Did anyone hear this on the Today Show this morning???

[Guest guest]

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing. ly I don't trust anything that the

organizations who are against vaccines say because..oh irony of ironies...the

agenda being pushed is so couched in half truths and untruths that I can't

believe a thing they say. And that's where I hear these accusations out of

context.

What I AM SAYING,

is that your heros do exactly the same thing. Only worse. Merck didn't intend

for infants to die. I know that rotavirus kills many MORE infants (even here in

the US). I know that great grand antivaccine heros fail the conflict of interest

test pretty hardcore.

>

> Subject: Re: Did anyone hear this on the Today Show this

morning???

> To: Autism_in_Girls

> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:48 PM

> Again, Kassi, I never said anything about anyone threatening

> anyone.

> Take that up with those who did it (maybe that's your

> intent but

> you're replying to my messages so I'm assuming you

> are addressing me,

> I apologize if you are not), I was commenting in regards to

> the

> communist under every bed response, which was done in

> response to

> cathy's comment about offit & snyderman.

>

> I wasn't talking about Kirby, I was talking about

> offit &

> snyderman. Do you disagree that offit's rotavirus

> vaccines killed any

> infants or that snyderman provides false information and

> does not

> disclose her payments from pharmaceutical industry? That is

> the topic

> I mentioned, either you agree or disagree which is fine,

> but it's not

> a topic about any other people but them that I am

> responding to.

>

> Debi

[Guest guest]

>

" Many parents of autistic children are angry

> that the media and Congress rarely talk about autism without blaming

> vaccines. "

I actually completely agree with this. I wish more focus would be put

on other possible causes, or research into treatments, or identifying

at risk kids...the vaccine debate overshadows everything and ends up

just creating a huge fight, filled with emotion on both sides and

getting us nowhere.

" And although I am certainly a target of some parents'

> anger, I simply represent the other side. A special kind of venom is

> reserved for parents of autistic children who don't believe that

> vaccines are at fault and actively, vigorously, and relentlessly

> oppose those who do. "

This is true too. I know parents on both sides, and instead of being

willing to admit maybe they're BOTH right, and sometimes autism is

triggered by vaccines and sometimes it isn't, and work toward the

common goal of helping their kids function in life, they fight and

pointlessly waste a lot of energy.

And what good does threatening anyone ever do? All it does is make the

parents blaming the vaccines look crazy and irrational. Violence is

never the right way to get anything accomplished. No one who is making

threats or causing big emotional scenes will ever be taken seriously.

And that is one reason that the pro-vaccine people always have more

power, really. They're not overly emotional about the issue. And of

course, parents are. And that's to be expected...but if you want to be

heard, you usually have to speak softly.

Amnesty

[Guest guest]

>

> ly I don't trust anything that the organizations who are

against vaccines say because..oh irony of ironies...the agenda being

pushed is so couched in half truths and untruths that I can't believe

a thing they say. And that's where I hear these accusations out of

context.

> I know that great grand antivaccine heros fail the conflict of

interest test pretty hardcore.

>

>

>

Yep. I completely agree. I really wish there was a way to get people

to work together on these issues instead of just taking sides. A lot

more progress would get made. Some one mentioned how much more

" awareness " get given to breast cancer and muscular dystrophy. You'll

notice there's not a lot of controversy associated with either of

those. Fighting makes people look irrational, until you're either a

crazy, non-vaccinating hippie, or a pyscho, vaccine-pushing Nazi. That

just doesn't do anyone any good, on either side.

I had a parent tell me recently that she took her child to a DAN!

doctor and then to a neurologist. The DAN! dr warned her about the

evils of the horrible traditional medical field, and the neurologist

warned her about the dangers of " unproven " DAN! protocols. Where does

that leave this poor mom? She's afraid of both sides now, and

basically not pursuing either option. If those doctors could have

worked together, they probably could have come up with some helpful

treatment options!

It is my belief that this gap between the traditional medical field

and the biomedical autism interventions is the main reason that

progress towards identifying causes and treatments is moving so

slowly. But, I'm not in the medical or research field, so all I can do

is keep doing the best I can to help the kids that need help now, no

matter what caused them to need it in the first place.

Amnesty

[Guest guest]

I think there are parents who are in the middle, scratch that, I KNOW there

are parents who are in the middle of the vaccine or not vaccine debate, and

not all are just saying that they will not vaccinate or that they will

blindly vaccinate.

I know there has to be some out there that are carefully considering the

options and are maybe choosing to vaccinate on a different schedule, and

possibly avoid just certain vaccines. These parents are not saying ALL

vaccines are evil and going to harm their children, they are just trying to

take extra precautions (that the medical field really ought to be the ones

taking) to help avoid any injury or further injury to their child.

Based on some of the doctors I've spoken with and seen on TV, there are dr's

that are willing to work with parents in finding a happy medium.

Our family dr. has tried to encourage us to get the HPV Vaccine, but I never

did feel it was tested long enough and we're not close to needing it's

protection, so I've choosen to wait a bit on that.

He was also more than willing to test my younger daughter's titers to see if

she actually needed to get another MMR shot that would normally be just

given. And thankfully she showed as being immune from the first round (which

DID make her sick w/fever and a seizure) and we don't have to make a choice

between protecting her from further injury or the measles...

I think part of the biggest problem with this vaccine issue is that when you

have a population of billions of people there are bound to be a small

percentage that has adverse reactions to it (like any other medication, food

or substance) the reaction is going to vary from person to person....

unfortunately death is the worst possible reaction and to that person who

looses their child, I can definately see how they can say that this is just

not worth the risk, cause to them, no matter how small the percent... they

are that percent and it's real....

But at the same time the damage that is prevented to hundreds of thousands

more from the vaccine, makes having that vaccine worth it to them.

Did anyone see The Doctors the other day? They were talking the vaccine

debate as well.

I find myself seeing both sides and think of myself as somewhere in the

middle. I think they are needed, but I think it should not be a " one size

fits all " approach.... A 5lb premiee shouldn't get the same dose as a 10lb

infant. They should be spread out so as to not be giving as many as 4 or 5

shots at one time... the only benefit here is to have less visits to the

office and do it all at once. Personally I'd rather come in once every month

or two weeks till it's all done and only get one shot at a time.

I do think some children got their Autism from their vaccines, it seems to

coincindental for it to not be what caused it.... but it is also very

obvious that it is not the vaccines alone that cause the autism. There must

be something else to it because even children from the same family can have

the vaccines and NOT get autism, or NOT get vaccines and STILL get autism.

Just like there is not just one factor in getting heart disese, I don't

think there is any ONE factor in getting autism either.

Theresa

>

>

> >

> > ly I don't trust anything that the organizations who are

> against vaccines say because..oh irony of ironies...the agenda being

> pushed is so couched in half truths and untruths that I can't believe

> a thing they say. And that's where I hear these accusations out of

> context.

>

> > I know that great grand antivaccine heros fail the conflict of

> interest test pretty hardcore.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yep. I completely agree. I really wish there was a way to get people

> to work together on these issues instead of just taking sides. A lot

> more progress would get made. Some one mentioned how much more

> " awareness " get given to breast cancer and muscular dystrophy. You'll

> notice there's not a lot of controversy associated with either of

> those. Fighting makes people look irrational, until you're either a

> crazy, non-vaccinating hippie, or a pyscho, vaccine-pushing Nazi. That

> just doesn't do anyone any good, on either side.

> I had a parent tell me recently that she took her child to a DAN!

> doctor and then to a neurologist. The DAN! dr warned her about the

> evils of the horrible traditional medical field, and the neurologist

> warned her about the dangers of " unproven " DAN! protocols. Where does

> that leave this poor mom? She's afraid of both sides now, and

> basically not pursuing either option. If those doctors could have

> worked together, they probably could have come up with some helpful

> treatment options!

> It is my belief that this gap between the traditional medical field

> and the biomedical autism interventions is the main reason that

> progress towards identifying causes and treatments is moving so

> slowly. But, I'm not in the medical or research field, so all I can do

> is keep doing the best I can to help the kids that need help now, no

> matter what caused them to need it in the first place.

> Amnesty

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes....I recently lost a friend to breast cancer.   She had always been very

much a " natural girl " - health conscious - avoided doctors all her life in favor

of holistic healing - but she DID see doctors when holistic methods did not

work.    She fought with family members who ranted at her to stop trusting her

medical doctors so much.  She fought with others who thought she was crazy

clinging to her beliefs about avoiding as much meds as possible, avoiding

certain foods thought to encourage her cancer growth......

 

My point....I thought it TRAGIC that there she was...trying to heal and trying

to remain open minded to find the best treatment possible for herself, and she

had to fight friends and family - which only caused additional stress for her -

which HURT her healing.   She used to call me crying saying she was doing the

best she could and she wished everyone would stop questioning her and just

support her decisions instead.

 

since the day she died..I have wondered about the difference it might have made

in her healing had everyone done as she wished.   Maybe it would not have made a

difference in the time of her death...but at the very least - it sure would have

made her last year a whole lot happier !

 

Seems like the same thing with these debates about taking care of our

children.   ....just think of the strides that could be made if we put our heads

together and supported each other individually.

 

I guess I look at it like Dr. Phil often states on his tv show when he is

confronted by someone who is not able to solve  a problem.  He asks them to

describe their approach to solving it- and then asks them " How's that working

for you ? " .....so...if a solution we are trying is working for OUR

children...then it's a good option for US.  Maybe not someone else -but

it's  " workin' for me " !   If you are using a different strategy than me -

then that is a good option for you ....  

 

When it comes to all the judgement being thrown around by one group to another

....moms who vaccine....moms and dads who don't....DAN doctor followers against

neurology...behavorists vs those who like themselves fine just how they are

.......my question is:   " How are the judgements working out for you ? " -

honestly.....the judgements are not helping to support anyone or help those

parents who genuinely feel their children are being hurt.  Making judgements

against those doing what is best for them - only adds negativity to the mix

along with anger and defensivenes...and none of those helps our children at all.

......cynthia 

Yep. I completely agree. I really wish there was a way to get people

to work together on these issues instead of just taking sides. A lot

more progress would get made. Some one mentioned how much more

" awareness " get given to breast cancer and muscular dystrophy.

[Guest guest]

You certainly have a right to your opinion. I know you will believe

that pretty much regardless of what I say so I don't even see the need

to argue with you about it, other than those who speak out about

vaccines (in the medical realm) have far more to lose than to gain.

And, I believe you are blinded by the huge lies that are made by

people like autism diva, but you won't agree with me and I certainly

won't agree with you.

I do stand by my statements that offit's vaccines have killed babies

and snyderman has conflicts she does not disclose.

Debi

[Guest guest]

My pharm professor is a VERY learned woman. She was the first PhD

graduate in nursing from her alma mater. She told us she was a 3 time

cancer survivor, once in the '70's, then again a couple decades later,

most recent a couple yrs ago. Well, she had a skin cancer come up on

her leg in '06, they felt they would likely have to remove her entire

thigh muscle to cure her. She laughed in class & said, " I cured it

with poke root juice. " She took the juice & put it on her cancerous

lesion 3 times a day, she said it shriveled up & came out in a

3-pronged root. When she saw the surgeon he blasted her that a woman

with her sort of credentials would resort to something so silly.

It worked, nuff said!

As she told the story, another woman in class spoke up & said her

grandmother took a monthly poke juice dose & lived to be 108.

Obviously it's not as clear whether that was what led to her

grandmother's longevity, but it is weed for thought!

I'm gonna go dig me up some poke & make me a salve for my psoriasis!

Debi

PS, anyone reading this, please consider the danger, poke is poisonous!!!

[Guest guest]

> I do think some children got their Autism from their vaccines, it

> seems to coincindental for it to not be what caused it.... but it

> is also very obvious that it is not the vaccines alone that cause

> the autism. There must be something else to it because even

> children from the same family can have the vaccines and NOT get

> autism, or NOT get vaccines and STILL get autism.

>

Well, there is that girl, Hannah Poling, who has a rare mitochondrial

issue that caused an adverse reaction to vaccines.

Another point is that just because a child is at risk for a bad

reaction to being vaccinated does not necessarily mean they should

not be vaccinated. In fact, the current recommendation for kids like

Hannah Poling is to get them vaccinated, because they'd have a much

more severe reaction to the actual illness, and if you know they have

this condition (Hannah Poling hadn't been diagnosed with it yet) you

can take preventative measures. I think from what I was reading, the

big problem for mitochondrial disorders is with fasting, and many

little kids don't want to eat when they have a fever, which is a

common effect of vaccines. So had they known Hannah Poling had a

mitochondrial disorder, they could have just made sure she ate well

regardless of her fever, and it would have been fine. Other kids with

other issues may not be vaccinated, such as kids with AIDS (it

wouldn't do any good for them and a live vaccine would make them

seriously ill).

As long as the unvaccinated kids are a small proportion of the

population, there won't be any epidemic (I think you need something

like 80% immune, and the non-immune include pre-vaccine-age kids,

people who were vaccinated but didn't respond well enough, etc as

well as unvaccinated people).

Basically, I think it shouldn't be a knee-jerk 'don't vaccinate or

your kid will have X, Y or Z', but if parents are concerned they can

ask the doctors to test for some conditions that put the kid at risk

for an adverse vaccine reaction, and manage those risks.

The biggest problem I have is with how many of the 'vaccines cause

autism' camp refer to autistic people. I've even heard phrases

like 'walking biohazard' applied to autistic kids. And even if

they're not using language as offensive as that, very often they

portray life with autism as unremmittingly extremely awful, and

that's just not true. We can have joy, we can relate to others, etc,

but that's not really recognized. (Note: not directing this at anyone

in particular, this is just a pattern I've seen.)

Ettina

[Guest guest]

My daughter's swim coach is a paraplegic. She's among the top ranked

hand cyclists in the nation. She's an avid sports athlete, college

graduate, wife, mom. She uses a wheelchair. In promoting spinal cord

research it in no way, shape, or form equates her to being less than

human, in fact, it raises her by saying her life is so valuable we

want to devote more resources to improving the lives of people like her.

Saying research should not be done cheapens her life, promotes the

ideal that people like her are second-class citizens, and all that she

has worked to overcome is not important.

So too is the thought that MD, autism, all these other pathological

conditions do not warrant research, it cheapens the lives of those

with the conditions.

Pity is human nature in response to pathological conditions. Pity does

not cheapen the value of a person, it adds to it and makes those who

feel it better humans. Pity leads to compassion which leads to helping

fellow humans.

Those refusing jobs, housing, etc to those with disabilities of any

kind are the opposite of pity, they are anti-pity.

Therefore, pity is not to be shamed, it should be encouraged. It's

part of what make us better humans. If it weren't for pity, I'd have 5

starving cats. Pitying their meows is what is making me get up from my

computer and feed the blamed things.

Debi

[Guest guest]

And we're back to defining autism and perspective taking again. (it's

that circular debate again.) *smile*

When a parent watches a child regress into what is

labeled/diagnosed/observed on the outside as " autism " , that parent very

often does not know ANY autistic adults or teens like you, Ettina, who

can offer the insight that you do. All we know is that it LOOKS awful

from our side, and that when we begin to treat the medical issues, the

stuff that we observe from the outside (and with labwork) CHANGES for

the BETTER. We don't know that the Ettinas of the world are defining

" autism " differently.

If you found out that you have celiac sprue and had to give up gluten

for your health, and going gluten free created big changes in how you

feel and relate to the world, would you say that took away some of your

autism? (just curious)

Penny

> The biggest problem I have is with how many of the 'vaccines cause

> autism' camp refer to autistic people. I've even heard phrases

> like 'walking biohazard' applied to autistic kids. And even if

> they're not using language as offensive as that, very often they

> portray life with autism as unremmittingly extremely awful, and

> that's just not true. We can have joy, we can relate to others, etc,

> but that's not really recognized. (Note: not directing this at anyone

> in particular, this is just a pattern I've seen.)

> Ettina

>

[Guest guest]

Debi,

What the heck is poke root??!!

I'm gonna go google it...

>

> My pharm professor is a VERY learned woman. She was the first PhD

> graduate in nursing from her alma mater. She told us she was a 3

time

> cancer survivor, once in the '70's, then again a couple decades

later,

> most recent a couple yrs ago. Well, she had a skin cancer come up on

> her leg in '06, they felt they would likely have to remove her

entire

> thigh muscle to cure her. She laughed in class & said, " I cured it

> with poke root juice. " She took the juice & put it on her cancerous

> lesion 3 times a day, she said it shriveled up & came out in a

> 3-pronged root. When she saw the surgeon he blasted her that a woman

> with her sort of credentials would resort to something so silly.

>

> It worked, nuff said!

>

> As she told the story, another woman in class spoke up & said her

> grandmother took a monthly poke juice dose & lived to be 108.

> Obviously it's not as clear whether that was what led to her

> grandmother's longevity, but it is weed for thought!

>

> I'm gonna go dig me up some poke & make me a salve for my psoriasis!

>

> Debi

>

> PS, anyone reading this, please consider the danger, poke is

poisonous!!!

>

[Guest guest]

It's a weed down here in the Southeast. I don't know what other parts

of the country/word it may grow in. My MIL told me about how when they

were poor they would make poke salad, or " poke sallit. " The thing is,

you have to boil it & dump water at least 3 times because it's

poisonous. It was so funny, someone asked my professor why eat it if

it's so dangerous, there's turnip greens, mustard greens, etc. Prof

said, " 'Cause it tastes good with vinegar. " Lol. She was speaking from

the perspective of old Southerners, they ate it during the depression

to keep from starving. Most young people won't touch it. Evidently it

was heavily used by Native Americans.

Debi

-

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I know there has to be some out there that are carefully considering the

> options and are maybe choosing to vaccinate on a different schedule, and

> possibly avoid just certain vaccines. These parents are not saying ALL

> vaccines are evil and going to harm their children, they are just

trying to

> take extra precautions (that the medical field really ought to be

the ones

> taking) to help avoid any injury or further injury to their child.

>

>

Yep. I'm one of those parents. My 5 year old is almost all caught up

on his vaccines now, but my 2 year old has had 3, and my 4 month old

has had none. They'll get them eventually. Well, we don't have health

insurance now, so that plays a part. And all of my kids have multiple

food allergies, so that factors in to my decisions on which vaccines

when (my infant is allergic to eggs through breastmilk, so there are a

few vaccines he will NEVER get, unless he outgrows the allergy).

But, I'm also...well, " outspoken " is a nice way to put it, lol. I

don't feel uncomfortable or intimidated by doctors. Our first

pediatrician threatened to kick us out of her practice unless we

vaccinated on schedule, so I just said, " then give me his records now "

and we never went back. I know not all parents will do that. Heck, the

reason I like our current ped so much is that he listens to me and

doesn't argue, because he knows that I know my kids best.

Amnesty