Written transcript of Senator and Jeff & Chris

[Guest guest]

Senate Committee on Education

August 18, 2008

At about 2 hours 54 minutes into the testimony

Senator Dan with

, JD, Policy Specialist from Advocacy, Inc., and

Borreca, JD, Bracewell & Giuliani, Texas Council of

Administrators of Special Education (aka TCASE) at about 2 hours 54

minutes into the testimony

Senator : I come from this, I think, from the viewpoint of

Senator , and I think others on our panel, that there are

lives at stake here, and just for me personally, I don't want to

speak for anyone else, we've spent an inordinate amount of time

taking about rules, regulations and laws. I'm not anti-lawyer, but

it sounds like we are forgetting about the children and the families

and I want a…you mentioned, that there are 500,000 in your

testimony, in our school system now under special education.

Chris: (Responds to question but it's hard to make out)

Senator : Approximately.

Chris: Right.

Senator : And 326 have, at some point, had an issue with the

school districts have had their children ___ being handled. Correct?

Chris: I think it is..3..yes..

Senator : Three hundred and whatever.

Chris: (Basically agreeing it sounds like but they are talking on

top of each other)

Senator : And 26 or so actually went to court.

Chris: 45

Senator : 45 went to court. So that means basically 99% did

not get to this point, and I think we're spending our time worrying

about that 300 and forgetting about the other 499,000 and odd

numbers. I want a CLEAR answer from both of you on WHY? When a

parent comes to the school and is unhappy, and because apparently

this is a small number, they simply, as Senator said, simply

cannot be handed a check and have the right to go somewhere else. I

want a CLEAR answer on why the two of you think that that is a BAD

IDEA.

Chris: (Stumbling): I guess…it's…it's…it's an easy solution to a

complex problem and one that is not entirely unworkable, I don't

think, but I think it is going to require more to it. One would be,

before…before taxpayer dollars are spent on something like that, I

think there would be a question of accountability, at least the

school district that's spending ITS money on ITS program has that

responsibility and that accountability and that legal liability for

providing an appropriate program.

Senator : What's wrong with an easy answer to a complex

solution?

Chris: (Laughing for a few seconds). I-I think an easy answer

sometimes doesn't answer the, all of the complexity.

Senator : But if the PARENT believes that. If the PARENT

believes that. In any other aspect of life, if a parent is not

satisfied with the service they are getting, wherever it may be.

Chris: Um-hm.

Senator : They don't have to sit there and go to court over

the person saying, " I'm not going to let you go as a customer. " I'm

just not going to let you go as a customer. The parent simply

says, " I'm not satisfied with this service for my child…

Chris: Um-hm…

Senator : or for myself, but we're talking about children

here, and they simply go somewhere else, that they believe will

provide a better service. Why SHOULD, in this situation, and I would

argue that…that parents with special needs children um have ah

additional burdens and challenges…

Chris: Um-hm…

Senator : …that others do not, and if they believe in THEIR

heart that an alternative option, a private school, is a better

option, why should they not be able to go.

Chris: It's…it's…it's..(grasping for different word beginnings here)

I guess once again, ah, you know, I could analogize it to…to the work

that we do at…at the Center, um, which I know you're familiar

with..ah..ah. I remember ah borrowing your, ah, talents, ah, when I

was education director there, and you were working down the road from

us. W-w-why are those parents told that they cannot have their child

in a facility like Cullen Residential Hall because it has too many

people, ah, for it to fit the, ah, the, the, Medicaid regulations,

eh, eh, there were, eh, that to me, those are, those are issues that

don't make much sense.

Senator : Well there is never a perfect answer, as Senator

Zaffirini said, we're not always going to be able to address every

issue in a rural area, or maybe some poor areas, but there are…there

are situations where parents do have a viable option. I have an

employee with me who has an autistic child…he's been with me for 12

years. Public school after public school FAILED that child to the

point where they were ready to give up on the child. Similar stories

that Senator was saying about the teachers didn't think

there was a problem. Not until that parent, my employee, took that

child and spent close to $12,000 a year out of his own pocket to put

that child in a private school, did that child have AMAZING results.

AMAZING RESULTS!!

Chris: Um-hm…

Senator : So I don't understand why you, who have a great

background in caring for these children, would want to put up a wall

to stop parents from having a choice, and…and this argument about

school funding dollars. Those dollars are taxpayer dollars, too.

Those parents are taxpayers, too. So…so again. Give me a clear

answer why…why we can't have an easy solution to a complex problem

when a parent comes to a school and says, " Look, we just choose to

agree to disagree, and I'm taking my child out and letting that money

flow through…follow them. " Tell me why.

Chris: I don't know that that's necessarily was the result. I don't

know that that money…(grasping again for word sounds)…at least under

previous proposals actually flowed through and that there wasn't

actually a cost back to the school district, ah, that…that otherwise

wouldn't have been borne. Ah, I have a hard time understand, ah, I

guess from, as a lawyer, the standpoint of a school is not

responsible for…and again I apologize..I'm just simply talking like a

lawyer here, and I'm reading from ah…I'm reading from my memory of ah

federal law. And the state law which says that a public school

district does not, is not responsible and cannot pay for a private

school, ah, unless the public school has, ah, is…is inable, is unable

to provide that program, and I think it's in that deposition, and

that goes back to my very first point, of the ambiguity, ah, and the

difference of opinion between can you provide and can you cannot

provide….

Senator : Let's back off the law for a second.

Chris: Right.

Senator : Let's assume this legislature, and like Senator

, I co-authored with Shapiro, the bill on…for children of

autism to have these options. Let's assume we PASS that and fix it.

Do you have any objection to this legislature giving parents the

right to take a voucher and say to a school, " You know, I--I really

have a better option and I'm going to pursue that option. " Do you

have any objection?

Chris: Are you asking me personally?

Senator : Personally and representing your group.

Chris: I think our GROUP, I think our GROUP has, has long

considered, along with other groups, the issues of vouchers and its

effect on the remainder of the kids who remain back in the public

school, and I think that has been generally the concern that has been

voiced has been, ah, ah, from a 30,000 foot level, will this actually

HURT public schools by taking out resources…

Senator : But those resources, when you subtract that child,

the cost to educate that child is also subtracted. I've never bought

into this argument of this hurts overall public funding overall, but

especially in this area. If the school is already spending X number

of dollars for that student, and that student is extracted from the

school, then those dollars aren't needed to be spent.

Chris: I'm…I'm certainly no economist. My..my first thinking is..is

that there are some…some costs that are already there that the school

districts (can't hear because Senator comes in)

Senator : Let's just assume, WE resolve those issues. Would

your organization support parents having a right to take a voucher

and take their child to the school that they believe can change the

life of that child.

Chris: I can't speak for…for TCASE or even public school districts….

Senator : What would you recommend as their attorney?

Chris: I would recommend that we sit down and…and work with you and

Senator and Senator Shapiro and any other…ah…ah…senator or

representative that is interested in this and try to come up with

identifying at least the concerns, and then solutions to the…

Senator : WE'VE identified the concerns. And we have found

the solutions. We don't NEED any more meetings. Um. Jeff. Let me

ask you this question. You said earlier you think that it would be

harmful to the child if a parent took their child out of the school,

realized the private school was not successful, and put the child

back in. That may happen, it may not, but shouldn't have the parent

have the right to make that mistake, if it's a mistake?

Jeff: I think with us it…it comes down to a matter of fundamental

rights because of the fact….

Senator : Whose rights?

Jeff: The child and…

Senator : Right

Jeff: And…and the parent.

Senator : Okay.

Jeff: Right now there is a federal and state law that says that the

district has an obligation to provide an appropriate education. A

voucher, right now, the way things stand, would ONLY be a solution

for a certain NUMBER of parents and students, not for everyone in the

state, and so that's why, as an organization, we're unable to support

this idea that only allows certain parents to have rights when others

don't, because low-income people, people in rural parts of the state,

wouldn't have that same right.

Senator : Well not necessarily low-income people would not

have that right. If there is a private school option in HISD or

Dallas Independent School District or San , there is no reason

ah if…if we fund that voucher that they couldn't take their child…in

fact, I would argue for that. You're never, in a state of 23 million

people, you're never going to find any piece of legislation that

satisfies every parent, every child, every school. There is NEVER a

perfect piece of legislation. But you're suggesting because several

students in some areas of the state might not be able to benefit from

this, that we then don't allow the students and the parents who can

benefit from it, to take advantage of it?

Jeff: Our position is that it makes more sense to enforce the law

that's been in place since 1975. It can work and does work in the

majority of cases…(unable to hear because Senator comes in)

Senator : And again, that's what I want to go back to. The

majority of cases there does not seem to be a problem. So when THERE

IS A PROBLEM, 20, 45 cases, 326 families, the total, WHEN THERE IS A

PROBLEM….

Jeff: Then put in place mechanisms to work out that problem with the

district so that not only do you find a way to provide what's

appropriate for that child, but there are safeguards in place.

Senator (become very passionate at this point): But who

makes that decision to find what's appropriate for that child?

Should it be a lawyer, a school, or THE PARENT.

Jeff: It should be a committee of…

Senator : (become incensed at this point): Committees? A

COMMITTEE?

Jeff: And the parent….

Senator : A committee? Excuse me. I (emphasis on that " I " )

have the right to determine what is best for my child. NOT a

committee. I (emphasis on that " I " ) have the right.

Jeff: If you're asking the state to pay for it, I think you have to

look at the law, Senator.

Senator : The state… First of all, the parent, again is the

taxpayer. Secondly, the state is already spending additional

dollars, or the school districts are, to educate those with special

needs, so again, I go back to this point, if we, if we allow

that student to move, you are going to be SAVING the school district

money because they are spending more money to educate that child, so

I don't think that's an issue. But we go back to the point…this is…

and I didn't coin this issue this issue gentleman, but this is the

civil rights issue of TODAY. This is a civil rights issue. To allow

that parent and that child, and I can't think of…there is no piece of

legislation that made me madder in the last session that we were not

able to pass, than to give parents who have students with autism the

right to have school choice. NO PIECE OF LEGISLATION made me more

angry that we didn't pass that. Because we're…we're impacting

LIVES. IMPACTING LIVES GENTLEMAN. Because we don't want to give a

parent that opp…that opportunity to take that child where they think

that child can have a chance at a decent life?

Chris: Senator, if I could just add one…one bit of information…and

go along the lines of again why I think there could be a dialogue and

why some input would be helpful to work collaboratively as much as

possible with not just TCASE because we're, we're a fairly small

organization when it comes to the main players in this arena with

regards to vouchers, but I want the committee to understand one

aspect of the federal law, and that is the federal law's commitment

to a proportionate share of the federal money that comes to a child

is to be spent…to the school district…is to be spent on those numbers

of disabled children in private schools, and…and I don't want you to

go away not knowing about that program. Perhaps that would be a

venue or a vehicle to deliver, in effect, what you're asking.

Senator : I don't want to continue this…we've gone long this

morning. I will just close by saying this, that if we're allowed to

take those students out, we are going to relieve those school

districts of some of the financial burdens, so I don't think that's

an issue. Secondly, if I were to buy into the premise that both of

you present, you are suggesting that the school districts are

perfect. You are suggesting that the school districts are educating

everyone with special needs satisfactorily and therefore only a few

have an issue. I…that's the way you are presenting it. You don't

REALLY believe the school districts are perfect, correct?

Chris: I never said that.

Jeff: I never said that either.

Senator : So therefore, if the school districts aren't

perfect, if there are shortcomings where students aren't given the

opportunity to learn that they could be learning at a private sector,

shouldn't we MAKE SURE that we allow parents to move their child to a

private school for those opportunities, because we are going to have

areas where the schools aren't doing the job. Would you agree that

there are some special needs students in our school system in Texas

today that are not getting the educational opportunities they could

get in a private school?

Pause -- no reply from Jeff or Chris

Senator : Because if you argue that there isn't, then you're

arguing the public schools are perfect. So are there students in…in

special education in public schools today that aren't getting the

needed services and programs that they could get elsewhere in a

private sector.

Chris: In my OPINION, the only students that I know of in those

situations are students where the pub--where the public school has…

has already identified that issue and has placed that child into a

private school.

Senator : So you're saying that, except for where the school

districts have placed a child in a private school, that every other

child is getting all the services and programs that they need to

avoid the problems that Senator Van de Putte is concerned about it,

that Senator has been concerned about, that I'm concerned

about, so outside of those students who have already been placed, the

public schools are doing a perfect job everyone else.

Chris: (Reluctantly) No. I-I-I think that's a--that's a-a-a-a. I

don't know that that logically flows from that first conclusion, but

I do think….(Senator speaks up)

Senator : I think it's very….

Chris: (Trying to say something).

Senator : Excuse me. I think it is logical. You're

suggesting that the schools have identified those students they

cannot help and they have placed them in private schools; OTHERWISE

the schools feel like they're…they are adequately providing the

services they need for those children. That is very logical.

Chris: I think that the--the--the IEP team has in place that ability

to put together that which is necessary for those kids that are

remaining…remaining. Now, could we do a better job? (Stumbling over

word sounds again). Could we do it with enhanced services? Could we

do it at the level say that some private schools do it at? Ah, with

a, with a smaller ratio of teacher to pupil, um I'm not sure that

necessarily, that that, what one factor is--is--is a quality factor.

But certainly school districts could---does…does ah, ah, ah--of the

1,049 school districts in the state of Texas, are they all equal? Do

they all have the resources? Absolutely not.

Senator : So therefore, when there is a parent believes that

their school system isn't equal and those schools aren't doing it

properly, and there is an option, and again there may not always be

an option,…

Chris: Um-hm…

Senator : I believe those parents should have that option of

taking that voucher and taking that child somewhere else. Because

we're talking about a life, not a rule, not a lawyer. Um. We're

talking about a life. And I can just assure you that I believe there

are members on this panel who feel as passionately as I do about

this. I WILL FIGHT TO MY LAST BREATH AGAINST THOSE WHO OPPOSE

PARENTS GIVING THEIR…HAVING THE CIVIL RIGHTS TO TAKE THEIR SPECIAL

NEED STUDENT TO A SCHOOL THAT CAN GIVE THOSE STUDENTS A QUALITY

LIFE. Thank you very much.

Chris: You're welcome.