Re: FAM Secret Society Referendum: TWO issues need member votes...

[Guest guest]

Yes on Issue one.

No on Issue two.

>

> Please read this message in its entirety. It is NOT a repeat.

>

> We now have TWO issues before us that need to be voted on:

>

> PREMISE: As mentioned in an earlier message, I am toying with the

> idea of shutting down the Family Forum. The Fellowship of the

> Aspergian Miracle Family Forum is for parents, friends, relatives,

> spouses, etc. of Aspies who want to ask questions of Aspies to

> better understand the Aspies they have in their lives.

>

> None but a few members seem to care about anything we Aspies have to

> say. And some of the infrequently posting members post

> disrespectfully towards Aspies, believe in quack cures and

> treatments, etc.

>

> I am therefore holding this REFERENDUM which consists of TWO

issues.

> One of them binding, one of them non-binding. A binding referendum

> in this case means that I, as administrator, MUST do what the

> constituency says IF I elect to shut down the Family Forum. A

> non-binding referendum in this case means that I will take what the

> constituency says into consideration IF I decide to shut down the

> Family Forum.

>

> All votes must be public, and not given by private e-mails so that

> members can see for themselves that the vote has been fair. I will

> be the last person to vote. The polls will close in a few days, or

> upon NOs being voted for both Issues One and Two.

>

> Written opinions are welcome, but please respond first like so:

>

> Issue One: (Your vote)

> Issue Two: (Your vote)

>

> REFERENDUM:

>

> ISSUE 1 [bINDING]: Would it be acceptable to you to move ten or

> fifteen of the most frequently posting members of the Family Forum

> over here and delete the Family Forum? these would be members who

> seem to be of good character and willing to learn more about autism.

>

> VOTE: YES or NO

>

> I will NOT move those parents over here if even ONE MEMBER here

> votes NO.

>

> ISSUE 2 [NON-BINDING]: Would it be acceptable to you to move the

> ENTIRE FAMILY FORUM MEMBERSHIP (some 160+ members over here? Many

of

> these members are pro-cure, pro-treatment, pro-fad, and have

> negative opinions of Aspies).

>

> VOTE YES or NO.

>

> [EXPLANATORY VOTE: The NON-BINDING aspect of Issue Two pertains

only

> if people UNANIMOUSLY vote YES. I need to think carefully before

> mixing AS people and NTs because I have seen other forums

degenerate

> when this has happened. If even one person votes NO, then the vote

> shall be BINDING.]

>

> Please keep in mind when voting that these FF members are NTs, and

> this forum was founded as an Aspie-only forum for the express

> purpose of giving you a safe-haven from discrimination.

>

> Don't be afraid to say you do not want the NTs here. I made

> these forums for you and your vote will not be held against you,

and

> I will not allow fighting between the members for their votes or

> opinions.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Issue One: Yes

Issue Two: Yes

You might consider offering to the 160 or so parents in question the option of

being

moved, encouraging them to participate constructively thereafter and warning

anyone who

participates, aspie or NT, how you will deal with anyone who causes trouble. By

offering

the NTs the option of moving, you won't take the ratherunfair course of making

the

decision to move or be excluded for them. Simply assuming that any NT present

will

automatically cause trouble seems rather unfair to me, too. I would rather see

people of

any description who want to be here allowed to be, instead of subtly making any

non-

apsie unwelcome.

>

> Please read this message in its entirety. It is NOT a repeat.

>

> We now have TWO issues before us that need to be voted on:

>

> PREMISE: As mentioned in an earlier message, I am toying with the

> idea of shutting down the Family Forum. The Fellowship of the

> Aspergian Miracle Family Forum is for parents, friends, relatives,

> spouses, etc. of Aspies who want to ask questions of Aspies to

> better understand the Aspies they have in their lives.

>

> None but a few members seem to care about anything we Aspies have to

> say. And some of the infrequently posting members post

> disrespectfully towards Aspies, believe in quack cures and

> treatments, etc.

>

> I am therefore holding this REFERENDUM which consists of TWO issues.

> One of them binding, one of them non-binding. A binding referendum

> in this case means that I, as administrator, MUST do what the

> constituency says IF I elect to shut down the Family Forum. A

> non-binding referendum in this case means that I will take what the

> constituency says into consideration IF I decide to shut down the

> Family Forum.

>

> All votes must be public, and not given by private e-mails so that

> members can see for themselves that the vote has been fair. I will

> be the last person to vote. The polls will close in a few days, or

> upon NOs being voted for both Issues One and Two.

>

> Written opinions are welcome, but please respond first like so:

>

> Issue One: (Your vote)

> Issue Two: (Your vote)

>

> REFERENDUM:

>

> ISSUE 1 [bINDING]: Would it be acceptable to you to move ten or

> fifteen of the most frequently posting members of the Family Forum

> over here and delete the Family Forum? these would be members who

> seem to be of good character and willing to learn more about autism.

>

> VOTE: YES or NO

>

> I will NOT move those parents over here if even ONE MEMBER here

> votes NO.

>

> ISSUE 2 [NON-BINDING]: Would it be acceptable to you to move the

> ENTIRE FAMILY FORUM MEMBERSHIP (some 160+ members over here? Many of

> these members are pro-cure, pro-treatment, pro-fad, and have

> negative opinions of Aspies).

>

> VOTE YES or NO.

>

> [EXPLANATORY VOTE: The NON-BINDING aspect of Issue Two pertains only

> if people UNANIMOUSLY vote YES. I need to think carefully before

> mixing AS people and NTs because I have seen other forums degenerate

> when this has happened. If even one person votes NO, then the vote

> shall be BINDING.]

>

> Please keep in mind when voting that these FF members are NTs, and

> this forum was founded as an Aspie-only forum for the express

> purpose of giving you a safe-haven from discrimination.

>

> Don't be afraid to say you do not want the NTs here. I made

> these forums for you and your vote will not be held against you, and

> I will not allow fighting between the members for their votes or

> opinions.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

1 yes, 2 no, does seem to be the most compassionate vote.

The NTs' role could be defined as just to talk about AS issues to

help themselves. Also, on grounds of not conflicting with the

original purpose here, the fact that they are NT could be kept

visibly flagged, so that when we are discussing AS struggles among

ourselves we don't mistake an NT'as view for an aspie's view. if

they have info to contribute to such a topic it should be allowed,

but it is an outside third party's info + they would not contribute

opinions about what being aspie is like.

>

with this smaller

> group, at the slightest sign of trouble, a person could be booted

> out, and damage control could be kept to a minimum.

No person admitted to any group should ever have less than a parity

of personally fair rights to defend themselves when in trouble. The

ethic that personal fairness always supervenes any group's group

interests, is the most key ethic of all for any place with a safe

atmosphere.

In the whole world, it's also the ethic that define as fairly

constituted society, + its absence is the cause of most wars.

[Guest guest]

Your votes are noted, and your points, as always, are brilliant.

Thanks for responding.

Tom

Administrator

Issue One: Yes

Issue Two: Yes

You might consider offering to the 160 or so parents in question the

option of being moved, encouraging them to participate

constructively thereafter and warning anyone who participates, aspie

or NT, how you will deal with anyone who causes trouble. By

offering the NTs the option of moving, you won't take the

ratherunfair course of making the decision to move or be excluded

for them. Simply assuming that any NT present will automatically

cause trouble seems rather unfair to me, too. I would rather see

people of any description who want to be here allowed to be, instead

of subtly making any non-apsie unwelcome.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your vote Maurice. You consistently give good opinions.

I have no way to " flag " an Aspie from an NT without disrupting the

natural flow of the conversation, and so both would have to identify

themselves via the " honor system. " I'm not sure how that would play

out, but it is something to consider.

What I COULD do is put all NTs not already here on permanent

moderated status and then verfify that they are identifying

themselves, but approving their posts could only occur when I am

online, so conversations which could otherwise take minutes might

take days.

I will consider this option nevertheless.

Tom

Administrator

1 yes, 2 no, does seem to be the most compassionate vote.

The NTs' role could be defined as just to talk about AS issues to

help themselves. Also, on grounds of not conflicting with the

original purpose here, the fact that they are NT could be kept

visibly flagged, so that when we are discussing AS struggles among

ourselves we don't mistake an NT'as view for an aspie's view. if

they have info to contribute to such a topic it should be allowed,

but it is an outside third party's info + they would not contribute

opinions about what being aspie is like.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your vote Maurice. You consistently give good opinions.

I have no way to " flag " an Aspie from an NT without disrupting the

natural flow of the conversation, and so both would have to identify

themselves via the " honor system. " I'm not sure how that would play

out, but it is something to consider.

What I COULD do is put all NTs not already here on permanent

moderated status and then verfify that they are identifying

themselves, but approving their posts could only occur when I am

online, so conversations which could otherwise take minutes might

take days.

I will consider this option nevertheless.

Tom

Administrator

1 yes, 2 no, does seem to be the most compassionate vote.

The NTs' role could be defined as just to talk about AS issues to

help themselves. Also, on grounds of not conflicting with the

original purpose here, the fact that they are NT could be kept

visibly flagged, so that when we are discussing AS struggles among

ourselves we don't mistake an NT'as view for an aspie's view. if

they have info to contribute to such a topic it should be allowed,

but it is an outside third party's info + they would not contribute

opinions about what being aspie is like.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your vote Maurice. You consistently give good opinions.

I have no way to " flag " an Aspie from an NT without disrupting the

natural flow of the conversation, and so both would have to identify

themselves via the " honor system. " I'm not sure how that would play

out, but it is something to consider.

What I COULD do is put all NTs not already here on permanent

moderated status and then verfify that they are identifying

themselves, but approving their posts could only occur when I am

online, so conversations which could otherwise take minutes might

take days.

I will consider this option nevertheless.

Tom

Administrator

1 yes, 2 no, does seem to be the most compassionate vote.

The NTs' role could be defined as just to talk about AS issues to

help themselves. Also, on grounds of not conflicting with the

original purpose here, the fact that they are NT could be kept

visibly flagged, so that when we are discussing AS struggles among

ourselves we don't mistake an NT'as view for an aspie's view. if

they have info to contribute to such a topic it should be allowed,

but it is an outside third party's info + they would not contribute

opinions about what being aspie is like.

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes on Issue one.

> No on Issue two.

>

>

>

Um, I have to admit I was looking for the original string and missed

issue two I would like to respond with the appropriate

Yes on Issue one.

No on Issue two.

Mimi

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes on Issue one.

> No on Issue two.

>

>

>

Um, I have to admit I was looking for the original string and missed

issue two I would like to respond with the appropriate

Yes on Issue one.

No on Issue two.

Mimi

[Guest guest]

One : Aye

Two: Halfhearted nay. I don't want absolutely all, but the most

supportive are fine. As there is no mix, nay is my vote.

[Guest guest]

One : Aye

Two: Halfhearted nay. I don't want absolutely all, but the most

supportive are fine. As there is no mix, nay is my vote.

[Guest guest]

Maurice,

I wouldn't say that a person should be entirely denied the

opportunity to defend himself or herself. However, I'm picking up on

Tom's strong desire (and that of others here) not to scare away even

one aspie, which could happen with a protracted trial basis of

someone who had possibly begun to wreak havoc and for whom the forum

was not initially created. In the worst case scenario, with such an

endeavor toward fairness, by the time it was decided the person

should go, several innocent people could have already disappeared

from the stress of it all. It has happened here and in other forums

before.

In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or do.)

Also, speaking from my own life experience, sometimes in my effort to

be fair and not too quick to judge, I wait too long to take action

and the situation actually gets worse as a result.

If any group of NTs, small or large, is allowed in, they could know

from the outset that this is simply an experiment and that the mods

could at any moment decide it was just not working out for one or

more (or all) of them. There are plenty of other places they could

go that are created just for them. There are fewer places like this

for us.

I voted yes to 1 and no to 2, so I'm not saying not to let anyone

in. But maybe this forum (or any forum) cannot or should not stand

up to the same scrutiny or be held to the same standards as an entire

society into which people are born and not conditionally admitted as

could be the case here with the family forum people.

I hope that came off as respectful to you and not too harsh. I do

respect and appreciate your views.

> >

> with this smaller

> > group, at the slightest sign of trouble, a person could be booted

> > out, and damage control could be kept to a minimum.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your vote and comments.

Tom

Administrator

One : Aye

Two: Halfhearted nay. I don't want absolutely all, but the most

supportive are fine. As there is no mix, nay is my vote.

[Guest guest]

" In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or do.) "

A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and maybe

some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I fear I

have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way recently.

However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views but the

fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia who were

tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we could

do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that I

purged insulted the people posting the facts and said basically, " I

don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I want

(even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

One gets tired of it.

It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive, and my

opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only a few

sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of insensitive

ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family Forum

over here in any circumstance.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or do.) "

A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and maybe

some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I fear I

have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way recently.

However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views but the

fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia who were

tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we could

do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that I

purged insulted the people posting the facts and said basically, " I

don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I want

(even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

One gets tired of it.

It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive, and my

opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only a few

sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of insensitive

ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family Forum

over here in any circumstance.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or do.) "

A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and maybe

some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I fear I

have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way recently.

However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views but the

fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia who were

tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we could

do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that I

purged insulted the people posting the facts and said basically, " I

don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I want

(even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

One gets tired of it.

It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive, and my

opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only a few

sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of insensitive

ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family Forum

over here in any circumstance.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Tom,

No need to apologize. I'm not even sure why you are apologizing!

You guys were here when I got diagnosed. You let me mostly lurk with

only an occasional post, without giving me a hard time or kicking me

out -- and you still let me pop in from time to time. I'm sure

others like me really appreciate it, too. During the time I

practically lived here, I learned a lot about what we aspies have in

common (generally) and how different we all can be. Being a part of

this community has helped me in ways I can't even begin to explain.

Any signs that people were getting your goat (or anybody else's goat)

back in the day were just signs that you guys were real humans out

there in the world, trying to do your best to make sense of it all

just like me. Yeah, I remember a rant or two, but it's okay. Really,

it's okay!

Actually, from your reply, it looks like the current FF situation is

bringing up some old unpleasant memories, though I don't know the

details of that situation. And my post brought up even more, so I

kind of feel bad about my part in that.

There's no easy answer about the FF people. I'm sure you'll make the

best decision possible.

Take care,

>

> " In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

> and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

> on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

> taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

> spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

> necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

> take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

> gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or

do.) "

>

> A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and

maybe

> some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I fear

I

> have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way

recently.

>

> However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

> anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views but

the

> fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia who

were

> tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

> issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we

could

> do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

>

> The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that I

> purged insulted the people posting the facts and said basically, " I

> don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I want

> (even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

>

> One gets tired of it.

>

> It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive, and

my

> opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only a

few

> sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of insensitive

> ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family

Forum

> over here in any circumstance.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Tom,

No need to apologize. I'm not even sure why you are apologizing!

You guys were here when I got diagnosed. You let me mostly lurk with

only an occasional post, without giving me a hard time or kicking me

out -- and you still let me pop in from time to time. I'm sure

others like me really appreciate it, too. During the time I

practically lived here, I learned a lot about what we aspies have in

common (generally) and how different we all can be. Being a part of

this community has helped me in ways I can't even begin to explain.

Any signs that people were getting your goat (or anybody else's goat)

back in the day were just signs that you guys were real humans out

there in the world, trying to do your best to make sense of it all

just like me. Yeah, I remember a rant or two, but it's okay. Really,

it's okay!

Actually, from your reply, it looks like the current FF situation is

bringing up some old unpleasant memories, though I don't know the

details of that situation. And my post brought up even more, so I

kind of feel bad about my part in that.

There's no easy answer about the FF people. I'm sure you'll make the

best decision possible.

Take care,

>

> " In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

> and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

> on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

> taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

> spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

> necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

> take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

> gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or

do.) "

>

> A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and

maybe

> some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I fear

I

> have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way

recently.

>

> However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

> anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views but

the

> fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia who

were

> tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

> issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we

could

> do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

>

> The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that I

> purged insulted the people posting the facts and said basically, " I

> don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I want

> (even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

>

> One gets tired of it.

>

> It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive, and

my

> opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only a

few

> sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of insensitive

> ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family

Forum

> over here in any circumstance.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Tom,

No need to apologize. I'm not even sure why you are apologizing!

You guys were here when I got diagnosed. You let me mostly lurk with

only an occasional post, without giving me a hard time or kicking me

out -- and you still let me pop in from time to time. I'm sure

others like me really appreciate it, too. During the time I

practically lived here, I learned a lot about what we aspies have in

common (generally) and how different we all can be. Being a part of

this community has helped me in ways I can't even begin to explain.

Any signs that people were getting your goat (or anybody else's goat)

back in the day were just signs that you guys were real humans out

there in the world, trying to do your best to make sense of it all

just like me. Yeah, I remember a rant or two, but it's okay. Really,

it's okay!

Actually, from your reply, it looks like the current FF situation is

bringing up some old unpleasant memories, though I don't know the

details of that situation. And my post brought up even more, so I

kind of feel bad about my part in that.

There's no easy answer about the FF people. I'm sure you'll make the

best decision possible.

Take care,

>

> " In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

> and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning curve

> on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and were

> taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or mean-

> spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

> necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

> take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

> gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or

do.) "

>

> A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and

maybe

> some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I fear

I

> have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way

recently.

>

> However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

> anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views but

the

> fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia who

were

> tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

> issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we

could

> do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

>

> The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that I

> purged insulted the people posting the facts and said basically, " I

> don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I want

> (even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

>

> One gets tired of it.

>

> It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive, and

my

> opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only a

few

> sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of insensitive

> ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family

Forum

> over here in any circumstance.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Issue 1: A wishwashy Yes

Issue 2: No

For the small group who are willing to listen and learn the exchange of

information may be beneficial for both us and them. My reservations

have less to do with being misinterpreted, we have the ability to

clarify when necessary but the willingness of members now posting to

fully express themselves may be hampered with reservations. If a

sanctuary was made available for the members here who feel they need a

different outlet, perhaps this would be a viable solution. This is the

reason for my wishywashy answer on #1.

I'd say it might be nice to include the larger group with the senario

running through my head of being able to use the fact that the NT's

would be outnumbered and any sort of hogwash they may come up would be

deludged with honest, factual replies.

When I first came to this forum, I went into the previous postings and

read all of them from begining to end. I did not do the same with the

other Fam forum unfortunately, so I can not comment on the problem of

head butting with obstinate AS family members. I will take the Mods

word on that and with that being said, I would have to say that it would

only serve to disenchant those here who daily must deal with a world

that doesn't seem to care and may cause them to leave. That would be

unacceptable.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Issue 1: A wishwashy Yes

Issue 2: No

For the small group who are willing to listen and learn the exchange of

information may be beneficial for both us and them. My reservations

have less to do with being misinterpreted, we have the ability to

clarify when necessary but the willingness of members now posting to

fully express themselves may be hampered with reservations. If a

sanctuary was made available for the members here who feel they need a

different outlet, perhaps this would be a viable solution. This is the

reason for my wishywashy answer on #1.

I'd say it might be nice to include the larger group with the senario

running through my head of being able to use the fact that the NT's

would be outnumbered and any sort of hogwash they may come up would be

deludged with honest, factual replies.

When I first came to this forum, I went into the previous postings and

read all of them from begining to end. I did not do the same with the

other Fam forum unfortunately, so I can not comment on the problem of

head butting with obstinate AS family members. I will take the Mods

word on that and with that being said, I would have to say that it would

only serve to disenchant those here who daily must deal with a world

that doesn't seem to care and may cause them to leave. That would be

unacceptable.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Issue 1: A wishwashy Yes

Issue 2: No

For the small group who are willing to listen and learn the exchange of

information may be beneficial for both us and them. My reservations

have less to do with being misinterpreted, we have the ability to

clarify when necessary but the willingness of members now posting to

fully express themselves may be hampered with reservations. If a

sanctuary was made available for the members here who feel they need a

different outlet, perhaps this would be a viable solution. This is the

reason for my wishywashy answer on #1.

I'd say it might be nice to include the larger group with the senario

running through my head of being able to use the fact that the NT's

would be outnumbered and any sort of hogwash they may come up would be

deludged with honest, factual replies.

When I first came to this forum, I went into the previous postings and

read all of them from begining to end. I did not do the same with the

other Fam forum unfortunately, so I can not comment on the problem of

head butting with obstinate AS family members. I will take the Mods

word on that and with that being said, I would have to say that it would

only serve to disenchant those here who daily must deal with a world

that doesn't seem to care and may cause them to leave. That would be

unacceptable.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Hopefully this isn't a repeat and I remember everything I said the

first time. I wrote this long thoughtful post, and tried to post it

and Yahoo went down, what a pain.

Tom, this post is for you, but Im writting it here because I think

others could learn from it. I went from being a lurker to being a

regular poster to being a moderator, back to being a lurker/sometimes

poster again, just some back ground.

We have had our differences especially with me being the liberal I

am, but your always fair,and consistant, you run all of these forums

with a very even hand. You give everyone a second chance, sometimes a

third or fourth. You listen to people give them a chance to

logically describe their side of the issue, even if it is one

diametricly opposed to your views, and then explain to them calmly

where their logic is faulty, and your side of the issue logically and

calmly, even if they refuse to listen. I have seen you and Raven do

this numberous times, I have even joined in a few times, trying to

explain things a different way to help them get it. You go above and

beyond to help people. I don't know how you do it sometimes.

I even remember a time when a new member joined and a few of us

moderator me included thought this person was a troll, you had us

give this person many chances when we wanted to ban them. This

person is currently a good member of the forum. I certaintly can't

see anyone calling your fairness into question.

I would like to repeat something a very wise freind once told me.

Bottom line these are your forums, the decisions are yours to make

and you have to live with the ramifications. I appreciate you giving

us the opportunity to voice our opinions and to vote on this matter,

truly wanting and listening to our opinions, giving us the voice so

many of us are denied in the outside world. But bottom line the

decision is yours and I will fully suport whatever you decide to do.

Thank you for giving us a voice and THANK YOU !!!!!!! for just being

you.

Beth

> >

> > " In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

> > and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning

curve

> > on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and

were

> > taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or

mean-

> > spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

> > necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

> > take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

> > gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or

> do.) "

> >

> > A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and

> maybe

> > some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I

fear

> I

> > have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way

> recently.

> >

> > However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

> > anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views

but

> the

> > fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia

who

> were

> > tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

> > issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we

> could

> > do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

> >

> > The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that

I

> > purged insulted the people posting the facts and said

basically, " I

> > don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I

want

> > (even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

> >

> > One gets tired of it.

> >

> > It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive,

and

> my

> > opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only

a

> few

> > sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of

insensitive

> > ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family

> Forum

> > over here in any circumstance.

> >

> > Tom

> > Administrator

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hopefully this isn't a repeat and I remember everything I said the

first time. I wrote this long thoughtful post, and tried to post it

and Yahoo went down, what a pain.

Tom, this post is for you, but Im writting it here because I think

others could learn from it. I went from being a lurker to being a

regular poster to being a moderator, back to being a lurker/sometimes

poster again, just some back ground.

We have had our differences especially with me being the liberal I

am, but your always fair,and consistant, you run all of these forums

with a very even hand. You give everyone a second chance, sometimes a

third or fourth. You listen to people give them a chance to

logically describe their side of the issue, even if it is one

diametricly opposed to your views, and then explain to them calmly

where their logic is faulty, and your side of the issue logically and

calmly, even if they refuse to listen. I have seen you and Raven do

this numberous times, I have even joined in a few times, trying to

explain things a different way to help them get it. You go above and

beyond to help people. I don't know how you do it sometimes.

I even remember a time when a new member joined and a few of us

moderator me included thought this person was a troll, you had us

give this person many chances when we wanted to ban them. This

person is currently a good member of the forum. I certaintly can't

see anyone calling your fairness into question.

I would like to repeat something a very wise freind once told me.

Bottom line these are your forums, the decisions are yours to make

and you have to live with the ramifications. I appreciate you giving

us the opportunity to voice our opinions and to vote on this matter,

truly wanting and listening to our opinions, giving us the voice so

many of us are denied in the outside world. But bottom line the

decision is yours and I will fully suport whatever you decide to do.

Thank you for giving us a voice and THANK YOU !!!!!!! for just being

you.

Beth

> >

> > " In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

> > and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning

curve

> > on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and

were

> > taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or

mean-

> > spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

> > necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

> > take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

> > gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or

> do.) "

> >

> > A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and

> maybe

> > some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I

fear

> I

> > have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way

> recently.

> >

> > However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

> > anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views

but

> the

> > fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia

who

> were

> > tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

> > issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we

> could

> > do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

> >

> > The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that

I

> > purged insulted the people posting the facts and said

basically, " I

> > don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I

want

> > (even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

> >

> > One gets tired of it.

> >

> > It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive,

and

> my

> > opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only

a

> few

> > sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of

insensitive

> > ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family

> Forum

> > over here in any circumstance.

> >

> > Tom

> > Administrator

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hopefully this isn't a repeat and I remember everything I said the

first time. I wrote this long thoughtful post, and tried to post it

and Yahoo went down, what a pain.

Tom, this post is for you, but Im writting it here because I think

others could learn from it. I went from being a lurker to being a

regular poster to being a moderator, back to being a lurker/sometimes

poster again, just some back ground.

We have had our differences especially with me being the liberal I

am, but your always fair,and consistant, you run all of these forums

with a very even hand. You give everyone a second chance, sometimes a

third or fourth. You listen to people give them a chance to

logically describe their side of the issue, even if it is one

diametricly opposed to your views, and then explain to them calmly

where their logic is faulty, and your side of the issue logically and

calmly, even if they refuse to listen. I have seen you and Raven do

this numberous times, I have even joined in a few times, trying to

explain things a different way to help them get it. You go above and

beyond to help people. I don't know how you do it sometimes.

I even remember a time when a new member joined and a few of us

moderator me included thought this person was a troll, you had us

give this person many chances when we wanted to ban them. This

person is currently a good member of the forum. I certaintly can't

see anyone calling your fairness into question.

I would like to repeat something a very wise freind once told me.

Bottom line these are your forums, the decisions are yours to make

and you have to live with the ramifications. I appreciate you giving

us the opportunity to voice our opinions and to vote on this matter,

truly wanting and listening to our opinions, giving us the voice so

many of us are denied in the outside world. But bottom line the

decision is yours and I will fully suport whatever you decide to do.

Thank you for giving us a voice and THANK YOU !!!!!!! for just being

you.

Beth

> >

> > " In the earlier years of FAM, and when I was first diagnosed

> > and here every single day for almost a year, I saw a learning

curve

> > on the part of the mods where they tried so hard to be fair and

were

> > taken advantage of, not just by trolls but by closedminded or

mean-

> > spirited people. I saw them learn that quick action is sometimes

> > necessary, even at the risk of being viewed as unfair. (That's my

> > take on events and my interpretation of the explanations the mods

> > gave, but I admit I may not have seen things as the mods did or

> do.) "

> >

> > A belated apology. Many of those folks " got my goat " and I and

> maybe

> > some of the other mods responded immaturely at the time, and I

fear

> I

> > have responded to some of the parents in the FF the same way

> recently.

> >

> > However, what irked me in the early years on this forum more than

> > anything else was NOT the divergence on ethical and moral views

but

> the

> > fact that the whole forum was REQUESTED by folks from Aspergia

who

> were

> > tired of the exact same sort of squabbling over ethical and moral

> > issues. My hope was that if those issues were to be discussed, we

> could

> > do it civilly, with both sides presenting facts.

> >

> > The members that wound up staying posted facts. The members that

I

> > purged insulted the people posting the facts and said

basically, " I

> > don't care what the facts are, I have a RIGHT to do whatever I

want

> > (even if it is illegal) at the expense of everyone else. "

> >

> > One gets tired of it.

> >

> > It was causing distress among members who were more sensitive,

and

> my

> > opinion was and is that I would rather maintain a forum for only

a

> few

> > sensitive people than keep one open for a whole lot of

insensitive

> > ones. Which is why I may not invite the parents from the Family

> Forum

> > over here in any circumstance.

> >

> > Tom

> > Administrator

> >

>