RE: Trouble maker patients

July 30, 2012

Hi Dr. Grossman,

The first thing I would advise you to do is call your malpractice carrier and gain their insight/direction as per next steps. Give’em all the details and gain

instructions as per next steps from your carrier prior to communicating again with the patient if at all….

-----

Vern Saboe, Jr, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO.

915 19th Ave SE

Albany, OR 97322

phone:

e-mail: vern@...

website: www.drvernsaboe.com

From: oregondcs [mailto:oregondcs ]

On Behalf Of Katanah Grossman

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 3:29 PM

To: oregondcs

Subject: Trouble maker patients

I was wondering if anyone could help me with a situation. I have a patient that claims to have been burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an informed consent that stated that certain

complications from her visit could include burns. The strange part about this situation is that the patient did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In fact, our massage therapist was the one that told her that it looked like she had a scratch on her

back four days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at that time was unaware of the scratch. She then told me at her next visit that she was burned by the machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she couldn't scream for me to help her.

All of these stories are not matching up at all. Now her boyfriend, who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist that he has sued the city for a television falling on him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water

being dropped on her in a drive thru. This makes me very worried that they are trouble makers. I advised the patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if she was worried. Now I just received a call from her boyfriend who said that she was at the medical

doctor and wants me to pay for the bill. This seems pretty ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar problem.

Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

Healthy Living Chiropractic

10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

Clackamas, Oregon 97015

P:

F:

July 30, 2012

I would immediately contact one of our fine attorneys on this list

serve and stop any and all contact with at least the female, and

probably the male counterpart in this situation. Yes, it does sound

fishy.

If you accept responsibility for any of this without council or

contacting your malpractice insurance, you will pay dearly and your

insurance might not pay anything later if there is a lawsuit.

Contact the Gatti firm right away.

Grice, DC

Albany, OR

On 7/30/2012 3:29 PM, Katanah Grossman

wrote:

I was wondering if anyone could help me with a

situation. I have a patient that claims to have been

burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an

informed consent that stated that certain

complications from her visit could include burns. The

strange part about this situation is that the patient

did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In

fact, our massage therapist was the one that told her

that it looked like she had a scratch on her back four

days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at

that time was unaware of the scratch. She then told

me at her next visit that she was burned by the

machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she

couldn't scream for me to help her. All of these

stories are not matching up at all. Now her

boyfriend, who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist

that he has sued the city for a television falling on

him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me

that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being

dropped on her in a drive thru. This makes me very

worried that they are trouble makers. I advised the

patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if she

was worried. Now I just received a call from her

boyfriend who said that she was at the medical doctor

and wants me to pay for the bill. This seems pretty

ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a

lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone

else has had a similar problem.

Katanah

Grossman, DC,CCSP®

Healthy Living Chiropractic

10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

Clackamas, Oregon 97015

P:

F:

July 30, 2012

This does sound strange, but I have seen electrode

burns from EMS from faulty electrodes.

Ted Forcum,

DC, DACBSP

Back In Motion Sports Injuries

Clinic, LLC

Portland Timbers Team Chiropractor

Portland Winterhawks Team Chiropractor

ACA Sports Council, Past

President

'08 US Olympic Sports Medicine Team

Member

11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road

Beaverton, Oregon 97008

www.bimsportsinjuries.com

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under

applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity

named above. If the recipient of this message is not the intended recipient,

you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this

communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication

in error, please notify Back In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC at 11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road, Beaverton, OR-97008.

and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or

distribution.

From:

oregondcs [mailto:oregondcs ] On Behalf Of Grice

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 3:58

PM

To: Katanah Grossman

Cc: oregondcs

Subject: Re:

Trouble maker patients

I would immediately contact one of our fine attorneys

on this list serve and stop any and all contact with at least the female, and

probably the male counterpart in this situation. Yes, it does sound

fishy.

If you accept responsibility for any of this without council or contacting your

malpractice insurance, you will pay dearly and your insurance might not pay

anything later if there is a lawsuit. Contact the Gatti firm right away.

Grice, DC

Albany, OR

I was

wondering if anyone could help me with a situation. I have a patient that

claims to have been burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an

informed consent that stated that certain complications from her visit could

include burns. The strange part about this situation is that the patient

did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In fact, our massage

therapist was the one that told her that it looked like she had a scratch on

her back four days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at that

time was unaware of the scratch. She then told me at her next visit that

she was burned by the machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she

couldn't scream for me to help her. All of these stories are not matching

up at all. Now her boyfriend, who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist

that he has sued the city for a television falling on him during jury duty, and

my patient is telling me that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being dropped

on her in a drive thru. This makes me very worried that they are trouble

makers. I advised the patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if

she was worried. Now I just received a call from her boyfriend who said

that she was at the medical doctor and wants me to pay for the bill. This

seems pretty ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a lawyer

for my business but wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar problem.

Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

Healthy Living Chiropractic

10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

Clackamas, Oregon 97015

P:

F:

July 30, 2012

Dr. Grossman,

It's my considered legal opinion based on your post that it's a shame you didn't

have anything on hand hot enough to " accidentally " sterilize this couple. Call

your business lawyer and s/he will tell you how to make sure you're protected

from these " people's " " claims. "

For everyone else, just the basics: be polite and professional, but refuse to

continue treating patients who give you this impression. Don't interact with

these people without witnesses, and do nothing orally or on paper in any way

that could be seen as accepting fault if you don't believe you or your staff is

at fault. Even things you write down privately (e.g. e-mail) may be

discoverable in a lawsuit (even an abusive/frivolous/extortionate lawsuit), so

always follow the New York Times rule.

Most lawyers with half a brain won't get within a country mile of people like

this. Any who do deserve the bar complaints and lawsuits they draw when clients

like these inevitably turn their sights on their lawyer.

Respectfully,

Ben

>

> I was wondering if anyone could help me with a situation. I have a patient

that claims to have been burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an

informed consent that stated that certain complications from her visit could

include burns. The strange part about this situation is that the patient did

not tell me this at the time of her visit. In fact, our massage therapist was

the one that told her that it looked like she had a scratch on her back four

days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at that time was unaware of

the scratch. She then told me at her next visit that she was burned by the

machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she couldn't scream for me to

help her. All of these stories are not matching up at all. Now her boyfriend,

who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist that he has sued the city for a

television falling on him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me that

she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being dropped on her in a drive thru. This

makes me very worried that they are trouble makers. I advised the patient to

seek treatment from a medical doctor if she was worried. Now I just received a

call from her boyfriend who said that she was at the medical doctor and wants me

to pay for the bill. This seems pretty ridiculous. Does anyone have some

advice? I have a lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone else has

had a similar problem.

>

> Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

>

> Healthy Living Chiropractic

> 10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

> Clackamas, Oregon 97015

>

--

Ben

Attorney at Law

1205 NW 25th Avenue

Portland, OR 97210

p.

f.

e. Ben@...

w. coxlawpdx.com

July 30, 2012

Thanks everyone for your help. I have contacted NCMIC and expect a call from them tomorrow. I guess another question I have then is how do you fire a patient correctly? Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®Healthy Living Chiropractic10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204Clackamas, Oregon 97015P: F: From: Ben

Cc: "oregondcs " <oregondcs > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Trouble maker patients

Dr. Grossman, It's my considered legal opinion based on your post that it's a shame you didn't have anything on hand hot enough to "accidentally" sterilize this couple. Call your business lawyer and s/he will tell you how to make sure you're protected from these "people's" "claims." For everyone else, just the basics: be polite and professional, but refuse to continue treating patients who give you this impression. Don't interact with these people without witnesses, and do nothing orally or on paper in any way that could be seen as accepting fault if you don't believe you or your staff is at fault. Even things you write down privately (e.g. e-mail) may be discoverable in a lawsuit (even an abusive/frivolous/extortionate lawsuit), so always follow the New York Times rule. Most lawyers with half a brain won't get within a country mile of people like this. Any who do deserve the bar complaints and

lawsuits they draw when clients like these inevitably turn their sights on their lawyer. Respectfully,Ben > > I was wondering if anyone could help me with a situation. I have a patient that claims to have been burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an informed consent that stated that certain complications from her visit could include burns. The strange part about this situation is that the patient did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In fact, our massage therapist was the one that told her that it looked like she had a scratch on her back four days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at that time was unaware of the scratch. She then told me at her next visit that she was burned by the machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she couldn't scream for me to help her. All of these

stories are not matching up at all. Now her boyfriend, who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist that he has sued the city for a television falling on him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being dropped on her in a drive thru. This makes me very worried that they are trouble makers. I advised the patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if she was worried. Now I just received a call from her boyfriend who said that she was at the medical doctor and wants me to pay for the bill. This seems pretty ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar problem.> > Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®> > Healthy Living Chiropractic> 10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204> Clackamas, Oregon 97015> --Ben Attorney at Law1205 NW

25th AvenuePortland, OR 97210p. f. e. Ben@...w. coxlawpdx.com

July 30, 2012

Send them a certified mailed letter return receipt Letter explaining how you are unwilling to cont as their treating DC giving them 30 days to find a new DC, that you are willing to treat them on an emergency basis only during that time after which you

will no longer see them as a patient. Explain with the proper release you would be more than willing to sent your clinical notes to the provider of their choice....

-----

Vern Saboe, Jr, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO.

915 19th Ave SE

Albany, OR 97322

phone:

e-mail: vern@...

website: www.drvernsaboe.com

Thanks everyone for your help. I have contacted NCMIC and expect a call from them tomorrow. I guess another question I have then is how do you fire a patient correctly?

Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

Healthy Living Chiropractic

10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

Clackamas, Oregon 97015

P:

F:

To: Katanah Grossman

Cc: " oregondcs " <oregondcs >

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 4:02 PM

Subject: Re: Trouble maker patients

Dr. Grossman,

It's my considered legal opinion based on your post that it's a shame you didn't have anything on hand hot enough to " accidentally " sterilize this couple. Call your business lawyer and s/he will tell you how to make sure you're protected from these " people's "

" claims. "

For everyone else, just the basics: be polite and professional, but refuse to continue treating patients who give you this impression. Don't interact with these people without witnesses, and do nothing orally or on paper in any way that could be seen as accepting

fault if you don't believe you or your staff is at fault. Even things you write down privately (e.g. e-mail) may be discoverable in a lawsuit (even an abusive/frivolous/extortionate lawsuit), so always follow the New York Times rule.

Most lawyers with half a brain won't get within a country mile of people like this. Any who do deserve the bar complaints and lawsuits they draw when clients like these inevitably turn their sights on their lawyer.

Respectfully,

Ben

>

> I was wondering if anyone could help me with a situation. I have a patient that claims to have been burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an informed consent that stated that certain complications from her visit could include burns. The strange

part about this situation is that the patient did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In fact, our massage therapist was the one that told her that it looked like she had a scratch on her back four days after the alleged burn incident. The patient

at that time was unaware of the scratch. She then told me at her next visit that she was burned by the machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she couldn't scream for me to help her. All of these stories are not matching up at all. Now her boyfriend,

who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist that he has sued the city for a television falling on him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being dropped on her in a drive thru. This makes me very worried

that they are trouble makers. I advised the patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if she was worried. Now I just received a call from her boyfriend who said that she was at the medical doctor and wants me to pay for the bill. This seems pretty

ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar problem.

>

> Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

>

> Healthy Living Chiropractic

> 10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

> Clackamas, Oregon 97015

>

--

Ben

Attorney at Law

1205 NW 25th Avenue

Portland, OR 97210

p.

f.

e. Ben@...

w. coxlawpdx.com

July 30, 2012

Your schedule is soooooo full that you don't have any option to see

them until after NCMIC calls you back.

Ron Grice, DC

Albany, OR

On 7/30/2012 4:04 PM, Katanah Grossman

wrote:

Thanks everyone for your help. I have

contacted NCMIC and expect a call from them tomorrow.

I guess another question I have then is how do you

fire a patient correctly?

Katanah

Grossman, DC,CCSP®

Healthy Living Chiropractic

10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

Clackamas, Oregon 97015

P:

F:

From:

Ben

To:

Katanah Grossman

Cc:

"oregondcs "

Sent:

Monday, July 30, 2012 4:02 PM

Subject:

Re: Trouble maker patients

Dr. Grossman,

It's my considered legal opinion based on your post

that it's a shame you didn't have anything on hand hot

enough to "accidentally" sterilize this couple. Call

your business lawyer and s/he will tell you how to

make sure you're protected from these "people's"

"claims."

For everyone else, just the basics: be polite and

professional, but refuse to continue treating patients

who give you this impression. Don't interact with

these people without witnesses, and do nothing orally

or on paper in any way that could be seen as accepting

fault if you don't believe you or your staff is at

fault. Even things you write down privately (e.g.

e-mail) may be discoverable in a lawsuit (even an

abusive/frivolous/extortionate lawsuit), so always

follow the New York Times rule.

Most lawyers with half a brain won't get within a

country mile of people like this. Any who do deserve

the bar complaints and lawsuits they draw when clients

like these inevitably turn their sights on their

lawyer.

Respectfully,

Ben

>

> I was wondering if anyone could help me with a

situation. I have a patient that claims to have been

burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an

informed consent that stated that certain

complications from her visit could include burns. The

strange part about this situation is that the patient

did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In

fact, our massage therapist was the one that told her

that it looked like she had a scratch on her back four

days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at

that time was unaware of the scratch. She then told

me at her next visit that she was burned by the

machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she

couldn't scream for me to help her. All of these

stories are not matching up at all. Now her

boyfriend, who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist

that he has sued the city for a television falling on

him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me

that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being

dropped on her in a drive thru. This makes me very

worried that they are trouble makers. I advised the

patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if she

was worried. Now I just received a call from her

boyfriend who said that she was at the medical doctor

and wants me to pay for the bill. This seems pretty

ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a

lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone

else has had a similar problem.

>

> Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

>

> Healthy Living Chiropractic

> 10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

> Clackamas, Oregon 97015

>

--

Ben

Attorney at Law

1205 NW 25th Avenue

Portland, OR 97210

p.

f.

e. Ben@...

w. coxlawpdx.com

July 30, 2012

I would refer them immediately and refuse to see them again.

Give them 3 names and numbers of local docs and warn the docs.

Send them to me.

I’ll declare them medically stationary and refer them to one of our IME docs for a second opinion and have them do one of their time travel techniques to tell them that they never needed treatment and indeed never received treatment and they should start shopping for attire for their senior prom next spring.

--

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 23:10:25 +0000

To: Katanah Grossman

Cc: Ben , " oregondcs " <oregondcs >

Subject: Re: Trouble maker patients

Send them a certified mailed letter return receipt Letter explaining how you are unwilling to cont as their treating DC giving them 30 days to find a new DC, that you are willing to treat them on an emergency basis only during that time after which you will no longer see them as a patient. Explain with the proper release you would be more than willing to sent your clinical notes to the provider of their choice....

-----

Vern Saboe, Jr, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO.

915 19th Ave SE

Albany, OR 97322

phone:

e-mail: vern@...

website: www.drvernsaboe.com <http://www.drvernsaboe.com>

Thanks everyone for your help. I have contacted NCMIC and expect a call from them tomorrow. I guess another question I have then is how do you fire a patient correctly?

Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

Healthy Living Chiropractic

10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

Clackamas, Oregon 97015

P:

F:

To: Katanah Grossman

Cc: " oregondcs " <oregondcs >

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 4:02 PM

Subject: Re: Trouble maker patients

Dr. Grossman,

It's my considered legal opinion based on your post that it's a shame you didn't have anything on hand hot enough to " accidentally " sterilize this couple. Call your business lawyer and s/he will tell you how to make sure you're protected from these " people's " " claims. "

For everyone else, just the basics: be polite and professional, but refuse to continue treating patients who give you this impression. Don't interact with these people without witnesses, and do nothing orally or on paper in any way that could be seen as accepting fault if you don't believe you or your staff is at fault. Even things you write down privately (e.g. e-mail) may be discoverable in a lawsuit (even an abusive/frivolous/extortionate lawsuit), so always follow the New York Times rule.

Most lawyers with half a brain won't get within a country mile of people like this. Any who do deserve the bar complaints and lawsuits they draw when clients like these inevitably turn their sights on their lawyer.

Respectfully,

Ben

>

> I was wondering if anyone could help me with a situation. I have a patient that claims to have been burned by one of our IFC units. She did sign an informed consent that stated that certain complications from her visit could include burns. The strange part about this situation is that the patient did not tell me this at the time of her visit. In fact, our massage therapist was the one that told her that it looked like she had a scratch on her back four days after the alleged burn incident. The patient at that time was unaware of the scratch. She then told me at her next visit that she was burned by the machine and was in so much pain at the time, that she couldn't scream for me to help her. All of these stories are not matching up at all. Now her boyfriend, who is a patient, has told my acupuncturist that he has sued the city for a television falling on him during jury duty, and my patient is telling me that she has sued Mcdonalds for hot water being dropped on her in a drive thru. This makes me very worried that they are trouble makers. I advised the patient to seek treatment from a medical doctor if she was worried. Now I just received a call from her boyfriend who said that she was at the medical doctor and wants me to pay for the bill. This seems pretty ridiculous. Does anyone have some advice? I have a lawyer for my business but wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar problem.

>

> Katanah Grossman, DC,CCSP®

>

> Healthy Living Chiropractic

> 10001 SE Sunnyside Rd. Ste 204

> Clackamas, Oregon 97015

>

--

Ben

Attorney at Law

1205 NW 25th Avenue

Portland, OR 97210

p.

f.

e. Ben@...

w. coxlawpdx.com <http://coxlawpdx.com/>

July 30, 2012

1- Call your malpractice company, before you do anything further with these guys

(hopefully it is NCMIC). Follow their Rx exactly.

2- In future, look at what you are doing in your business that can prevent these

types of people from coming in to your practice in the first place.

3-Patient should always have a " kill switch " in their hand when using IFC, or

any form of non-attended electro-therapy...that way there is no excuse if they

are uncomfortable in any way as they need only flex their thumb 1 millimeter to

turn machine off. No yelling required.

Good luck