Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 rferris, I have to respond here. I enjoy reading all your posts. I find you very intelligent, and I believe you have alot to offer this list. My son , who is 10 and dx with adhd and odd went through alot at school. He was failing and felt stupid.He didn't have to many friends. That;s one reason why we took him out to homeschool.He is the one I feel could be aspergers. My other 3 have autism and every time I take Robbie who is 5 out, and he acts up, I get so tired of people looking at me like I am a bad mother. One day, while out to eat, a lady called him a brat. I was so upset.I know besides my husband, i don't have to many friends either. Not to many people understand our kids, and there's no way we can take them to anyones house. i know most people with disabled kids are worrying always if they are doing the right thing for their kids and what the future holds. We are all trying to figure it all out and trying to survive, but you've been through it. Like you said, you are married, have a grown child, and you are here and an inspiration to us all. I admire your courage, you are a survivor, and basically, that's what we're all trying to do. I think you are very knowledgeable, and could help alot of people. Maybe this is your calling, to help others, because you have a wonderful way with words. (Don't even think about leaving us, or we'll come after you), lol. Keep on posting, God bless, Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 rferris, I have to respond here. I enjoy reading all your posts. I find you very intelligent, and I believe you have alot to offer this list. My son , who is 10 and dx with adhd and odd went through alot at school. He was failing and felt stupid.He didn't have to many friends. That;s one reason why we took him out to homeschool.He is the one I feel could be aspergers. My other 3 have autism and every time I take Robbie who is 5 out, and he acts up, I get so tired of people looking at me like I am a bad mother. One day, while out to eat, a lady called him a brat. I was so upset.I know besides my husband, i don't have to many friends either. Not to many people understand our kids, and there's no way we can take them to anyones house. i know most people with disabled kids are worrying always if they are doing the right thing for their kids and what the future holds. We are all trying to figure it all out and trying to survive, but you've been through it. Like you said, you are married, have a grown child, and you are here and an inspiration to us all. I admire your courage, you are a survivor, and basically, that's what we're all trying to do. I think you are very knowledgeable, and could help alot of people. Maybe this is your calling, to help others, because you have a wonderful way with words. (Don't even think about leaving us, or we'll come after you), lol. Keep on posting, God bless, Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Ha Ric, Me pretty selfish attitude perhaps, but I need the Aspies in my life. Can't you just be here, share your feelings, ask a question, respond to posts? I have learned most of people with AS and PDD-NOS about autism. Understand my beaut autikid more and more and even understand myself more ) I really miss aspies on other lists. That's why I joined the asperger_autism (well, THAT's history!! )) and now this one. On the Dutch list I join, are just a few Aspies left for a list especially for Aspergers has started there. I have two AS friends IRL. I stopped to figure out what kind of friendship we are having here. Just enjoying the communication, the humor, the wisdom, the questions... Maybe Ric, it helps if you tell what YOU need of a list, this list in particular. I think of this list as a group of virtual friends helping each other with a smile and sometimes a tear. We are all unique, you know. No aspie is the same... no kid is the same, auti or not... no parent is the same... And I LIKE THAT )) Just hang out, enjoy, poor out your heart, participate whenever you want.... and just be what you are: yourself. (ever so Dutch so maybe once in a while incomprehensible but always with a smile) Myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Ha Ric, Me pretty selfish attitude perhaps, but I need the Aspies in my life. Can't you just be here, share your feelings, ask a question, respond to posts? I have learned most of people with AS and PDD-NOS about autism. Understand my beaut autikid more and more and even understand myself more ) I really miss aspies on other lists. That's why I joined the asperger_autism (well, THAT's history!! )) and now this one. On the Dutch list I join, are just a few Aspies left for a list especially for Aspergers has started there. I have two AS friends IRL. I stopped to figure out what kind of friendship we are having here. Just enjoying the communication, the humor, the wisdom, the questions... Maybe Ric, it helps if you tell what YOU need of a list, this list in particular. I think of this list as a group of virtual friends helping each other with a smile and sometimes a tear. We are all unique, you know. No aspie is the same... no kid is the same, auti or not... no parent is the same... And I LIKE THAT )) Just hang out, enjoy, poor out your heart, participate whenever you want.... and just be what you are: yourself. (ever so Dutch so maybe once in a while incomprehensible but always with a smile) Myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 wrote >>>Me pretty selfish attitude perhaps, Selfish works for me. >>>but I need the Aspies in my life. And i need normals in mine. ;-) >>>Can't you just be here, share your feelings, ask a question, respond to >>>posts?... ....Just hang out, enjoy, poor out your heart, participate whenever you want.... >and just be what you are: yourself. Wellllll... Being myself is what gets me in trouble. I am quite capable of an angry tirade or a long winded piece of bombast. Believe it when i say that many have suffered boredom at my hands. Since i have no idea what people around me want i have to ask to find out. I can only hope they will tell me. Usually they don't(or they tell in a way that i don't understand). When interacting with people i need directions or a person who is very sociable and can take care of me and the conversation. I also tend to be direct and pointed in my observations. I have reduced people to tears with my opinions when perhaps i shouldn't have been so insistant. I must be careful or i will upset or offend someone. This means i have to stop and reread what was written then carefully edit and reread my reply. Then i send it off hoping i didn't offend. This is especially difficult when i disagree someone. You can bet that every sentence i write here takes 5- 10 minutes or more to write, and i am still not sure that i won't offend. Being myself and getting along with people is a complex matter and i'm not equipped to handle it. Here's a case in point. Two days ago i was walking my dogs in the ravine when i ran into a lady i like walking her's. As we stood talking her dog went off near a picnic table and did its business. Slowly, she walked over, looked at it and came back not having cleaned up. Now i had made my position on this matter clear a couple of times before (i don't like stepping in dog doo and i don't like my dogs eating it so please pick up) I didn't want to get angry so i quietly went over and cleaned up. I was feeling sad/disappointed and a little angry knowing anything i would say in this state would start a fight so i gathered my dogs and left without saying anything. Well today she was waiting for me. She stopped me and asked me what was wrong. I had decided to engage her (i could have turned around but it seemed like time to " face the music " ). I told her what she had done upset me and that i've explained this to her before. She didn't think this was important enough to be upset about (she has seen the world, bigger problems everywhere etc. etc.) More was said , then we parted company, neither of us satisfied. Well, we almost fought, but i didn't get my point across. I'm still angry and upset with her disregard. I don't know what to do, as there are very few people i can talk to and i don't like the idea of losing another one because of a disagreement. The choice seems to be either speak my mind and lose a friend or be quiet and angry but keep a friend i don't much feel like having. Net result, if i want people to talk to i can't be myself and speak freely. Exactly what ended my last two (of four ) long term friendships. Ric Ferris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 wrote >>>Me pretty selfish attitude perhaps, Selfish works for me. >>>but I need the Aspies in my life. And i need normals in mine. ;-) >>>Can't you just be here, share your feelings, ask a question, respond to >>>posts?... ....Just hang out, enjoy, poor out your heart, participate whenever you want.... >and just be what you are: yourself. Wellllll... Being myself is what gets me in trouble. I am quite capable of an angry tirade or a long winded piece of bombast. Believe it when i say that many have suffered boredom at my hands. Since i have no idea what people around me want i have to ask to find out. I can only hope they will tell me. Usually they don't(or they tell in a way that i don't understand). When interacting with people i need directions or a person who is very sociable and can take care of me and the conversation. I also tend to be direct and pointed in my observations. I have reduced people to tears with my opinions when perhaps i shouldn't have been so insistant. I must be careful or i will upset or offend someone. This means i have to stop and reread what was written then carefully edit and reread my reply. Then i send it off hoping i didn't offend. This is especially difficult when i disagree someone. You can bet that every sentence i write here takes 5- 10 minutes or more to write, and i am still not sure that i won't offend. Being myself and getting along with people is a complex matter and i'm not equipped to handle it. Here's a case in point. Two days ago i was walking my dogs in the ravine when i ran into a lady i like walking her's. As we stood talking her dog went off near a picnic table and did its business. Slowly, she walked over, looked at it and came back not having cleaned up. Now i had made my position on this matter clear a couple of times before (i don't like stepping in dog doo and i don't like my dogs eating it so please pick up) I didn't want to get angry so i quietly went over and cleaned up. I was feeling sad/disappointed and a little angry knowing anything i would say in this state would start a fight so i gathered my dogs and left without saying anything. Well today she was waiting for me. She stopped me and asked me what was wrong. I had decided to engage her (i could have turned around but it seemed like time to " face the music " ). I told her what she had done upset me and that i've explained this to her before. She didn't think this was important enough to be upset about (she has seen the world, bigger problems everywhere etc. etc.) More was said , then we parted company, neither of us satisfied. Well, we almost fought, but i didn't get my point across. I'm still angry and upset with her disregard. I don't know what to do, as there are very few people i can talk to and i don't like the idea of losing another one because of a disagreement. The choice seems to be either speak my mind and lose a friend or be quiet and angry but keep a friend i don't much feel like having. Net result, if i want people to talk to i can't be myself and speak freely. Exactly what ended my last two (of four ) long term friendships. Ric Ferris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Re: Myself Net result, if i want people to talk to i can't be myself and speak freely.Exactly what ended my last two (of four ) long term friendships.Ric Ferris Ha Ric, I don't know the ins and outs of your lost friendships, of course, but do they realize you experience and show your emotions differently that NT-people? Maybe just a rhetorical question.... (meaning well )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Re: Myself Net result, if i want people to talk to i can't be myself and speak freely.Exactly what ended my last two (of four ) long term friendships.Ric Ferris Ha Ric, I don't know the ins and outs of your lost friendships, of course, but do they realize you experience and show your emotions differently that NT-people? Maybe just a rhetorical question.... (meaning well )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hi >>>>>I don't know the ins and outs of your lost friendships, of course, but >>>>>do they realize you experience and show your emotions differently that >>>>>NT-people?<<<< Not sure i know what you mean. NT? I'll asume it means something like normal for now. Firstly, they were both very unusual people, every bit as odd as me. If my social skills were better i might not have even met these two. Second, i wasn't aware that i experience and show emotions differently. This is a new idea to me. Could you explain what you mean? I know that i read emotions okay, at least the simple obvious ones. But i dont understand what they mean. I feel emotions directly from someone much like feeling the heat of the sun. Often the behaviour i see doesn't match. I cannot in any circumstance connect the two. Constantly people are showing fear or anger and behaving like the other. People pass me as i walk my dogs and many are afraid. If they cringe i feel compelled to show them how well behaved my dogs are. But if they smile, i get angry because i think they are lying to me and if they walk casually by or act tough i hope that they are scared and don't move out of the way. Like i have a secret war with liars. I take it that what they do is normal. Like white lies. It drives me buggy if i think about it too much. This incongruency is so frustrating to me i would rather not have to deal with people at all. I mean it. As a child, it was mostly frightening. Visiting cousins was like entering another universe where all the rules were different and aunts and uncles were strange, cold , frightening monsters. This was when they smiled! People are so tricky, i have no idea what they want. How do people see me? i don't know. My wife will tell me and sometimes i'll understand after some discussion. My own behaviour and emotions may seem odd to someone else since most of the time i react not to what is being directed at me but to the incongruency i sense in thier behaviour and emotional signals. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hi >>>>>I don't know the ins and outs of your lost friendships, of course, but >>>>>do they realize you experience and show your emotions differently that >>>>>NT-people?<<<< Not sure i know what you mean. NT? I'll asume it means something like normal for now. Firstly, they were both very unusual people, every bit as odd as me. If my social skills were better i might not have even met these two. Second, i wasn't aware that i experience and show emotions differently. This is a new idea to me. Could you explain what you mean? I know that i read emotions okay, at least the simple obvious ones. But i dont understand what they mean. I feel emotions directly from someone much like feeling the heat of the sun. Often the behaviour i see doesn't match. I cannot in any circumstance connect the two. Constantly people are showing fear or anger and behaving like the other. People pass me as i walk my dogs and many are afraid. If they cringe i feel compelled to show them how well behaved my dogs are. But if they smile, i get angry because i think they are lying to me and if they walk casually by or act tough i hope that they are scared and don't move out of the way. Like i have a secret war with liars. I take it that what they do is normal. Like white lies. It drives me buggy if i think about it too much. This incongruency is so frustrating to me i would rather not have to deal with people at all. I mean it. As a child, it was mostly frightening. Visiting cousins was like entering another universe where all the rules were different and aunts and uncles were strange, cold , frightening monsters. This was when they smiled! People are so tricky, i have no idea what they want. How do people see me? i don't know. My wife will tell me and sometimes i'll understand after some discussion. My own behaviour and emotions may seem odd to someone else since most of the time i react not to what is being directed at me but to the incongruency i sense in thier behaviour and emotional signals. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Re: Myself Hi >>>>>I don't know the ins and outs of your lost friendships, of course, but>>>>>do they realize you experience and show your emotions differently that>>>>>NT-people?<<<< Not sure i know what you mean. NT? I'll asume it means something likenormal for now. >>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<< Ric Oops sorry Ric, ) NT stands for neuro typical )). I have been over the discussions of what is 'normal' for who is really? ) My aspie friends and I use shortened words like AS, ASD and NT so we now what we are talking about.... [bTW: just for fun: check out this web site. It is written by an aspie, talking about NT and even has a NT-test to do. Well I sure had lots of LOL:o) http://isnt.autistics.org/] Okay, back to serious business.... Ric, about what you asked and said further: >>>>>Second, i wasn't aware that i experience and show emotions differently.This is a new idea to me. Could you explain what you mean?<<<<<< You know I am Dutch. So sometimes I will use wrong words in English, or doesn't have the real touch over English writing. I have to take some time to get into you question and what you said about emotions. So I get back to you later about this. Okay? Really want to get into this... Now getting ready for the Easter lunch, feast at Ruud's school. Till later!! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 Re: Myself Hi >>>>>>>>>>cut<<<<<<<<<<< Second, i wasn't aware that i experience and show emotions differently.This is a new idea to me. Could you explain what you mean? >>>>>>>>>>>cut<<<<<<<<<<Ric Ha Ric, You asked me what I meant with 'showing and experiencing your emotions differently than NT's', but I think you just came with the answer yourself!! Mind this : I was at a symposium 'Autism and Emotions' just last Tuesday, and I must have put all my 'knowledge' of that interesting day in just one line, I guess. Please let me explain... And please NOTE: I am not trying to judge you Ric, Freestone, or anybody else. I just want to understand/place the emotions of my son and my aspie friends. These are a few lines I have heard at the symposium. Speaker was Vermeulen. He is a Belgium man, expert on autism. ASD and NT-people like his books for being so clear about autism.... Research (Ricks 1976) with 3 groups of non-verbal kids. NT-kids, mentally disabled kids and ASD kids. Found out that there is a universal language for expressing emotions, and found out that the ASD kids don't use that language. So ASD people use a different language to express emotions. That to begin with... Explanations about ASD people, express their emotions extremely compared to NT people : * More negative than positive emotions; (because ASD persons have more frustrations and 'threats' in life); * (Extreme) mood changes; (how intelligent the person is, the reactions are like toddlers do; the social motivation is missing to temper these mood changes, like waiting is very difficult for a ASD person); * Emotional immaturity. Sounds not nice but meaning this: An ASD person doesn't hold in like the NT have learned to do. Vermeulen says that 'emotional authenticity' is a much better word for it. * The hypersensitivity and hyposensitivity of ASD people; certain sounds, touches, sights are interefering/annoying or even painful. Therefore of course ASD people react sooner and extremer than NT's. Donna (having ASD herself) talks about this with these words : 'overfiring, underfiring, and misfiring: * Sometimes an ASD person is so overwhelmed with signals and has to put so much energy in that, that there is no room anymore for emotions. Not because of apathy but because it is just too much! Underfiring... * Or an ASD person can so much be overwhelmed by one little detail, that the person cannot put into perspective anymore. Overfiring... * And the emotions and thoughts cannot be separated. For instance: anger is not only emotion, it is also adrenaline : heart is beating more rapidly, you feel it in your belly muscle tension, and your whole body wants to RUN AWAY. But all these body signals also appear when you are in love: heart is beating more rapidly, belly muscle tension, and you must not run AWAY but walk TOWARDS the person. While the brain is connecting wrongly....... Donna was very attracted to this guy, and she felt all those body signals, but she was so afraid that she slapped the young man. Misfiring..... Sad but true. So emotions (can) confuse ASD people. Recognizing emotions is very difficult for ASD people. * Coping with anger, fear, joy and grief, yes okay (like you say the obvious one). But there are too much difference in nuances! * Recognizing emotions sometimes os only recognizing patterns (in the face). * It is not only the face, but also body language, voice and that together is too much for ASD people who respond to details. * When NT-people would react in slow motion, and the ASD person could press the pause button, would be better for ASD. * The body language, voice and face is just the outside. But the 'theory of mind' is very difficult. Like a tear on a cheek : is a drop of water.... meaning sadness, joy, peeling onions, sand and contactlens in eye..... ASD people are so very REAL in emotions! They are very fair. Therefore vulnerable and naive.... Vermeulen has said a lot this day. This was just a part of it. I truly hope I haven't hurt anyone with this. I mean good ) And I hope I have answered your question with this, Ric! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2000 Report Share Posted April 22, 2000 Hi I have edited your post in an effort to understand your words and added some questions and remarks. I hope to convey to you what i understand and what i don't >>>>And please NOTE: I am not trying to judge you Ric, Freestone, or >>>>anybody else. Even if you were i would carefully consider your words then carefully consider my response. I use a 'three strike' rule before i judge a person 'out'. Works well for me. I am also more trusting of people who give freely of themselves like yourself. >>>>there is a universal language for expressing emotions, ASD kids don't use that language. ASD people use a different language to express emotions. ASD people, express their emotions extremely compared to NT people : ????what is the language, what is the different language???? I have read Eckman on the matter of facial expressions in emotion. >>>>* More negative than positive emotions; * (Extreme) mood changes; the reactions are like toddlers; the social motivation is missing to temper these mood changes, * Emotional immaturity; An ASD person doesn't hold in like the NT have learned to do. 'emotional authenticity' is a much better word for it. * Hypersensitivity and hyposensitivity; ASD people react sooner and with more intensity than NT's. certain sounds, touches, sights are interefering/annoying or even painful. ????Are thse points related to the 'language'???? Does this relate to my question of how i experience emotions differently???? I don't see how this is experiencing differently. I fit the above points quite well. I am usually negative. I have often wondered if i was bipolar. I am quick to respond emotionally and intense. I have hypersensitivities to light, sound and touch. 'overfiring, underfiring, and misfiring: Underfiring... overwhelmed with signals and has no room anymore for emotions. Overfiring... overwhelmed by one little detail, cannot put into perspective Misfiring.....mistaking one's own physiological signals for the wrong emotion ????so how does the ASD person act when doing these???? >Recognizing emotions is very difficult for ASD people. >* Coping with anger, fear, joy and grief, yes okay (like you say the >obvious one). But there are too much difference in nuances! >* Recognizing emotions sometimes os only recognizing patterns (in the face). >* It is not only the face, but also body language, voice and that together >is too much for ASD people who respond to details. >* When NT-people would react in slow motion, and the ASD person could >press the pause button, would be better for ASD. >* The body language, voice and face is just the outside. But the 'theory >of mind' is very difficult. Like a tear on a cheek : is a drop of >water.... meaning sadness, joy, peeling onions, sand and contactlens in >eye..... > >ASD people are so very REAL in emotions! >They are very fair. >Therefore vulnerable and naive.... I'm having trouble understanding any of this. It doesn't fit together. I don't know how your points fit into an arguement. I'm having trouble finding questions to ask you that might help me understand. I must say that i'm having trouble with the idea that my emotions are somehow different. I believe i feel the same as NTs. That my emotions are appropriate to the situation. That i sense other peoples emotions correctly. But emotions are the result of how you read a situation and emotions are the fuel for behavior. It seems to me that ASDs are primarily perceptual disorders -too much noise- and all the following autistic behaviors both cognative and emotional are normal responses to what is perceived. Too much data leading to cognative overload which is reacted to emotionally rather than the situation. ( Some one is lying to me, i sense the conflicting information, i can't resolve it cognatively, i get confused, start feeling afraid not at the liar but my confusion making me vunerable to the lie. Enough for now. Ric Ferris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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