Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Anyone have any info about freezing the Kombucha's until you can find someone who wants one or to keep one for yourself if anything goes wrong. I keep reading conflicing advice, some say you have to flash freeze them, others say just freezing them is ok. Thanks! Namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I am not sure I would freeze a SCOBY, people have had mix reviews about it and trouble having them reproduce again after being frozen. However if you insistent on trying it then I would double seal them in ziplock bags and wrap them in a dark paper bag so the constant light does not harm them. When reconstituting them I would allow them to defrost on their own to prevent shocking, and then I would not expect good result for at least 2 generations. You will need to have starter and or vinegar as well to help with the new tea because the liquid you froze them in will probably be worthless as starter. There are better ways to store them, for example I do a collection jar. I have about a gazillion glass gallon jars I use for KT. I have set aside one of them for this very purpose of collecting extra SCOBY. It is an extra wide pickle jar with KT and all the extra SCOBY I am not using for fermenting go in there after being cultured. (It is my KT nursery :> ) What I do is when I brew new tea for fermenting I always make a little extra tea for my collection jar. I place all extra SCOBYs I am not currently using in the jar (looks like something my biology teacher had on his shelf), take out some of the KT in there and add it to my bottle in the fridge I am currently drinking from and add some fresh tea to the collection jar. I have it stored just like my other KT I am currently fermenting. Every once in a while I clean the jar out and put new tea with some starter and a little vinegar just to keep things fresh. By having a collection jar I ways have good SCOBY. This way the cultures do not go into dormant state, which as has been told to me, recently, is a misnomer for the SCOBY. When a SCOBY is not producing it is not a healthy SCOBY and trying to get it healthy can take many generations, which I am sure is producing an inferior tea. Kellie > > Anyone have any info about freezing the Kombucha's until you can find > someone who wants one or to keep one for yourself if anything goes > wrong. I keep reading conflicing advice, some say you have to flash > freeze them, others say just freezing them is ok. > > Thanks! > Namaste > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 >This way the cultures do not go into dormant state, which as has been >told to me, recently, is a misnomer for the SCOBY. When a SCOBY is not >producing it is not a healthy SCOBY and trying to get it healthy can >take many generations, which I am sure is producing an inferior tea. Kellie... not really. It just takes longer to brew because there is less bioactivity present. It's not like anything goes bad. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I was not implying that anything " goes bad " but that the tea is probably not as good as it would be with a SCOBY that is healthier. I understand that the bioactivity is slower, but by the very definition of genetics a weak parent cell produces a weak daughter cell. While manipulation of the environment can strengthen the culture, it can often take a few brewing cycles to get a viable culture to colonize again. To me this indicates a weak culture and is inferior to a strong culture that produces a colony on the first cycle. I have found this myself with some of the mistakes I have made, that it often takes a few cycles to get it right again. It just seems to make sense that a weaker culture will produce an inferior tea. Not a bad tea, but one that would not be as good as one that is made with a healthier SCOBY. I wouldn't toss any KT. I drink it all because its all good as I see it, and each batch has it's own uniqueness that I believe is beneficial, but some I believe is better than others. > > > >This way the cultures do not go into dormant state, which as has been > >told to me, recently, is a misnomer for the SCOBY. When a SCOBY is not > >producing it is not a healthy SCOBY and trying to get it healthy can > >take many generations, which I am sure is producing an inferior tea. > > Kellie... not really. It just takes longer to brew because there is less > bioactivity present. It's not like anything goes bad. > > --V > > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ > --A.J. Muste > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 >I was not implying that anything " goes bad " but that the tea is >probably not as good as it would be with a SCOBY that is healthier. > >I understand that the bioactivity is slower, but by the very >definition of genetics a weak parent cell produces a weak daughter >cell. Kellie, I don't mean to hassle you over this, but I really don't agree and I think this is an important point to make. And, I'm just trying to articulate it, so please bear with me. The SCOBY is a cellulose mat that the bacteria in the culture actually construct for themselves. It's a product of bacterial activity, but not itself a living entity. Each bacteria within the SCOBY is its own entity. But as many people have said, the presence of a SCOBY does not actually determine the quality of the brew, because the bacteria and yeast live throughout the entire brew. If you leave all the offspring SCOBYS in the brewing vessel, eventually the older SCOBY darken and get floppy. I think this is not an indication that the brew is " weak " but that the bacteria always create a new SCOBY. The older SCOBYs become the less-favored place to hang out. The SCOBY is not a living entity, it is a house for the bacteria. They like to make a new house if they are given the building blocks to do so. I've seen that in a starter pot, in which mature KT is added periodically, the SCOBYs stay firm and stable. I theorize this is because the yeast have mostly gone dormant so there's no " mussing " of the SCOBYs. Also, there is generally no input of strong nutrients, because only mature KT is put into the jar. So the bacteria hang out very happily in their existing homes, slowly adding to them. >While manipulation of the environment can strengthen the >culture, it can often take a few brewing cycles to get a viable >culture to colonize again. To me this indicates a weak culture and is >inferior to a strong culture that produces a colony on the first >cycle. I have found this myself with some of the mistakes I have made, >that it often takes a few cycles to get it right again. You're right that it can take a few cycles to make a SCOBY again, but if the brew is fermenting it is already colonized. It's not a weak culture in the sense of any individual bacteria being weakened. Something may have happened that killed off a portion of the bacteria. Or in the case of adding raw honey, it's theorized that the enzymes (bacteria) in the honey might compete with the KT bacteria-- in that case the KT bacteria that are the ones fermenting the brew will be fewer in number until they start to take up all the space again. But each individual KT bacteria is very strong. I didn't understand the dangers of focusing on the SCOBY as the indicator of culture health until this thread started. Because it's just not the case. There can be outside factors that affect the SCOBY production (such as room temperature) that do not mean that the finished brew is less good. >It just seems to make sense that a weaker culture will produce an >inferior tea. Not a bad tea, but one that would not be as good as one >that is made with a healthier SCOBY. That is the fallacy. The SCOBY is not alive or healthy/not healthy. The SCOBY may look prettier or not prettier to our eyes, but it's beside the point for the bacteria and yeast culture itself. >I wouldn't toss any KT. I drink >it all because its all good as I see it, and each batch has it's own >uniqueness that I believe is beneficial, but some I believe is better >than others. I think a lot of us believe that, but I've drunk a lot of KT over the last year (a quart a day), and while it can be anxiety producing not to receive a SCOBY from a batch, the KT from the batch has been delicious and didn't in any way give me a sense of being less than. For me, the ingredients that go into a batch, brewing length, perfection at bottling time, time allowed for aging in the bottle-- those are the factors that make a given batch better than another. If you realize that the SCOBY is a convenience for humans more than a necessity (the brew will brew with just starter liquid), you can begin to understand why the most experienced folks on the list strongly discourage focusing on the SCOBY as the indicator of brew health. I've only just begun to grasp it myself. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 >I was not implying that anything " goes bad " but that the tea is >probably not as good as it would be with a SCOBY that is healthier. > >I understand that the bioactivity is slower, but by the very >definition of genetics a weak parent cell produces a weak daughter >cell. Kellie, I don't mean to hassle you over this, but I really don't agree and I think this is an important point to make. And, I'm just trying to articulate it, so please bear with me. The SCOBY is a cellulose mat that the bacteria in the culture actually construct for themselves. It's a product of bacterial activity, but not itself a living entity. Each bacteria within the SCOBY is its own entity. But as many people have said, the presence of a SCOBY does not actually determine the quality of the brew, because the bacteria and yeast live throughout the entire brew. If you leave all the offspring SCOBYS in the brewing vessel, eventually the older SCOBY darken and get floppy. I think this is not an indication that the brew is " weak " but that the bacteria always create a new SCOBY. The older SCOBYs become the less-favored place to hang out. The SCOBY is not a living entity, it is a house for the bacteria. They like to make a new house if they are given the building blocks to do so. I've seen that in a starter pot, in which mature KT is added periodically, the SCOBYs stay firm and stable. I theorize this is because the yeast have mostly gone dormant so there's no " mussing " of the SCOBYs. Also, there is generally no input of strong nutrients, because only mature KT is put into the jar. So the bacteria hang out very happily in their existing homes, slowly adding to them. >While manipulation of the environment can strengthen the >culture, it can often take a few brewing cycles to get a viable >culture to colonize again. To me this indicates a weak culture and is >inferior to a strong culture that produces a colony on the first >cycle. I have found this myself with some of the mistakes I have made, >that it often takes a few cycles to get it right again. You're right that it can take a few cycles to make a SCOBY again, but if the brew is fermenting it is already colonized. It's not a weak culture in the sense of any individual bacteria being weakened. Something may have happened that killed off a portion of the bacteria. Or in the case of adding raw honey, it's theorized that the enzymes (bacteria) in the honey might compete with the KT bacteria-- in that case the KT bacteria that are the ones fermenting the brew will be fewer in number until they start to take up all the space again. But each individual KT bacteria is very strong. I didn't understand the dangers of focusing on the SCOBY as the indicator of culture health until this thread started. Because it's just not the case. There can be outside factors that affect the SCOBY production (such as room temperature) that do not mean that the finished brew is less good. >It just seems to make sense that a weaker culture will produce an >inferior tea. Not a bad tea, but one that would not be as good as one >that is made with a healthier SCOBY. That is the fallacy. The SCOBY is not alive or healthy/not healthy. The SCOBY may look prettier or not prettier to our eyes, but it's beside the point for the bacteria and yeast culture itself. >I wouldn't toss any KT. I drink >it all because its all good as I see it, and each batch has it's own >uniqueness that I believe is beneficial, but some I believe is better >than others. I think a lot of us believe that, but I've drunk a lot of KT over the last year (a quart a day), and while it can be anxiety producing not to receive a SCOBY from a batch, the KT from the batch has been delicious and didn't in any way give me a sense of being less than. For me, the ingredients that go into a batch, brewing length, perfection at bottling time, time allowed for aging in the bottle-- those are the factors that make a given batch better than another. If you realize that the SCOBY is a convenience for humans more than a necessity (the brew will brew with just starter liquid), you can begin to understand why the most experienced folks on the list strongly discourage focusing on the SCOBY as the indicator of brew health. I've only just begun to grasp it myself. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I truly believe you must have been a lawyer in another life, you make excellent points. I just have a few comments I will make in regard to your response. > The SCOBY is a cellulose mat that the bacteria in the culture actually construct for themselves. It's a product of bacterial activity, but not itself a living entity. Each bacteria within the SCOBY is its own entity. I have made no claims that the SCOBY is a living entity. In fact I made it very clear in my posts that I understood that is was a " colony " . However, though bacteria when combined together are not a single entity, bacteria do group together for better survival, are able to what appears communicate collectively and make decisions collectively. This article explains it well: www.world-science.net/exclusives/050418_bactfrm.htm The whole reason the SCOBY lives in harmony with all its micro-organisms is that it has found that its survival is better collectively than apart. This does not make it a living entity, however it does show that the optimal state in which all the organisms exist is in a colony. Optimal levels are always important to an organism's survival. Again as I have said before there is living, and there is living better. >But as many people have said, the presence of a SCOBY does not > actually determine the quality of the brew, because the bacteria and yeast live throughout the entire brew. Yes there are bacteria and yeast present in the KT that does not colonize, and yes the tea does ferment creating a beneficial product, but without the addition of another colony it is not at optimal levels. So I can only conclude that like any other organism producing offspring at non-optimal levels that the by product as well as the off-spring must be inferior as well. " A culture not producing at optimal levels (creating a colony) is not a healthy culture. " That is an exact quote I received from a micro-biologist who makes KT. I can only trust his advice and knowledge, since he has the Ph.d, and I have never seen anything like his own cultures that he so graciously shared with me. I was quite green with envy the moment I touched them, but they have been very good to me in spite of my envy, and continue to allow me to gain from his knowledge and wisdom. They colonized on the second day of fermenting and are to date my strongest cultures for reproducing big, thick second generation cultures. From what I understand when the cultures have the right environment they will always chose to colonize. Why? Because it is the optimal environment for its survival. So since the tea is a by-product of the SCOBY it is then in fact coming from organisms that are not at their best if there is no colony. I can only conclude this based on what I have seen and what I have read, though I understand your own experience and reading maybe different, and I respect that. > If you leave all the offspring SCOBYS in the brewing vessel, eventually the older SCOBY darken and get floppy. I think this is not an indication that the brew is " weak " but that the bacteria always create a new SCOBY. The older SCOBYs become the less-favored place to hang out. The SCOBY is not a living entity, it is a house for the bacteria. They like to make a new house if they are given the building blocks to do so. I am not sure I understand this reasoning correctly. Do you think that the living bacteria and yeast leave the old SCOBY and go to a new one? That is an interesting perspective. Did you read this somewhere or conclude it based on your own experience from culturing? Since all organisms have a life cycle and must compete for life with others that are younger and stronger, I assumed that darker organisms are yeast that have done their job and are beginning to died off. They appear to be losing the battle to compete for space with stronger, younger organisms. To answer the question whether or not the KT they make is still good is a matter of opinion. I have an older SCOBY that is very brown but is one of my best culture producers, but it does produce a very sour brew, and I am not sure I am going to be able to use it much longer for KT, since the KT it makes is darn near vinegar after only a few days. The new cultures it makes though are great and make awesome tasting KT that is tart, and refreshing. I know from making sour dough starter (another symbiotic culture) that the longer you let it mature the more sour it becomes. Which from what I can tell is a matter of personal desire whether or not it is " good " . I love a really sour dough so I used to let it age until my family screamed that the bread burned their tongues. Does an older organism have a more difficult time producing than a younger organism? Generally the answer is yes, why would colony organism be any different, however whether or not it is good is probably a matter of personal preference, though I am sure the chemical make up differs as the organisms age.For example we see various acids appear and disappear in a continuous brew. > I've seen that in a starter pot, in which mature KT is added periodically, > the SCOBYs stay firm and stable. I theorize this is because the yeast have > mostly gone dormant so there's no " mussing " of the SCOBYs. Also, there is > generally no input of strong nutrients, because only mature KT is put into > the jar. So the bacteria hang out very happily in their existing homes, > slowly adding to them. I have been told that the word " dormant " is a misnomer when referring to non-producing Kombucha colonies. According to my sources dormancy implys that a spore has formed and from what I understand there is no such thing as spores with these cultures of bacteria, and yeast does not spore at all, they are either healthy (reproducing) or not healthy (not reproducing). Again this is something I have recently learned from my own research and consulting of microbiologists. Now as far as why they do not reproduce I would theorize because they no longer have nutrient to do so, that they are conserving all their energy to survive and I also wonder if the nutrient that they are in is some how " preserving them " since it is a vinegar and inhibits decomposition? Kellie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I truly believe you must have been a lawyer in another life, you make excellent points. I just have a few comments I will make in regard to your response. > The SCOBY is a cellulose mat that the bacteria in the culture actually construct for themselves. It's a product of bacterial activity, but not itself a living entity. Each bacteria within the SCOBY is its own entity. I have made no claims that the SCOBY is a living entity. In fact I made it very clear in my posts that I understood that is was a " colony " . However, though bacteria when combined together are not a single entity, bacteria do group together for better survival, are able to what appears communicate collectively and make decisions collectively. This article explains it well: www.world-science.net/exclusives/050418_bactfrm.htm The whole reason the SCOBY lives in harmony with all its micro-organisms is that it has found that its survival is better collectively than apart. This does not make it a living entity, however it does show that the optimal state in which all the organisms exist is in a colony. Optimal levels are always important to an organism's survival. Again as I have said before there is living, and there is living better. >But as many people have said, the presence of a SCOBY does not > actually determine the quality of the brew, because the bacteria and yeast live throughout the entire brew. Yes there are bacteria and yeast present in the KT that does not colonize, and yes the tea does ferment creating a beneficial product, but without the addition of another colony it is not at optimal levels. So I can only conclude that like any other organism producing offspring at non-optimal levels that the by product as well as the off-spring must be inferior as well. " A culture not producing at optimal levels (creating a colony) is not a healthy culture. " That is an exact quote I received from a micro-biologist who makes KT. I can only trust his advice and knowledge, since he has the Ph.d, and I have never seen anything like his own cultures that he so graciously shared with me. I was quite green with envy the moment I touched them, but they have been very good to me in spite of my envy, and continue to allow me to gain from his knowledge and wisdom. They colonized on the second day of fermenting and are to date my strongest cultures for reproducing big, thick second generation cultures. From what I understand when the cultures have the right environment they will always chose to colonize. Why? Because it is the optimal environment for its survival. So since the tea is a by-product of the SCOBY it is then in fact coming from organisms that are not at their best if there is no colony. I can only conclude this based on what I have seen and what I have read, though I understand your own experience and reading maybe different, and I respect that. > If you leave all the offspring SCOBYS in the brewing vessel, eventually the older SCOBY darken and get floppy. I think this is not an indication that the brew is " weak " but that the bacteria always create a new SCOBY. The older SCOBYs become the less-favored place to hang out. The SCOBY is not a living entity, it is a house for the bacteria. They like to make a new house if they are given the building blocks to do so. I am not sure I understand this reasoning correctly. Do you think that the living bacteria and yeast leave the old SCOBY and go to a new one? That is an interesting perspective. Did you read this somewhere or conclude it based on your own experience from culturing? Since all organisms have a life cycle and must compete for life with others that are younger and stronger, I assumed that darker organisms are yeast that have done their job and are beginning to died off. They appear to be losing the battle to compete for space with stronger, younger organisms. To answer the question whether or not the KT they make is still good is a matter of opinion. I have an older SCOBY that is very brown but is one of my best culture producers, but it does produce a very sour brew, and I am not sure I am going to be able to use it much longer for KT, since the KT it makes is darn near vinegar after only a few days. The new cultures it makes though are great and make awesome tasting KT that is tart, and refreshing. I know from making sour dough starter (another symbiotic culture) that the longer you let it mature the more sour it becomes. Which from what I can tell is a matter of personal desire whether or not it is " good " . I love a really sour dough so I used to let it age until my family screamed that the bread burned their tongues. Does an older organism have a more difficult time producing than a younger organism? Generally the answer is yes, why would colony organism be any different, however whether or not it is good is probably a matter of personal preference, though I am sure the chemical make up differs as the organisms age.For example we see various acids appear and disappear in a continuous brew. > I've seen that in a starter pot, in which mature KT is added periodically, > the SCOBYs stay firm and stable. I theorize this is because the yeast have > mostly gone dormant so there's no " mussing " of the SCOBYs. Also, there is > generally no input of strong nutrients, because only mature KT is put into > the jar. So the bacteria hang out very happily in their existing homes, > slowly adding to them. I have been told that the word " dormant " is a misnomer when referring to non-producing Kombucha colonies. According to my sources dormancy implys that a spore has formed and from what I understand there is no such thing as spores with these cultures of bacteria, and yeast does not spore at all, they are either healthy (reproducing) or not healthy (not reproducing). Again this is something I have recently learned from my own research and consulting of microbiologists. Now as far as why they do not reproduce I would theorize because they no longer have nutrient to do so, that they are conserving all their energy to survive and I also wonder if the nutrient that they are in is some how " preserving them " since it is a vinegar and inhibits decomposition? Kellie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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