Re: Steam and hydro-distilled rose and jasmine

[Guest guest]

" Hi Aer - bingo!! I think you might have explained it! Thank you!

That way of looking at attar making does seem to tally with what I

understand of the process and makes perfect sense. Thanks very, very much.

Best wishes

Johanna  "

Your welcome Johanna! Motia attar or jasmine attar has been made for quite a

long time in traditional attar production. I understand your confusion and as

far as their being a steam distilled jasmine, this still confuses me as well.

White Lotus says to have some, and they are known as knowledgeable and reputable

sellers of good oils, so perhaps they do? How ? I'm not sure, but I have learned

in my studies that in the modern pursuit of natural extracts that the seemingly

impossible sometimes becomes possible. It used to be accepted and believed that

lilac would only lend her scent to enfleurage or really clever tincturing but

know there seems to be a lilac co2 out that perfumers love, other extractions of

stubborn oils have been made in a number of different mediums. While jasmine

allows his scent to be taken through solvent, tincturing and enfleurage

extractions, it has been thought to be unattainable through distillations, but

again, I think that there

are some crafty sorcerers out there that could perhaps (or already have) come

up with a way to do it. And as other have said, there are other types of

distillations that yield EO's too. Never say never as far as natural perfumery

goes

Aer

[Guest guest]

> > I think the attar process may work because its basically making a hot

enfleurage of a hydrosol with sandalwood as the oil.

Except when the liquid passes through the condenser, it is cooled, so that the

evaporate turns from steam into liquid; so it is not that hot when it reaches

it's final destination. So it would be lukewarm water dripping into a container

containing oil. And knowing oil and water don't mix...I think there is

something missing in " wikipedia " (no surprise there!) Maybe it is stirred or

something during this stage?

[Guest guest]

> > I think the attar process may work because its basically making a hot

enfleurage of a hydrosol with sandalwood as the oil.

Except when the liquid passes through the condenser, it is cooled, so that the

evaporate turns from steam into liquid; so it is not that hot when it reaches

it's final destination. So it would be lukewarm water dripping into a container

containing oil. And knowing oil and water don't mix...I think there is

something missing in " wikipedia " (no surprise there!) Maybe it is stirred or

something during this stage?

[Guest guest]

> Back to jasmine specifically then ... I guess the other part of the question

is - does the jasmine EO that is said to be distilled from the concrete exist?

Yes of course - that is very common.

> In the previous discussion on this list about it (and earlier in this one I

think) Lawless's book (as far as I know very reputable) was quoted saying

that a (rare) jasmine EO could be distilled from jasmine concrete. So then why

from the concrete - but not from the flowers themselves?

The " why " (other than the chemistry which we have covered) is physically, the

flowers are too delicate. So the EO has to be extracted using solvent

extraction.

Google " How Is Jasmine Oil Made "

" The key point to getting quality jasmine oil is to start with the gentle

picking of the blossoms. The solvent extraction method is the method most

commonly used to make jasmine oil. It is process of using a solvent to separate

out the beneficial materials in the blossom. The end result of this initial

extraction is called the " concrete " . Once you have the concrete an absolute is

then made by using alcohol, again to separate the components yet again. The next

step would be distillation which is a process that converts the volatile liquid

into a vapor and then back into a liquid, much like the distilleries used by our

ancestors, only on a much larger scale. At this point the jasmine oil is

extremely strong and actually needs to be diluted to be safe to use on the body.

There are over one hundred components in the end product of jasmine oil. This

entire process is also known as Enfleurage, which is the process of making oils

from fresh flowers. "

www (dot) organicessentialoils (dot) in/how_is (dot) html

[Guest guest]

> Back to jasmine specifically then ... I guess the other part of the question

is - does the jasmine EO that is said to be distilled from the concrete exist?

Yes of course - that is very common.

> In the previous discussion on this list about it (and earlier in this one I

think) Lawless's book (as far as I know very reputable) was quoted saying

that a (rare) jasmine EO could be distilled from jasmine concrete. So then why

from the concrete - but not from the flowers themselves?

The " why " (other than the chemistry which we have covered) is physically, the

flowers are too delicate. So the EO has to be extracted using solvent

extraction.

Google " How Is Jasmine Oil Made "

" The key point to getting quality jasmine oil is to start with the gentle

picking of the blossoms. The solvent extraction method is the method most

commonly used to make jasmine oil. It is process of using a solvent to separate

out the beneficial materials in the blossom. The end result of this initial

extraction is called the " concrete " . Once you have the concrete an absolute is

then made by using alcohol, again to separate the components yet again. The next

step would be distillation which is a process that converts the volatile liquid

into a vapor and then back into a liquid, much like the distilleries used by our

ancestors, only on a much larger scale. At this point the jasmine oil is

extremely strong and actually needs to be diluted to be safe to use on the body.

There are over one hundred components in the end product of jasmine oil. This

entire process is also known as Enfleurage, which is the process of making oils

from fresh flowers. "

www (dot) organicessentialoils (dot) in/how_is (dot) html

[Guest guest]

>

> Back to jasmine specifically then ... I guess the other part of the

> question is - does the jasmine EO that is said to be distilled from the

> concrete exist?

>

> In the previous discussion on this list about it (and earlier in this one I

> think) Lawless's book (as far as I know very reputable) was quoted

> saying that a (rare) jasmine EO could be distilled from jasmine concrete.

> So then why from the concrete - but not from the flowers themselves? (Of

> course even reputable sources can be wrong, but I wouldn't want to discount

> them before checking thoroughly.)

>

> Would this be to do with economics? Or to do with the way the flowers turn

> to mush at high temperatures (presumably not allowing steam to flow

> through?) as someone else has mentioned? I am just curious about the nitty

> gritty of all this. It frustrates me not to understand the full picture.

______________________

I for one am appreciative of the dialogue that has been going on about this

process. It is hard to wrap my head around some of this as well. I know that

you can distill " anything " and it has been all the rage for a few years, mostly

for the production of hydrosols. It would seem that obtaining eo from a concrete

may not work because all the available oils have been removed during the

chemical process of obtaining the absolute. Hydrosols on the other hand are most

definitely obtained from concrete and then maybe results in a very small quanity

of oil? I think I rememeber a distiller commenting about this awhile back.

I want to thank you all for the information that has been shared.

Ragna

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Back to jasmine specifically then ... I guess the other part of the

> question is - does the jasmine EO that is said to be distilled from the

> concrete exist?

>

> In the previous discussion on this list about it (and earlier in this one I

> think) Lawless's book (as far as I know very reputable) was quoted

> saying that a (rare) jasmine EO could be distilled from jasmine concrete.

> So then why from the concrete - but not from the flowers themselves? (Of

> course even reputable sources can be wrong, but I wouldn't want to discount

> them before checking thoroughly.)

>

> Would this be to do with economics? Or to do with the way the flowers turn

> to mush at high temperatures (presumably not allowing steam to flow

> through?) as someone else has mentioned? I am just curious about the nitty

> gritty of all this. It frustrates me not to understand the full picture.

______________________

I for one am appreciative of the dialogue that has been going on about this

process. It is hard to wrap my head around some of this as well. I know that

you can distill " anything " and it has been all the rage for a few years, mostly

for the production of hydrosols. It would seem that obtaining eo from a concrete

may not work because all the available oils have been removed during the

chemical process of obtaining the absolute. Hydrosols on the other hand are most

definitely obtained from concrete and then maybe results in a very small quanity

of oil? I think I rememeber a distiller commenting about this awhile back.

I want to thank you all for the information that has been shared.

Ragna

>

[Guest guest]

> **

>

>

> > > I think the attar process may work because its basically making a hot

> enfleurage of a hydrosol with sandalwood as the oil.

>

> Except when the liquid passes through the condenser, it is cooled, so that

> the evaporate turns from steam into liquid; so it is not that hot when it

> reaches it's final destination. So it would be lukewarm water dripping into

> a container containing oil. And knowing oil and water don't mix...I think

> there is something missing in " wikipedia " (no surprise there!) Maybe it is

> stirred or something during this stage?

>

>

>

As I mentioned in a previous email I *think* that there may be no actual

condenser in an attar still, but that the two vessels are joined

differently. Nonetheless, as you say, it's easy to imagine that there would

be some condensation no matter how they were joined.

[Guest guest]

> **

> I think there is something missing in " wikipedia " (no surprise there!)

>

Aha! This is the link I've been looking for. It's the clearest description

of the attar-making process I've found online (and a beautiful article

too). Note that McMahon is from the highly reputable White Lotus, who

have in the past stocked a lot of good attars, and are now the ones who

stock the jasmine EO.

http://bio-byte.com/articles/MakePerfume_04.shtml

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:47 AM, divinelifeperfume wrote:

> **

>

> I for one am appreciative of the dialogue that has been going on about

> this process. It is hard to wrap my head around some of this as well. I

> know that you can distill " anything " and it has been all the rage for a few

> years, mostly for the production of hydrosols. It would seem that obtaining

> eo from a concrete may not work because all the available oils have been

> removed during the chemical process of obtaining the absolute. Hydrosols on

> the other hand are most definitely obtained from concrete and then maybe

> results in a very small quanity of oil? I think I rememeber a distiller

> commenting about this awhile back.

> I want to thank you all for the information that has been shared.

>

Hi Ragna and all

What we need is a group trip to India to see traditional methods - and

modern adaptations - first hand!

[Guest guest]

" > > I think the attar process may work because its basically making a hot

enfleurage of a hydrosol with sandalwood as the oil.

Except when the liquid passes through the condenser, it is cooled, so that the

evaporate turns from steam into liquid; so it is not that hot when it reaches

it's final destination. So it would be lukewarm water dripping into a container

containing oil. And knowing oil and water don't mix...I think there is something

missing in " wikipedia " (no surprise there!) Maybe it is stirred or something

during this stage? "

Oil doesn't have to mix with water in order for them to come into contact.

When you make an enfleurage, the fat and scent material don't actually have to

come into contact, the volitile materials that make the scent, the actual same

molecules that are picked up by your nose in order for you to smell anything,

are absorbed into the fat. So the scent from the water is absorbed into the

sandalwood oil, which acts like any other carrier when making an enfleurage.

From the diagrams I've seen on how attars are made, I don't believe there is a

condenser in the same sense as with other distillation methods but I do believe

that the pipe between the two vessels is cooled slightly. The water can condense

back but that doesn't mean it will be cold, and even if it were it would still

work with the same principal.

Aer

[Guest guest]

>

> As I mentioned in a previous email I *think* that there may be no actual

> condenser in an attar still, but that the two vessels are joined

> differently. Nonetheless, as you say, it's easy to imagine that there would

> be some condensation no matter how they were joined.

>

That said, reading this article, I see that the bamboo tube is pretty long

and must act as a condenser - so yes, I guess there must be a separation

process after the attar distillation - just like when EOs are separated

from hysdrosols after distillation.

J

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Aer wrote:

> **

>

> When you make an enfleurage, the fat and scent material don't actually

> have to come into contact, the volitile materials that make the scent, the

> actual same molecules that are picked up by your nose in order for you to

> smell anything, are absorbed into the fat. So the scent from the water is

> absorbed into the sandalwood oil, which acts like any other carrier when

> making an enfleurage. From the diagrams I've seen on how attars are made, I

> don't believe there is a condenser in the same sense as with

> other distillation methods but I do believe that the pipe between the two

> vessels is cooled slightly. The water can condense back but that doesn't

> mean it will be cold, and even if it were it would still work with the same

> principal.

>

Hmm ... I'm really needing that field trip to India now!!

Best wishes

Johanna

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Aer wrote:

>

>> **

>> From the diagrams I've seen on how attars are made, I don't believe there

>> is a condenser in the same sense as with other distillation methods but I

>> do believe that the pipe between the two vessels is cooled slightly. The

>> water can condense back but that doesn't mean it will be cold, and even if

>> it were it would still work with the same principal.

>>

>

>

So are you saying that the bamboo pipes basically pipe more steam than

actual condensate into the receiving vessel? (As you say, the vapours

swirling round the oil make a lot of sense, especially if it's a very long

process.)

Would the attar makers then just separate out any waters that had got into

the end product?

[Guest guest]

> Aha! This is the link I've been looking for. It's the clearest description of

the attar-making process I've found online (and a beautiful article too). Note

that McMahon is from the highly reputable White Lotus, who have in the

past stocked a lot of good attars, and are now the ones who stock the jasmine

EO.

Lovely site!

" Attars are original perfumes, created in a distillation process. The product of

the distillation is the finished perfume. "

" Heat, friend and enemy, continues to be impractical for extracting the aroma of

several very delicate flowers which happen to be among those most prized for

perfumery. This leads us to an extraction technique called enfleurage. "

So...is a friend to many within the perfume community - why doesn't

someone ask him how he is able to sell a product the rest of the industry

believes - and teaches - cannot exist? Sue

[Guest guest]

> **

>

> So...is a friend to many within the perfume community - why doesn't

> someone ask him how he is able to sell a product the rest of the industry

> believes - and teaches - cannot exist? Sue

>

>

Done! Although I'm not sure I'll get a reply. I have bugged White Lotus

with questions many times and I wouldn't blame them if they were sick of

me! But I will wait and see ...

[Guest guest]

>

> > Yes - my point was that if you can distill jasmine flowers so that the

volatile oils are absorbed by sandalwood in a receiving vessel, then surely you

can distill them to create an oil without the sandalwood oil in the receiver.

>

> OK...that is what I understood you to be saying. The problem is your logic is

not correct. Your analogy is almost like saying; I boil chicken to make chicken

soup - and I can smell the chicken simmering away so there are " aroma chemicals "

produced by cooking chicken - so that must mean I can distill chicken and create

an essential oil of chicken. You are not factoring in chemistry. A

distillation needs to run at a certain temperature and for a specific length of

time in order for the complete profile of chemical constituents to be recovered

from the plant material and result in a complete essential oil. Just distilling

for the alcohols for example, would not result in an essential oil. It would

just produce alcohols which would evaporate off before they can be " saved " .

Distilling " into " a container that contains oil instead of just an empty

receivor for the essential oil, means that some of the most volatile chemicals

can be 'trapped'. But the result is not a complete chemical profile of jasmine

EO and oil...it's simply a different product. And just like the chemicals in

chamomile tea are different from chamomile EO - the chemicals in a jasmine attar

are not the same as the chemicals in a solvent extracted jasmine absolute...and

why there is no such thing as a true jasmine essential oil. Sue

>

actually that is not the case, jasmine flowers can and have been hydro distilled

for many many years, yielding a very exquisite essential oil.

it was done in India, rather than an attar, they named these hydro distilled

oils as ruhs.

ruh motia is one such ruh, it is a hydro distilled jasmine sambac.

it may not be made now, or at least if it is, it is not in the US markets.

in fact whitelotus sold a number of the hydro distilled florals.

http://www.whitelotusblog.com/2010/07/ruh-motiajasminum-sambactraditional.html

[Guest guest]

> http://bio-byte.com/articles/MakePerfume_04.shtml

Good article.

The 'deg' is the 'key' base. Question, how do we know that 'synthetics' are not

in the 'deg'?

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

>

> actually that is not the case, jasmine flowers can and have been hydro

> distilled for many many years, yielding a very exquisite essential oil.

> it was done in India, rather than an attar, they named these hydro

> distilled oils as ruhs.

> ruh motia is one such ruh, it is a hydro distilled jasmine sambac.

>

> it may not be made now, or at least if it is, it is not in the US markets.

>

> in fact whitelotus sold a number of the hydro distilled florals.

>

> http://www.whitelotusblog.com/2010/07/ruh-motiajasminum-sambactraditional.html

>

Hi Luigi - thanks a lot! That is excellent info and a very informative link.

I took a quick look in Jeanne Rose's '375 Essential Oils and Hydrosols' and

note that she says the yield of EO from jasmine is very small. And after a

little further reading it makes sense to me that it is possible with some

very careful and particular and/or expensive processes to produce some EO

from jasmine (including but not restricted to distilling from the

concrete). But I should think that in many countries and for many people it

would not be economically viable these days.

I am probably going to bow out of this discussion at this point, but I've

found it very helpful for clarifying my understanding of quite a number of

things. Many thanks again to all who have been posting.

Best

Johanna

[Guest guest]

> **

>

>

> > http://bio-byte.com/articles/MakePerfume_04.shtml

>

> Good article.

>

> The 'deg' is the 'key' base. Question, how do we know that 'synthetics'

> are not in the 'deg'?

> __.==

>

Hi - I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 'key' base? The

sandalwood base is in the bhapka part - and I suspect it's often relatively

easy to detect if there is a lot of paraffin and DOP in it. But I think

I've misunderstood what you mean?

Johanna

(Who really will relinquish this conversation soon!

[Guest guest]

> I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 'key' base? The sandalwood base

is in the bhapka part - and I suspect it's often relatively easy to detect

if there is a lot of paraffin and DOP in it. But I think I've misunderstood

what you mean?

In perfumery, as in food preparation, there may be a secret blend of materials

added to the process to give it a unique proprietary note. Often these are

extenders to ingredient already present. In perfumery, this is hard to detect by

physical means, but easy to notice olfactorily.

In food, that would be the spices, herbs, or extracts and the way they are

mixed/added to the final plate.

[Guest guest]

> easy to detect if there is a lot of paraffin and DOP in it.

DOP ?? Dioctyl phthalate ??

[Guest guest]

> And after a little further reading it makes sense to me that it is possible

with some very careful and particular and/or expensive processes to produce some

EO from jasmine (including but not restricted to distilling from the concrete).<

No one here ever challenged distilling from the concrete - that's a common

practice.

What we challenged was your conclusion that if you can distill other flowers

" logically " you can distill jasmine and get an essential oil.

Most of us have been taught that a company claiming to sell steam distilled

jasmine essential oil is not being truthful because the flowers are far to

delicate to survive the distillation process before being destroyed by the heat

before any essential oil can be recovered by the process.

I hope no one comes away from this discussion thinking distilling from the

concrete was ever in question!

[Guest guest]

> > The 'deg' is the 'key' base. Question, how do we know that 'synthetics'

> > are not in the 'deg'?

> > __.==

> >

>

>

> Hi - I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 'key' base? The sandalwood

base is in the bhapka part - and I suspect it's often relatively easy to detect

if there is a lot of paraffin and DOP in it.

Do you run a GSMS on your perfume ingredients before you formulate with them? " A

lot " of paraffin and DOP - if you want to work with naturals then quantity is

not a deciding factor - ANY synthetics would make this an unacceptable

ingredient. Can you smell paraffin? No...it is odorless. I assume DOP is as

well...or would not be of sufficient odor that it would be " easy to detect "

since it's not there to add to the odor.

If you read the article I posted, it says " Whereas purity and consistency are

the virtues in the production of essential oils, the attar maker strives for

originality. While, in the production of essential oils, the natural material

from which the oil is to be extracted will be as unitary as possible —

everything from one single natural material — the materials in the attar maker's

" deg " will be ... a closely guarded secret! "

So the secret base plus whatever botanical they are adding and naming it with as

a result (ex. Jasmine Attar) has some unknown base of ingredients plus (we hope)

jasmine. And not knowing the " secret " matters if you want to formulate with only

naturals or by actually knowing what you are formulating with!

[Guest guest]

>

> > easy to detect if there is a lot of paraffin and DOP in it.

>

> DOP ?? Dioctyl phthalate ??

>

Yes - if you go way way back to where this thread started, one website listed

exposed the fact that their ingredients which they distilled into sandlewood oil

were " jasmine, Di-octyl phthalate (their spelling) and paraffin. Sue