and school have suggested mittens.

> >

> > Anyone had this problem and got any ideas of cause ?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Jane

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date:

> 11/01/2008 18:09

> >

>

>

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>

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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 11/01/2008

18:09

>

[Guest guest]

It hasn't had the chance to regrow - she has literally pulled so much out that her mum has had to cut it very short. I don't think there is anything visible on her scalp. Would you be able to see a fungal infection?

Re: Child pulling own hair out

Fungal infection on her scalp which is making it very itchy? I think fungal infections make hair fall out. Is it regrowing?xx Sallymelander12000 wrote:>> Hi,>> A friend of mine has a daughter who has pulled a lot of her hair out.> She is on a restricted diet with a few supplements.>> CAMS assessing and school have suggested mittens.>> Anyone had this problem and got any ideas of cause ?>> Thanks,>> Jane>> > ---------------------------------------------------------->> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 11/01/2008 18:09>

[Guest guest]

Yes, of course, I do see what you mean but "stress" is, of course, a highly subjective term (as you stated.) There can be physical stress (such as muscle fatigue) and psychological stress and/or a combination of the two and it can sometimes be a bit chicken and egg to try to decipher which comes first.

However, I disagree that stress can be solely stated as a physical response. Stress can very much be a mental response to a situation that produces physical results (just think of a panic attack for instance) or stress doesn't necessarily have to produce any physical manifestations, just purely mental ones, such as the compulsion to pull one's hair out. (you may say this is a physical manifestation, I would not.)

I don't think my friend had any physical stress, ie, illness or other physical problems that caused her to pull her hair out. This is because once she learned how to manage her stress differently through CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) she stopped pulling her hair out. No physical issues were found or addressed.

I don't know if that makes sense, I think these ideas are quite subjective and also it's difficult to delineate between purely physical and purely psychological phenomenon. (

I am curious, Anita, are you stating that negative or unwanted behaviours (or SIB) all have a purely physical origin? (this is not a provocative question but I can't seem to phrase it where it doesn't sound like one, I am simply very curious about why you think this.)

Regards,

Darla

Darla,I think I see what you're saying (although I don't know what CBT is, so maybe I'm not) but it seems to me that if your friend did most of this when she was stressed, then the problem actually is based in the physical. Stress is a physical response. There is a psychological component to it in that what I perceive as stressful another person wouldn't even notice (eg. driving in England!) But stress itself is a physical response. Also, stress can reduce significantly our ability to feel pain (eg. a mom pulls her child from a fire and doesn't even notice her own burns until much later). So, the higher your friend's stress levels, perhaps the higher her ability to tolerate the pain of pulling her hair out. If someone pulled her hair out when she wasn't stressed, perhaps her tolerance of the pain would have been much diminished.So although your friend's behaviour was in fact a behavioural thing to some degree, I believe it wasn't purely behavioural, but started somewhere in her physical body with physical stress. Do you think that might be true?Anita :-)> >> > But also check that there isn't a physical reason -- all the > > professionals will be considering it behavioural so it's worth > > concentrating on the possibility of a physical basis.> > I agree. I cannot believe that pulling out one's own hair could be > behavioural, unless the child had absolutely no sensation of pain. > For SIB, I always strongly urge a parent to try supporting the > adrenal glands. For my son SIB was directly related to adrenal > fatigue. With the addition of extra B vitamins and vitamin C four > times daily, and nutricology adrenal cortex, his SIB was reduced > considerably. > > It went from smashing his own face against the floor, giving himself > bloody noses and shortening my life considerably, to now falling on > his knees when he is faced with extreme frustration. This makes me > believe that the urge to hurt oneself is often there in our kids (and > to be honest, I did it myself when I was young) but when there are > other extenuating physical circumstances, that urge is completely out > of control. So, the behaviour to pull one's own hair could be dealt > with behaviourally, but the action of pulling one's own hair OUT is > something much more than a behaviour.> > Anita>

[Guest guest]

Darla,

I think I see what you're saying (although I don't know what CBT is,

so maybe I'm not) but it seems to me that if your friend did most of

this when she was stressed, then the problem actually is based in the

physical. Stress is a physical response. There is a psychological

component to it in that what I perceive as stressful another person

wouldn't even notice (eg. driving in England!) But stress itself is

a physical response. Also, stress can reduce significantly our

ability to feel pain (eg. a mom pulls her child from a fire and

doesn't even notice her own burns until much later). So, the higher

your friend's stress levels, perhaps the higher her ability to

tolerate the pain of pulling her hair out. If someone pulled her

hair out when she wasn't stressed, perhaps her tolerance of the pain

would have been much diminished.

So although your friend's behaviour was in fact a behavioural thing

to some degree, I believe it wasn't purely behavioural, but started

somewhere in her physical body with physical stress. Do you think

that might be true?

Anita :-)

> >

> > But also check that there isn't a physical reason -- all the

> > professionals will be considering it behavioural so it's worth

> > concentrating on the possibility of a physical basis.

>

> I agree. I cannot believe that pulling out one's own hair could be

> behavioural, unless the child had absolutely no sensation of pain.

> For SIB, I always strongly urge a parent to try supporting the

> adrenal glands. For my son SIB was directly related to adrenal

> fatigue. With the addition of extra B vitamins and vitamin C four

> times daily, and nutricology adrenal cortex, his SIB was reduced

> considerably.

>

> It went from smashing his own face against the floor, giving

himself

> bloody noses and shortening my life considerably, to now falling

on

> his knees when he is faced with extreme frustration. This makes me

> believe that the urge to hurt oneself is often there in our kids

(and

> to be honest, I did it myself when I was young) but when there are

> other extenuating physical circumstances, that urge is completely

out

> of control. So, the behaviour to pull one's own hair could be

dealt

> with behaviourally, but the action of pulling one's own hair OUT

is

> something much more than a behaviour.

>

> Anita

>

[Guest guest]

Our boy pulled his hair out 2 years ago when he was about 3, he

pulled the entire forelock out and we had to shave his head.

Now, only recently, he is getting a bald spot at the back, and is due

to curling his hair at the crown of his head round his finger.

two things were similar in both instances, we allowed his hair to

grow long.

also, he had a fungal or excema growth on that site about 2 - 3

months ago.

he pulls at his hair most when he is settling down to sleep, i go in

to check on him and see all these " curls " where he has been twisting

his hair.

i dont know if he is feeling pain, he could be, he has so many

issues.

> > >

> > > But also check that there isn't a physical reason -- all the

> > > professionals will be considering it behavioural so it's worth

> > > concentrating on the possibility of a physical basis.

> >

> > I agree. I cannot believe that pulling out one's own hair could

be

> > behavioural, unless the child had absolutely no sensation of

pain.

> > For SIB, I always strongly urge a parent to try supporting the

> > adrenal glands. For my son SIB was directly related to adrenal

> > fatigue. With the addition of extra B vitamins and vitamin C

four

> > times daily, and nutricology adrenal cortex, his SIB was reduced

> > considerably.

> >

> > It went from smashing his own face against the floor, giving

> himself

> > bloody noses and shortening my life considerably, to now falling

> on

> > his knees when he is faced with extreme frustration. This makes

me

> > believe that the urge to hurt oneself is often there in our kids

> (and

> > to be honest, I did it myself when I was young) but when there

are

> > other extenuating physical circumstances, that urge is

completely

> out

> > of control. So, the behaviour to pull one's own hair could be

> dealt

> > with behaviourally, but the action of pulling one's own hair OUT

> is

> > something much more than a behaviour.

> >

> > Anita

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You could check that the fungus is gone because it can be hard to see

and very hard to get rid of. My husband has had a fungal infection on

the skin of his hand for about five years. It goes and then returns,

spreads, disappears and then comes back -- all this despite treatment

from doctor. it is very itchy. If you know he had one, it might be worth

checking that it is gone

xx Sally

bbrowne123 wrote:

>

> Our boy pulled his hair out 2 years ago when he was about 3, he

> pulled the entire forelock out and we had to shave his head.

>

> Now, only recently, he is getting a bald spot at the back, and is due

> to curling his hair at the crown of his head round his finger.

>

> two things were similar in both instances, we allowed his hair to

> grow long.

>

> also, he had a fungal or excema growth on that site about 2 - 3

> months ago.

>

> he pulls at his hair most when he is settling down to sleep, i go in

> to check on him and see all these " curls " where he has been twisting

> his hair.

>

> i dont know if he is feeling pain, he could be, he has so many

> issues.

>

> > > >

> > > > But also check that there isn't a physical reason -- all the

> > > > professionals will be considering it behavioural so it's worth

> > > > concentrating on the possibility of a physical basis.

> > >

> > > I agree. I cannot believe that pulling out one's own hair could

> be

> > > behavioural, unless the child had absolutely no sensation of

> pain.

> > > For SIB, I always strongly urge a parent to try supporting the

> > > adrenal glands. For my son SIB was directly related to adrenal

> > > fatigue. With the addition of extra B vitamins and vitamin C

> four

> > > times daily, and nutricology adrenal cortex, his SIB was reduced

> > > considerably.

> > >

> > > It went from smashing his own face against the floor, giving

> > himself

> > > bloody noses and shortening my life considerably, to now falling

> > on

> > > his knees when he is faced with extreme frustration. This makes

> me

> > > believe that the urge to hurt oneself is often there in our kids

> > (and

> > > to be honest, I did it myself when I was young) but when there

> are

> > > other extenuating physical circumstances, that urge is

> completely

> > out

> > > of control. So, the behaviour to pull one's own hair could be

> > dealt

> > > with behaviourally, but the action of pulling one's own hair OUT

> > is

> > > something much more than a behaviour.

> > >

> > > Anita

> > >

> >

>

>

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>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 14/01/2008

17:39

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

My middle daughter pulled out massive paches of soft baby type hair

from her hairline when she was about 9. Her dad and i had separated

(now back together!) and she couldn't explain why she did it. She

said it made her breathe easier (her words) it sounded at the time

like how self harmers feel. She was mortified by it, and got picked

on at school. bad, bad times. She did eventually grow out of it. We

used one of those wide soft alice band things to cover up the

hairline and to remind her fingers to stop if she felt them creeping

up towards her head.

Jane

x

> > > >

> > > > But also check that there isn't a physical reason -- all the

> > > > professionals will be considering it behavioural so it's

worth

> > > > concentrating on the possibility of a physical basis.

> > >

> > > I agree. I cannot believe that pulling out one's own hair

could

> be

> > > behavioural, unless the child had absolutely no sensation of

> pain.

> > > For SIB, I always strongly urge a parent to try supporting the

> > > adrenal glands. For my son SIB was directly related to adrenal

> > > fatigue. With the addition of extra B vitamins and vitamin C

> four

> > > times daily, and nutricology adrenal cortex, his SIB was

reduced

> > > considerably.

> > >

> > > It went from smashing his own face against the floor, giving

> > himself

> > > bloody noses and shortening my life considerably, to now

falling

> > on

> > > his knees when he is faced with extreme frustration. This

makes

> me

> > > believe that the urge to hurt oneself is often there in our

kids

> > (and

> > > to be honest, I did it myself when I was young) but when there

> are

> > > other extenuating physical circumstances, that urge is

> completely

> > out

> > > of control. So, the behaviour to pull one's own hair could be

> > dealt

> > > with behaviourally, but the action of pulling one's own hair

OUT

> > is

> > > something much more than a behaviour.

> > >

> > > Anita

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't think my friend had any physical stress, ie, illness or

other

> physical problems that caused her to pull her hair out. This is

because once she

> learned how to manage her stress differently through CBT (cognitive

behavioural

> therapy) she stopped pulling her hair out. No physical issues were

found or

> addressed.

Well, I'm not very convinced that because someone learns to behave in

a different way, that the problems weren't physical to begin with.

Our kids are a good example. I think that ABA can work, for example,

but I don't think it can do much to address the physical problems

that were the cause of the autism in the first place. So even if the

problems disappear in terms of behaviour after ABA, it doesn't mean

they weren't physical to begin with.

>

> I am curious, Anita, are you stating that negative or unwanted

behaviours

> (or SIB) all have a purely physical origin? (this is not a

provocative

> question but I can't seem to phrase it where it doesn't sound like

one, I am simply

> very curious about why you think this.)

>

I know you're not trying to be provocative Darla. It's hard to hash

these things back and forth in a written venue without sounding all

cold and argumentative. I don't like how I come across in these

things, but I do think it's good to " discuss " them--it would be much

better to do so face to face :-)

I don't think all negative or unwanted behaviours have a purely

physical origin, but I do believe a lot of them do, and I believe

that SIB, especially when it is extreme, like pulling your own hair

out or smashing your face, always has a physical origin. I guess,

like lots of us, when I think about these questions I think about my

own son. It just does not make sense to believe that my son would

hurt himself to get attention, or to manipulate me, or to get some

sort of sensory input (and I've been told all of these things by the

so-called experts). I've also seen rapid changes in him when we

address physical issues, the adrenal glands being a huge one, without

doing a single thing to address the behaviour.

I think too that I'd rather err on the side of assuming something is

not simply a behaviour. Not too long ago on another list a mom

wrote about how the ABA therapist ended up causing the child to break

his leg while she was forcing him to comply to her commands of stand

up and sit down. She could not see the pain the child was in with a

broken leg and continued to force him to comply. She only saw non-

compliant behaviour. I know this example is extreme, but it has

been the same with my son. His therapist would see an antecedent

(eg. hand over hand prompting) followed by a behaviour (screaming and

trying to leave the room). What I would see is a child scared out of

his wits, sensorily overwhelmed, without the physical capacity the

rest of us have to deal with these things. Later, when my son was

better with this, she thought it was from practice, while I saw a

child on the other end of a viral protocol (who had not, in fact,

practiced).

Best,

Anita

[Guest guest]

isn't this called "trich....." I looked into this years ago and I seem to remember serotonin involvement or something like that.

Re: Child pulling own hair out

> > I don't think my friend had any physical stress, ie, illness or other > physical problems that caused her to pull her hair out. This is because once she > learned how to manage her stress differently through CBT (cognitive behavioural > therapy) she stopped pulling her hair out. No physical issues were found or > addressed. Well, I'm not very convinced that because someone learns to behave in a different way, that the problems weren't physical to begin with. Our kids are a good example. I think that ABA can work, for example, but I don't think it can do much to address the physical problems that were the cause of the autism in the first place. So even if the problems disappear in terms of behaviour after ABA, it doesn't mean they weren't physical to begin with.> > I am curious, Anita, are you stating that negative or unwanted behaviours > (or SIB) all have a purely physical origin? (this is not a provocative > question but I can't seem to phrase it where it doesn't sound like one, I am simply > very curious about why you think this.)> I know you're not trying to be provocative Darla. It's hard to hash these things back and forth in a written venue without sounding all cold and argumentative. I don't like how I come across in these things, but I do think it's good to "discuss" them--it would be much better to do so face to face :-) I don't think all negative or unwanted behaviours have a purely physical origin, but I do believe a lot of them do, and I believe that SIB, especially when it is extreme, like pulling your own hair out or smashing your face, always has a physical origin. I guess, like lots of us, when I think about these questions I think about my own son. It just does not make sense to believe that my son would hurt himself to get attention, or to manipulate me, or to get some sort of sensory input (and I've been told all of these things by the so-called experts). I've also seen rapid changes in him when we address physical issues, the adrenal glands being a huge one, without doing a single thing to address the behaviour.I think too that I'd rather err on the side of assuming something is not simply a behaviour. Not too long ago on another list a mom wrote about how the ABA therapist ended up causing the child to break his leg while she was forcing him to comply to her commands of stand up and sit down. She could not see the pain the child was in with a broken leg and continued to force him to comply. She only saw non-compliant behaviour. I know this example is extreme, but it has been the same with my son. His therapist would see an antecedent (eg. hand over hand prompting) followed by a behaviour (screaming and trying to leave the room). What I would see is a child scared out of his wits, sensorily overwhelmed, without the physical capacity the rest of us have to deal with these things. Later, when my son was better with this, she thought it was from practice, while I saw a child on the other end of a viral protocol (who had not, in fact, practiced).Best,Anita

[Guest guest]

Crying all the time for no reason, ditto hormonal. My older daughter has big time PMT moods and I know when she is due by her tears/shouting/high anxiety levels.

>>This went away for me on high dose fish oils, I was using Eye Q and Kirkman CLO and an Odd Quarma (EPO)

FWIW

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

on the " breaking leg " thing being " behavioural " , our idiot (ex) ABA

providers stated that everything, even breaking a leg is behavioural

with " our " children.

I had an hour long argument with the director of the company (which

soon led to the termination of the contract) about this where the

person said if a child with autism (not just any child, only a child

with autism) breaks a leg, it was predetermined by behaviour, either

the child wanted to break the leg subconsciously, put themselves in a

position where breaking a leg would receive reinforcement, etc etc.

Yeah, whatever. I have a friend who is currently drinking herself to

death and another who takes incredible crap from her husband due to

lack of self esteem and a whole host of other issues.

they are both in pain, sometimes physical pain. their behaviour is a

result of pain.

this

>

>

> >

> > I don't think my friend had any physical stress, ie, illness or

> other

> > physical problems that caused her to pull her hair out. This is

> because once she

> > learned how to manage her stress differently through CBT

(cognitive

> behavioural

> > therapy) she stopped pulling her hair out. No physical issues

were

> found or

> > addressed.

>

> Well, I'm not very convinced that because someone learns to behave

in

> a different way, that the problems weren't physical to begin with.

> Our kids are a good example. I think that ABA can work, for

example,

> but I don't think it can do much to address the physical problems

> that were the cause of the autism in the first place. So even if

the

> problems disappear in terms of behaviour after ABA, it doesn't mean

> they weren't physical to begin with.

>

>

> >

> > I am curious, Anita, are you stating that negative or unwanted

> behaviours

> > (or SIB) all have a purely physical origin? (this is not a

> provocative

> > question but I can't seem to phrase it where it doesn't sound

like

> one, I am simply

> > very curious about why you think this.)

> >

>

>

> I know you're not trying to be provocative Darla. It's hard to

hash

> these things back and forth in a written venue without sounding all

> cold and argumentative. I don't like how I come across in these

> things, but I do think it's good to " discuss " them--it would be

much

> better to do so face to face :-)

>

> I don't think all negative or unwanted behaviours have a purely

> physical origin, but I do believe a lot of them do, and I believe

> that SIB, especially when it is extreme, like pulling your own hair

> out or smashing your face, always has a physical origin. I guess,

> like lots of us, when I think about these questions I think about

my

> own son. It just does not make sense to believe that my son would

> hurt himself to get attention, or to manipulate me, or to get some

> sort of sensory input (and I've been told all of these things by

the

> so-called experts). I've also seen rapid changes in him when we

> address physical issues, the adrenal glands being a huge one,

without

> doing a single thing to address the behaviour.

>

>

> I think too that I'd rather err on the side of assuming something

is

> not simply a behaviour. Not too long ago on another list a mom

> wrote about how the ABA therapist ended up causing the child to

break

> his leg while she was forcing him to comply to her commands of

stand

> up and sit down. She could not see the pain the child was in with

a

> broken leg and continued to force him to comply. She only saw non-

> compliant behaviour. I know this example is extreme, but it has

> been the same with my son. His therapist would see an antecedent

> (eg. hand over hand prompting) followed by a behaviour (screaming

and

> trying to leave the room). What I would see is a child scared out

of

> his wits, sensorily overwhelmed, without the physical capacity the

> rest of us have to deal with these things. Later, when my son was

> better with this, she thought it was from practice, while I saw a

> child on the other end of a viral protocol (who had not, in fact,

> practiced).

>

> Best,

> Anita

>

[Guest guest]

I agree that both areas need to be looked at - I think its important

for parents to consider behavioural since they have the best insights

about their own child, along with their biomed programme - I didnt

intend to divert the conversation, only to add something else.

Interestingly my son stopped smashing his face on the floor/walls with

the removal of gluten, headbutting people stopped with purely

behavioural - though I believe his biomed made the behavioural

strategies more accessible - chewing his fingers and pulling his hair

out at the back improved with biomed/behavioural/distraction (and

cutting his hair), and also shrieking improved with biomed, but I

stopped supps for 2 weeks to do some stool and urine samples and the

shrieking came back, 3 days of supps and its stopped again.......if

only I knew which bits and why?!?!?! I have to believe its a bit of

everything or I'd go doolally :-)

Mel x x

[Guest guest]

and when I say behavioural, I'm only talking about applying a theory to

get an insight, personally I dont agree with the strict ABA stuff for

us, preferring a more child-centred approach - but that doesnt stop me

cherry picking the bits that make sense to me and work for us. Sorry,

feeling a bit concerned now that you think I'd break my childs legs to

get him in a chair.....paranoia!!

[Guest guest]

All children are guided behaviourally into the behaviours that we want

to see -- sit quietly, stay in bed etc. I don't think it's anything to

feel shame or anxiety about. I think that our kids sometimes can't do

normal behaviour because they feel so bad. Sometimes they could do

normal behaviour but don't want to (just like any child). Sorting out

which is which and guiding them on the right path is our job as parents.

Doctors get confused too and say stuff is behavioural when all they mean

is that they don't understand the physical cause. Afterall there's only

one me and it's physical. There isn't a body and me (if you see what I

mean). I tend to think that behavioural describes stuff we don't know

the physical reason for -- a limp is behaviour but it's caused by a sore

foot. Blowing your nose all the time is behaviour and it's caused by a

virus. Not sleeping in a regular pattern by 2 is behaviour and it's

caused by a hormonal imbalance. Crying all the time for no reason, ditto

hormonal. My older daughter has big time PMT moods and I know when she

is due by her tears/shouting/high anxiety levels.

Pulling your hair out is behaviour and it's caused by........... Maybe

the reason is unknowable at this time and all we can do is cope with the

behaviour but we should think physical first.

The stuff about chairs..........no one does that surely?

xx Sally

mel_thomsett wrote:

>

> and when I say behavioural, I'm only talking about applying a theory to

> get an insight, personally I dont agree with the strict ABA stuff for

> us, preferring a more child-centred approach - but that doesnt stop me

> cherry picking the bits that make sense to me and work for us. Sorry,

> feeling a bit concerned now that you think I'd break my childs legs to

> get him in a chair.....paranoia!!

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 14/01/2008

17:39

>

[Guest guest]

>

> and when I say behavioural, I'm only talking about applying a

theory to

> get an insight, personally I dont agree with the strict ABA stuff

for

> us, preferring a more child-centred approach - but that doesnt stop

me

> cherry picking the bits that make sense to me and work for us.

Sorry,

> feeling a bit concerned now that you think I'd break my childs legs

to

> get him in a chair.....paranoia!!

Oh dear Mel I'd never think anything like that about you or any of

the wonderful people on this list! I think all of us are saying

pretty much the same thing here to some degree. I'm all for figuring

out what things (antecedents) are setting a child off and trying to

avoid rewarding those and encouraging bad behaviour, but, just like

you, never at the cost of ignoring the physical reasons altogether.

Just like Sally said, there is only one me, and history has taught us

that there is a physical reason for much of what has been pegged

as " psychological " . Omega 3 fatty acids and depression, ulcers and

bacteria, autism, but there are dozens of examples.

I also pick and choose from everything that makes sense to me. It

worked for me with my other kids. Worked for me as a teacher. I

don't see why I wouldn't do the same, both therapeutically and

biomedically for my son, even though there are plenty of people

offering what they claim is THE answer for autism.

Best,

Anita

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm not very convinced that because someone learns to behave in a different way, that the problems weren't physical to begin with. Our kids are a good example. I think that ABA can work, for example, but I don't think it can do much to address the physical problems that were the cause of the autism in the first place. So even if the problems disappear in terms of behaviour after ABA, it doesn't mean they weren't physical to begin with.

Yes, I think I agree, Anita, although I have to admit I'm getting a bit confused about either of our positions here.

But here's a problem that I have with this type of thinking, you are saying that behaviours (negative behaviours) are often caused by an underlying physical problem. Does this mean that the child doesn't have a choice? This is what I am most interested in, where does the choice lie when there is a physical underlying problem? If you say that unwanted behaviours are determined by physical problems then that reduces human behaviour to biological determinism, doesn't it?

For instance, is tantruming a lot right now, I believe that the primary (but not sole) cause of this behaviour is anaemia. We are doing everything we can to help his iron levels, however, we have to continue to expect him to behave as we would any other child in this circumstance, that is, we cannot allow his autism to be an excuse for him to behave badly when he doesn't feel well. (when I say behave badly, I don't mean crying, crying is not bad behaviour, I mean pulling OUR hair out, screaming, attacking us, you all know what I mean.)

Effectively what he has to learn is how to feel poorly but still behave in a reasonably civilised manner. This is very very hard to balance - our basic expectations of him with our understanding that he doesn't feel well. Nonetheless, I do believe that he has a choice and with our support and help he can learn to mediate his environment, even when feeling poorly, in a more effective manner than tantrums and attacks.

BTW, I never intended for this discussion to go towards ABA, (although I realise that you were using it as an example) when I referred to behaviour, I did not mean that behaviours should be dealt with using the methods of behaviour analysis or ABA. I was referring to behaviour defined as human action as Sally explained.

Just to clarify, CBT is not similar to ABA in that CBT addresses the underlying thoughts that provoke behaviours and ABA deals more with the stimulus that provokes behaviour rather than the thoughts about the stimulus.

All the best,

Darla

[Guest guest]

Mm, that this was determinism occurred to me while I was writing. It's

so crucial to our view of ourselves that we are choosing between good

and evil etc, determinism takes away that choice. It's very important

not to take away choice or people feel doomed by their surroundings -- I

remember hearing someone talk about the deprived inner cities and the

poverty and crime etc and they appeared to be feeling that the crime was

caused by the poverty (and who could disagree that it's much easier to

be lawabiding if you've got money)........and someone else butted in (I

think this must have been a parliamentary debate) and said that the

first speaker was denigrating all the poor AND HONEST people in the

inner cities and poverty and crime were not the same thing -- one did

not inevitably lead to the other. We are getting onto theology, I think,

certainly a long way from .

xx Sally

rexel45@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 15/01/2008 21:41:34 GMT Standard Time,

> mysuperteach@... writes:

>

> Well, I'm not very convinced that because someone learns to behave in

> a different way, that the problems weren't physical to begin with.

> Our kids are a good example. I think that ABA can work, for example,

> but I don't think it can do much to address the physical problems

> that were the cause of the autism in the first place. So even if the

> problems disappear in terms of behaviour after ABA, it doesn't mean

> they weren't physical to begin with.

>

> Yes, I think I agree, Anita, although I have to admit I'm getting a

> bit confused about either of our positions here.

>

> But here's a problem that I have with this type of thinking, you are

> saying that behaviours (negative behaviours) are often caused by an

> underlying physical problem. Does this mean that the child doesn't

> have a choice? This is what I am most interested in, where does the

> choice lie when there is a physical underlying problem? If you say

> that unwanted behaviours are determined by physical problems then that

> reduces human behaviour to biological determinism, doesn't it?

>

> For instance, is tantruming a lot right now, I believe that the

> primary (but not sole) cause of this behaviour is anaemia. We are

> doing everything we can to help his iron levels, however, we have to

> continue to expect him to behave as we would any other child in this

> circumstance, that is, we cannot allow his autism to be an excuse for

> him to behave badly when he doesn't feel well. (when I say behave

> badly, I don't mean crying, crying is not bad behaviour, I mean

> pulling OUR hair out, screaming, attacking us, you all know what I mean.)

>

> Effectively what he has to learn is how to feel poorly but still

> behave in a reasonably civilised manner. This is very very hard to

> balance - our basic expectations of him with our understanding that he

> doesn't feel well. Nonetheless, I do believe that he has a choice and

> with our support and help he can learn to mediate his environment,

> even when feeling poorly, in a more effective manner than tantrums and

> attacks.

>

> BTW, I never intended for this discussion to go towards ABA, (although

> I realise that you were using it as an example) when I referred to

> behaviour, I did not mean that behaviours should be dealt with using

> the methods of behaviour analysis or ABA. I was referring to

> behaviour defined as human action as Sally explained.

>

> Just to clarify, CBT is not similar to ABA in that CBT addresses the

> underlying thoughts that provoke behaviours and ABA deals more with

> the stimulus that provokes behaviour rather than the thoughts about

> the stimulus.

>

> All the best,

> Darla

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.4/1227 - Release Date: 16/01/2008

01:40

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Yes, I think I agree, Anita, although I have to admit I'm getting a

bit

> confused about either of our positions here.

Actually, I do think we're saying the same thing, but I'm afraid I'm

not using terms very precisely.

>

> But here's a problem that I have with this type of thinking, you

are saying

> that behaviours (negative behaviours) are often caused by an

underlying

> physical problem. Does this mean that the child doesn't have a

choice? This is

> what I am most interested in, where does the choice lie when there

is a

> physical underlying problem? If you say that unwanted behaviours

are determined

> by physical problems then that reduces human behaviour to

biological

> determinism, doesn't it?

Well, some things are. For eg, if one had syphillis and became mad,

then being sane wasn't really a choice. On the other hand, when I

become bitchy because my allergies are draining me, as an adult I do

have a choice to not be that way.

>

> For instance, is tantruming a lot right now, I believe that

the primary

> (but not sole) cause of this behaviour is anaemia. We are doing

everything

> we can to help his iron levels, however, we have to continue to

expect him to

> behave as we would any other child in this circumstance, that is,

we cannot

> allow his autism to be an excuse for him to behave badly when he

doesn't feel

> well. (when I say behave badly, I don't mean crying, crying is

not bad

> behaviour, I mean pulling OUR hair out, screaming, attacking us,

you all know

> what I mean.)

>

> Effectively what he has to learn is how to feel poorly but still

behave in a

> reasonably civilised manner. This is very very hard to balance -

our basic

> expectations of him with our understanding that he doesn't feel

well.

> Nonetheless, I do believe that he has a choice and with our

support and help he can

> learn to mediate his environment, even when feeling poorly, in a

more

> effective manner than tantrums and attacks.

Yes, this is the difficult part. For us and our kids. We can't have

them hurting themselves or others, regardless of what's going on.

Like you though, it makes me crazy that so many people think that

it's simply a matter of better parenting/being firmer with the

child. Chronic pain coupled with an inability to communicate with

people would often make good choices difficult, perhaps impossible,

for someone who is functioning at the level of the average 12 month

old for example.

>

> BTW, I never intended for this discussion to go towards ABA,

(although I

> realise that you were using it as an example) when I referred to

behaviour, I

> did not mean that behaviours should be dealt with using the methods

of

> behaviour analysis or ABA. I was referring to behaviour defined

as human action as

> Sally explained.

>

> Just to clarify, CBT is not similar to ABA in that CBT addresses

the

> underlying thoughts that provoke behaviours and ABA deals more

with the stimulus

> that provokes behaviour rather than the thoughts about the

stimulus.

Now I'm really befuddled ;-) I wasn't making such distinctions,

which muddied the conversation.

My best too,

Anita

>

> All the best,

> Darla

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Problem solved - it was toothache!

Child pulling own hair out

Hi,A friend of mine has a daughter who has pulled a lot of her hair out.She is on a restricted diet with a few supplements.CAMS assessing and school have suggested mittens.Anyone had this problem and got any ideas of cause ?Thanks,Jane