Natural

[Guest guest]

Well Said Rita.

I think the reason most of us got into this soap and toiletry business was

to make a product " unlike " the commercial products: a product that is more

natural, wholesome, less prone to cause allergic reactions, and healthier

for the skin. Since I am forced to use a synthetic preservative (Germall

Plus-has no parabens)in creams and lotions to ensure safety and longevity, I

now call my creams and lotions 98% natural.

I agree, I find many soap/toiletry makes are using commerical type bases for

lotions and soaps and adding other ingredients that are a far cry from

natural, and certainly that does not create good will with many customers

because they may think we are just scamming them and our products are not

natural at all.

If one goes to the store and reads the labels of those natural products on

the shelf, one knows that 99% of them contain a large % of synthetic

ingredients, yet they label the product as all natural.

At least, if the customer reads a Properly labeled product, it will provide

the customer the truth about what their getting.

Sherry

Sherry's Creations

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Chuck-

I get what you mean about the whole process of making armour doesn't seem all

that natural .... but my doctor herself calls it " the natural version " . I

mean, maybe the standards for what constitutes natural is just kinda going down?

I know that's what the case is for food and other products.

Lorrie,

You wrote:

> ... I only took Synthroid for 3 weeks and I've been on Armour for 2 weeks. I

> feel better. Why? Is it the placebo effect? Is it the Isocort? Is it the

> fact that either medicine will work eventually? I don't care. All I care

> about is that I prefer to take a " natural " product over a synthetic

product....

There is nothing natural about absorbing pork thyroid hormones through

your digestive tract in a proportion that is artificially adjusted in a

lab to insure uniformity. Nature intended you to get human hormones

injected directly into your blood stream. Anything else is unnatural.

The usual expectation for either type of medication is a minimum of

several months to achieve stability. The older method for titrating T4

called for retesting and adjusting in six week increments. With Hashi's,

it can take years.

Since you have such a disdain for science, I won't bother you with an

explanation about the safety concerns that prompted that protocol, or

why stability is sometimes so difficult to achieve with Hashi's.

Chuck

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[Guest guest]

I understand what you are saying Chuck, but I just don't think the T4 only

drugs do a good job. And iodine should be used b4 or with meds.

Gracia

Lorrie,

You wrote:

> ... I only took Synthroid for 3 weeks and I've been on Armour for 2 weeks. I

> feel better. Why? Is it the placebo effect? Is it the Isocort? Is it the

> fact that either medicine will work eventually? I don't care. All I care

> about is that I prefer to take a " natural " product over a synthetic

product....

There is nothing natural about absorbing pork thyroid hormones through

your digestive tract in a proportion that is artificially adjusted in a

lab to insure uniformity. Nature intended you to get human hormones

injected directly into your blood stream. Anything else is unnatural.

The usual expectation for either type of medication is a minimum of

several months to achieve stability. The older method for titrating T4

called for retesting and adjusting in six week increments. With Hashi's,

it can take years.

Since you have such a disdain for science, I won't bother you with an

explanation about the safety concerns that prompted that protocol, or

why stability is sometimes so difficult to achieve with Hashi's.

Chuck

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PM

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

> I get what you mean about the whole process of making armour doesn't

> seem all

> that natural .... but my doctor herself calls it " the natural version " . I

> mean, maybe the standards for what constitutes natural is just kinda

> going down?

The distinction is based on the idea that Armour comes from an animal

product, albeit processes, while Synthroid comes from a test tube.

However, there is absolutely no reason to think that the proportion of

T4 and T3 you ultimately get from ingesting pig glands is anywhere close

to what your own gland would produce or what you need. In principle,

each of us should have some ideal proportion for oral ingestion, but

titration to optimize that ratio would be both too complicated and too

.... unnatural.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

It's all we got. Short of transplanting a brand new thyroid gland into

my neck (grown out of my own dna) and brand new ovaries into my

where-ever (grown out of my own dna), all I got is

bioidentical " natural " hormones and desciccated thyroid. Of course

there's nothing natural about taking non-human animal/plant based

products, but do we have an alternative other than synthetic versions?

No.

I don't have a thyroid, so my best option is taking a thyroid gland in

a pill (sublingual). That is what Armour and the other brands of

desiccated thyroid are...and non-man-made/not created in a lab, but

found in nature, hence " natural " .

???

Sam :-D

[snip]

> There is nothing natural about absorbing pork thyroid hormones

through

> your digestive tract in a proportion that is artificially adjusted in

a

> lab to insure uniformity. Nature intended you to get human hormones

> injected directly into your blood stream. Anything else is unnatural.

[Guest guest]

Sam wrote:

>

> It's all we got....

Agreed. My point was that you can argue that Armour works better or

provides something that T4 only medication does not, but the fact that

it comes from an animal does not make it any more " natural " than synthetics.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Semantics. " Natural " = found in nature. I just can't go out and

capture a synthroid the same way I can hunt and capture a wild pig,

now can I?

Sam

<big cheesy grin>

> >

> > It's all we got....

>

> Agreed. My point was that you can argue that Armour works better or

> provides something that T4 only medication does not, but the fact

that

> it comes from an animal does not make it any more " natural " than

synthetics.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Sam,

You wrote:

>

>

> Semantics. " Natural " = found in nature. I just can't go out and

> capture a synthroid the same way I can hunt and capture a wild pig,

> now can I?

Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour, either. Armour is

" made " from the scraps left by meat packers from hogs raised in

commercial feed lots. Have you ever visited one of those? It's almost

enough to make you a vegan.

They have to separate the active ingredients from the pulverized gland

and mix them back into the preparation to insure batch to batch

consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep it from degrading.

That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

But, again, the real issue is whether you get the right mix of metabolic

products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3, T2 and other

metabolic products already there. One of the original arguments against

Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the body's regulatory

mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is needed. There was a real

fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much T3.

We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is still no reason to

think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone everyone. Obviously,

it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many people, but that does not

mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that an animal product will

automatically be optimal, while the synthetic can't be, which is a non

sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between people, and it has nothing

to do with pigs.

The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from a pig or a test tube.

Nature can't distinguish between them.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Oh heck, I can give the piggy a thyroidectomy and then roast the rest

of him over an open fire.

I grew up on a farm... I still like pork chops. I like my steak as

rare as it's legal to eat and not be considered animal abuse. PETA =

People Eating Tasty Animals...haha I LOVE raw oysters and can't get

enough of 'em.

Let's see, wasn't this about the word " natural " ?

Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am obviously VERY

biased against it...(but I defend your right to use it).

Based on my horrendous experience with it, I think it's crap and is

only good as sling shot ammo. If it comes to a point where I have

to " grow my own " Armour, I'm gonna have a whole farm full of

thyroidless little piggies...unless I have a really big BBQ and

invite all my friends...

Sam :-D

[snip]

>

> Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour, either. Armour is

> " made " from the scraps left by meat packers from hogs raised in

> commercial feed lots. Have you ever visited one of those? It's

almost

> enough to make you a vegan.

>

> They have to separate the active ingredients from the pulverized

gland

> and mix them back into the preparation to insure batch to batch

> consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep it from degrading.

> That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

>

> But, again, the real issue is whether you get the right mix of

metabolic

> products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3, T2 and other

> metabolic products already there. One of the original arguments

against

> Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the body's regulatory

> mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is needed. There was a

real

> fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much T3.

>

> We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is still no reason

to

> think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone everyone.

Obviously,

> it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many people, but that

does not

> mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that an animal product

will

> automatically be optimal, while the synthetic can't be, which is a

non

> sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between people, and it has

nothing

> to do with pigs.

>

> The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from a pig or a test

tube.

> Nature can't distinguish between them.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Sling shot ammo! Excellent. I was wondering what to do with my stock pile of

that garbage, er other medicine.

Sam <k9gang@...> wrote: Oh heck, I can give the piggy a

thyroidectomy and then roast the rest

of him over an open fire.

I grew up on a farm... I still like pork chops. I like my steak as

rare as it's legal to eat and not be considered animal abuse. PETA =

People Eating Tasty Animals...haha I LOVE raw oysters and can't get

enough of 'em.

Let's see, wasn't this about the word " natural " ?

Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am obviously VERY

biased against it...(but I defend your right to use it).

Based on my horrendous experience with it, I think it's crap and is

only good as sling shot ammo. If it comes to a point where I have

to " grow my own " Armour, I'm gonna have a whole farm full of

thyroidless little piggies...unless I have a really big BBQ and

invite all my friends...

Sam :-D

[snip]

>

> Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour, either. Armour is

> " made " from the scraps left by meat packers from hogs raised in

> commercial feed lots. Have you ever visited one of those? It's

almost

> enough to make you a vegan.

>

> They have to separate the active ingredients from the pulverized

gland

> and mix them back into the preparation to insure batch to batch

> consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep it from degrading.

> That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

>

> But, again, the real issue is whether you get the right mix of

metabolic

> products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3, T2 and other

> metabolic products already there. One of the original arguments

against

> Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the body's regulatory

> mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is needed. There was a

real

> fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much T3.

>

> We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is still no reason

to

> think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone everyone.

Obviously,

> it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many people, but that

does not

> mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that an animal product

will

> automatically be optimal, while the synthetic can't be, which is a

non

> sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between people, and it has

nothing

> to do with pigs.

>

> The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from a pig or a test

tube.

> Nature can't distinguish between them.

>

> Chuck

>

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Sam,

You wrote:

>

> Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am obviously VERY

> biased against it...

Weren't you one of the ones that was never given a full dose of

Synthroid? The 88 mcg is about half of what most end up getting. I am

currently on 125 mcg, and women get a higher per kg dose, about double.

So, it sounds to me more like your Synthroid doctor nearly killed you,

not the Synthroid.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck, you said:

" Armour is

" made " from the scraps left by meat packers from hogs raised in

commercial feed lots. Have you ever visited one of those? It's almost

enough to make you a vegan. "

I was a strict vegetarian for about 6 years until I was diagnosed with

Hashi's and learned that soy was bad for me and then I opted for Armour which

pretty

much sealed the deal. It's really too bad how animals are treated before

they are killed ... hopefully one day it will be better.

Sam,

You wrote:

>

>

> Semantics. " Natural " = found in nature. I just can't go out and

> capture a synthroid the same way I can hunt and capture a wild pig,

> now can I?

Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour, either.

They have to separate the active ingredients from the pulverized gland

and mix them back into the preparation to insure batch to batch

consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep it from degrading.

That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

But, again, the real issue is whether you get the right mix of metabolic

products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3, T2 and other

metabolic products already there. One of the original arguments against

Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the body's regulatory

mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is needed. There was a real

fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much T3.

We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is still no reason to

think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone everyone. Obviously,

it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many people, but that does not

mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that an animal product will

automatically be optimal, while the synthetic can't be, which is a non

sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between people, and it has nothing

to do with pigs.

The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from a pig or a test tube.

Nature can't distinguish between them.

Chuck

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

Chuck-

In so many posts you tell the people (including myself) that who were on

synthroid that their dose was way too low and that is why they feel so much more

better on a T4 and T3 drug. This is a VERY different opinion than all of our

doctors. Are you saying that you know what the synthroid doses should be more

so than sooo many of our doctors? Are you saying that the highest doses our

doctors would give us, not budging at all, should be DOUBLED? This kind of

sounds

like you are telling people to do with Synthroid EXACTLY what you tell people

not to do with Armour. Perhaps you should give both drugs the same credit?

In a message dated 7/7/2007 9:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

gumboyaya@... writes:

Sam,

You wrote:

>

> Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am obviously VERY

> biased against it...

Weren't you one of the ones that was never given a full dose of

Synthroid? The 88 mcg is about half of what most end up getting. I am

currently on 125 mcg, and women get a higher per kg dose, about double.

So, it sounds to me more like your Synthroid doctor nearly killed you,

not the Synthroid.

Chuck

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

,

I think there is a humane way to kill animals... sort of. If I am

right, if you cut a cows neck he will not release adrenaline into his

bloodstream. This happens in organically grown cows I believe. I

tend to stay away from pork, even though I am from the south and love

me some BBQ ribs. So no matter how they kill the pigs, they are bad

for you. That is unless they come in the form of Armour!!!!! It is

so hard to keep away from soy I have found. Okay, I guess I will stop

rambling...for now anyway.

Crystal

> >

> >

> > Semantics. " Natural " = found in nature. I just can't go out and

> > capture a synthroid the same way I can hunt and capture a wild pig,

> > now can I?

>

> Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour, either.

>

> They have to separate the active ingredients from the pulverized gland

> and mix them back into the preparation to insure batch to batch

> consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep it from degrading.

> That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

>

> But, again, the real issue is whether you get the right mix of

metabolic

> products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3, T2 and other

> metabolic products already there. One of the original arguments against

> Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the body's regulatory

> mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is needed. There was a real

> fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much T3.

>

> We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is still no reason to

> think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone everyone. Obviously,

> it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many people, but that does

not

> mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that an animal product will

> automatically be optimal, while the synthetic can't be, which is a non

> sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between people, and it has nothing

> to do with pigs.

>

> The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from a pig or a test tube.

> Nature can't distinguish between them.

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Crystal,

In addition to a humane death I also think that their lives should be much

better. Like for chickens, as opposed to being packed so close in cages people

have to burn their beaks off so they don't peck eachother to death ... maybe

I'm just sensitive, but I would feel much better about eating chicken if I knew

it had hung out outside for most of it's life instead.

In a message dated 7/8/2007 2:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

sweetnwright@... writes:

,

I think there is a humane way to kill animals... sort of. If I am

right, if you cut a cows neck he will not release adrenaline into his

bloodstream. This happens in organically grown cows I believe. I

tend to stay away from pork, even though I am from the south and love

me some BBQ ribs. So no matter how they kill the pigs, they are bad

for you. That is unless they come in the form of Armour!!!!! It is

so hard to keep away from soy I have found. Okay, I guess I will stop

rambling...for now anyway.

Crystal

> >

> >

> > Semantics. " Natural " = found in nature. I just can't go out and

> > capture a synthroid the same way I can hunt and capture a wild pig,

> > now can I?

>

> Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour, either.

>

> They have to separate the active ingredients from the pulverized gland

> and mix them back into the preparation to insure batch to batch

> consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep it from degrading.

> That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

>

> But, again, the real issue is whether you get the right mix of

metabolic

> products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3, T2 and other

> metabolic products already there. One of the original arguments against

> Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the body's regulatory

> mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is needed. There was a real

> fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much T3.

>

> We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is still no reason to

> think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone everyone. Obviously,

> it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many people, but that does

not

> mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that an animal product will

> automatically be optimal, while the synthetic can't be, which is a non

> sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between people, and it has nothing

> to do with pigs.

>

> The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from a pig or a test tube.

> Nature can't distinguish between them.

>

> Chuck

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

13 years of synthroid did me no good, but the first few days on Armour

did me a world of good.

Chuck, I have no thyroid gland AND no ovaries. Yes I was only on .88mcg

synthroid but I seriously doubt twice that or three times that would

have done me any good. I speak with thyroidless prople every single

say, and even those who are on double (or more) what I was on are still

in the same boat I was. My synthroid doctor ablated my HEALTHY thyroid.

I never ever had a thyroid problem at all before that. What I had was a

broken back from an equestrian accident and a doc that mistook my

bubbly personality for Graves without anything to support that theory.

I was medically raped and now, for the rest of my life, I get to deal

with that. I think I'm in pretty good spirits considering the hell I've

been put thru...the hell I was put thru for no reason.

I wasnt meaning to sound gruff or anything.

Sam

> >

> > Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am obviously VERY

> > biased against it...

>

> Weren't you one of the ones that was never given a full dose of

> Synthroid? The 88 mcg is about half of what most end up getting. I am

> currently on 125 mcg, and women get a higher per kg dose, about

double.

> So, it sounds to me more like your Synthroid doctor nearly killed

you,

> not the Synthroid.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, they are stunned and unconcious. The Humane Slaughter Act, or

the Humane Methods of Livestock Slaughter Act, is a United States

federal law designed to protect food animals during the moment of

their slaughter. It was passed in 1958. In May 13, 2002, W.

Bush signed the Farm Bill (Public Law 107-171) into law. It includes

a Resolution confirming that the HMSLA should be fully enforced.

But then again, nothing is perfect, so yes, violations do occur.

Sam

[Guest guest]

Many doctors, endos particularly rx synthroid, and it

is not enough to take care of the low or absent

thyroid. After a month on synthroid I told the endo I

was not going to continue without cytomel, so he did

me a " big favor " and ordered it for me, but of course

it wasn't enough. Then, when I started having all

kinds of pains and other symptoms, I want back to my

internist who gave me the Thyrolar (had to use Armour

until the back order of Thyrolar came in). I'm

starting to feel even better on the Thyrolar, even

though the Armour did help. It also made me sick to my

stomach. I'll be able to get another test about the

middle of August, so we'll where we are.

Roni

--- bear339@... wrote:

>

> Chuck-

>

> In so many posts you tell the people (including

> myself) that who were on

> synthroid that their dose was way too low and that

> is why they feel so much more

> better on a T4 and T3 drug. This is a VERY

> different opinion than all of our

> doctors. Are you saying that you know what the

> synthroid doses should be more

> so than sooo many of our doctors? Are you saying

> that the highest doses our

> doctors would give us, not budging at all, should be

> DOUBLED? This kind of sounds

> like you are telling people to do with Synthroid

> EXACTLY what you tell people

> not to do with Armour. Perhaps you should give both

> drugs the same credit?

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/7/2007 9:47:12 PM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> gumboyaya@... writes:

>

>

>

>

> Sam,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am

> obviously VERY

> > biased against it...

>

> Weren't you one of the ones that was never given a

> full dose of

> Synthroid? The 88 mcg is about half of what most end

> up getting. I am

> currently on 125 mcg, and women get a higher per kg

> dose, about double.

> So, it sounds to me more like your Synthroid doctor

> nearly killed you,

> not the Synthroid.

>

> Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's

> free at http://www.aol.com.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The method of killing animals by cutting their throats

and allowing the blood to drain out is actually the

kosher way of killing animals for

food, and it is thousands of years old. It's healthier

and keeps the meat from going putrid

till you get to cut it up and pack it away.

Roni

--- bear339@... wrote:

>

> Crystal,

>

> In addition to a humane death I also think that

> their lives should be much

> better. Like for chickens, as opposed to being

> packed so close in cages people

> have to burn their beaks off so they don't peck

> eachother to death ... maybe

> I'm just sensitive, but I would feel much better

> about eating chicken if I knew

> it had hung out outside for most of it's life

> instead.

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/8/2007 2:12:25 AM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> sweetnwright@... writes:

>

>

>

>

> ,

> I think there is a humane way to kill animals...

> sort of. If I am

> right, if you cut a cows neck he will not release

> adrenaline into his

> bloodstream. This happens in organically grown cows

> I believe. I

> tend to stay away from pork, even though I am from

> the south and love

> me some BBQ ribs. So no matter how they kill the

> pigs, they are bad

> for you. That is unless they come in the form of

> Armour!!!!! It is

> so hard to keep away from soy I have found. Okay, I

> guess I will stop

> rambling...for now anyway.

> Crystal

>

> > >

> > >

> > > Semantics. " Natural " = found in nature. I just

> can't go out and

> > > capture a synthroid the same way I can hunt and

> capture a wild pig,

> > > now can I?

> >

> > Yes, semantics. You can't capture a wild Armour,

> either.

> >

> > They have to separate the active ingredients from

> the pulverized gland

> > and mix them back into the preparation to insure

> batch to batch

> > consistency. Then they add preservatives to keep

> it from degrading.

> > That's about as natural as a Twinkie.

> >

> > But, again, the real issue is whether you get the

> right mix of

> metabolic

> > products by eating T4 or eating T4 with little T3,

> T2 and other

> > metabolic products already there. One of the

> original arguments against

> > Armour, was that it effectively bypassed the

> body's regulatory

> > mechanisms that determine how much T3, etc. is

> needed. There was a real

> > fear that the mix in Armour might produce too much

> T3.

> >

> > We now know that fear was unfounded, but there is

> still no reason to

> > think that Armour is optimal for anyone, let alone

> everyone. Obviously,

> > it is closer to optimal than T4 alone for many

> people, but that does

> not

> > mean it is optimal. You seem to be assuming that

> an animal product will

> > automatically be optimal, while the synthetic

> can't be, which is a non

> > sequitur. The optimal mix will vary between

> people, and it has nothing

> > to do with pigs.

> >

> > The T4 is the same molecule, whether it came from

> a pig or a test tube.

> > Nature can't distinguish between them.

> >

> > Chuck

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's

> free at http://www.aol.com.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

>

> In so many posts you tell the people (including myself) that who were on

> synthroid that their dose was way too low and that is why they feel so

> much more better on a T4 and T3 drug. This is a VERY different opinion than

all of

> our doctors. Are you saying that you know what the synthroid doses should be

> more so than sooo many of our doctors? ...

Yes, exactly. Many doctors prescribe just enough Synthroid to get the

TSH within the reference range. They are worried about the documented

ill effects at the other end of that range. However, the new

recommendations over the last five years (in our FAQ) have lowered the

top of that range from 5.0 to 3.0 . Many people do not feel well on

Synthroid until it is below 2.0 .

This is also more in line with what the manufacturers say is the

recommended full replacement dose; 88 mcg just doesn't cut it. And, this

is not just my opinion, it is becoming the recommendation of the

majority of doctors, since the professional societies have investigated

it. It is certainly my doctor's recommendation.

I am saying essentially the same thing for Armour; follow the

manufacturer's recommendation for maximum dose. The problem with this

list, though, is that people are telling you to start out taking double

the recommended limit for Armour, yet they complain that Synthroid made

them sick at half the recommended dose. It was the overly cautious

doctors' faults for under prescribing a medication which has to be

finely adjusted within a narrow window to work properly.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Sam,

You wrote:

> ...Yes I was only on .88mcg

> synthroid but I seriously doubt twice that or three times that would

> have done me any good. ...

The manufacturers' recommended _average_ dose is 1.7 mcg/kg of body

weight. That is not the maximum, which is 200 mcg. They also sell the

drug in 300 mcg pills. Thus, for an 88 mcg dose to have even been close

to what would be expected to produce benefits, you would have to have

had a body weight of 51 kg or 113 lbs. I have never met anyone on less

than 100 mcg per day, and that includes my 82 year old mother, who is

rather petite.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

Chuck-

There are many things I could say on this topic but we are clearly just never

going to agree, atleast for me until there are some better, more recent

studies. I am not talking to you about the T4-T3 topic anymore and if you say

something to me, I am just going to ignore it. I'm not trying to be rude, but

we're just going in pointless circles here.

In a message dated 7/8/2007 1:02:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

gumboyaya@... writes:

,

You wrote:

>

> In so many posts you tell the people (including myself) that who were on

> synthroid that their dose was way too low and that is why they feel so

> much more better on a T4 and T3 drug. This is a VERY different opinion than

all of

> our doctors. Are you saying that you know what the synthroid doses should

be

> more so than sooo many of our doctors? ...

Yes, exactly. Many doctors prescribe just enough Synthroid to get the

TSH within the reference range. They are worried about the documented

ill effects at the other end of that range. However, the new

recommendations over the last five years (in our FAQ) have lowered the

top of that range from 5.0 to 3.0 . Many people do not feel well on

Synthroid until it is below 2.0 .

This is also more in line with what the manufacturers say is the

recommended full replacement dose; 88 mcg just doesn't cut it. And, this

is not just my opinion, it is becoming the recommendation of the

majority of doctors, since the professional societies have investigated

it. It is certainly my doctor's recommendation.

I am saying essentially the same thing for Armour; follow the

manufacturer'manufacturer'<WBR>s recommendation for maximum dose. The

list, though, is that people are telling you to start out taking double

the recommended limit for Armour, yet they complain that Synthroid made

them sick at half the recommended dose. It was the overly cautious

doctors' faults for under prescribing a medication which has to be

finely adjusted within a narrow window to work properly.

Chuck

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

Sam, you say you were on 88 mcg Synthroid, and IIRC 11 grains of

Armour. Isn't 11 grains of Armour equal to 660 mcg Synthroid [main

ingredient only]? If so that's not 2 or 3 times that much; it's 7.5

times as much. I don't know if you could really expect the same results

in _any_ medication if you increased the dose to 750% of the former

level. Or are my numbers all screwed up?

Now, a question to you, Chuck, Gracia or anybody: What the heck happens

to the ingested hormone if someone takes the equivalent of 660 mcg

Synthroid? Everything I've read indicates it's not likely to have good

results; yet Sam feels fantastic. How can she not be HYPER??? I just

don't have a mental model for this.

> Re: Natural

>

<hypothyroidism/message/29461;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYTVobmh\

oBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE0NTY2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDkyNTEwODIEbXNnSWQDMjk0NjEEc2V\

jA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE4Mzg4NTg5Mg-->

>

>

>

> Posted by: " Sam " k9gang@...

> <mailto:k9gang@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Natural>

> stealthwind <stealthwind>

>

>

> Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:09 am (PST)

>

> 13 years of synthroid did me no good, but the first few days on Armour

> did me a world of good.

>

> Chuck, I have no thyroid gland AND no ovaries. Yes I was only on .88mcg

> synthroid but I seriously doubt twice that or three times that would

> have done me any good. I speak with thyroidless prople every single

> say, and even those who are on double (or more) what I was on are still

> in the same boat I was. My synthroid doctor ablated my HEALTHY thyroid.

> I never ever had a thyroid problem at all before that. What I had was a

> broken back from an equestrian accident and a doc that mistook my

> bubbly personality for Graves without anything to support that theory.

> I was medically raped and now, for the rest of my life, I get to deal

> with that. I think I'm in pretty good spirits considering the hell I've

> been put thru...the hell I was put thru for no reason.

>

> I wasnt meaning to sound gruff or anything.

>

> Sam

>

>

> > >

> > > Ok, Chuck, since I almost died on synthroid, I am obviously VERY

> > > biased against it...

> >

> > Weren't you one of the ones that was never given a full dose of

> > Synthroid? The 88 mcg is about half of what most end up getting. I am

> > currently on 125 mcg, and women get a higher per kg dose, about

> double.

> > So, it sounds to me more like your Synthroid doctor nearly killed

> you,

> > not the Synthroid.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

[Guest guest]

You also have to consider the side effects of a T4 drug.

http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/Synthroid.pdf

Directly from Abbott....synthroid package insert.

And altho these can also be symptoms of low thyroid, they do seem to

be exacerbated when taking this drug.

Armout Thyroid...package insert:

http://www.armourthyroid.com/PrescribingInformation.asp

Note and compare the listed adverse reactions for both products.

---

The biggest thing is when the thyroidless people I am in contact

with, who were at the time on T4 only, post their test results,

regardless of the amount of T4 they are on, the Free T4 is always

high and the Free T3 is always very low, usually below range.

---

Starting dose of Armour, as I have always been taught, has been 1-2

grains (60-120mg). I started on 2 grains, split between am and pm,

sublingual. I do hear of people being started on 1/4 grain which is

just plain cruel... I do know 1/2 grain is recommended for those with

cardiac conditions.

Sam :-D

[snip]

> Yes, exactly. Many doctors prescribe just enough Synthroid to get

the

> TSH within the reference range. They are worried about the

documented

> ill effects at the other end of that range. However, the new

> recommendations over the last five years (in our FAQ) have lowered

the

> top of that range from 5.0 to 3.0 . Many people do not feel well on

> Synthroid until it is below 2.0 .

>

> This is also more in line with what the manufacturers say is the

> recommended full replacement dose; 88 mcg just doesn't cut it. And,

this

> is not just my opinion, it is becoming the recommendation of the

> majority of doctors, since the professional societies have

investigated

> it. It is certainly my doctor's recommendation.

>

> I am saying essentially the same thing for Armour; follow the

> manufacturer's recommendation for maximum dose. The problem with

this

> list, though, is that people are telling you to start out taking

double

> the recommended limit for Armour, yet they complain that Synthroid

made

> them sick at half the recommended dose. It was the overly cautious

> doctors' faults for under prescribing a medication which has to be

> finely adjusted within a narrow window to work properly.

>

> Chuck

>

[Guest guest]

At the time I had broken my back, I was a well muscled, and extremely

fit athlete weighing approx 95 pounds. After my back injury and being

sedintary from that (couldn't walk for a while), I gained some

weight, but I was still little dinky and way less than 113lbs (maybe

105-107...maybe 110 I think).

After the RAI, I did end up at " over " 200 pounds before I started

Armour. I never did well on synthroid neither at the beginning nor at

the end of my 13 years on it.

Sam

> > ...Yes I was only on .88mcg

> > synthroid but I seriously doubt twice that or three times that

would

> > have done me any good. ...

>

> The manufacturers' recommended _average_ dose is 1.7 mcg/kg of body

> weight. That is not the maximum, which is 200 mcg. They also sell

the

> drug in 300 mcg pills. Thus, for an 88 mcg dose to have even been

close

> to what would be expected to produce benefits, you would have to

have

> had a body weight of 51 kg or 113 lbs. I have never met anyone on

less

> than 100 mcg per day, and that includes my 82 year old mother, who

is

> rather petite.

>

> Chuck

>