VB

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know of Verbal Behavior workshops or training coming up

in the Miami area? Thanks Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie,

I'd like to clear up some misconceptions you have regarding VB.

First, VB is a form of ABA, just as Lovaas-style therapy is a form of ABA.

That is, VB=ABA.

Secondly, it has been our experience at The Mariposa School that the

children are learning MUCH faster in VB programs than they did in

traditional Lovaas programs. And better yet, they are generalizing and

retaining those new skills

And finally, there IS definitely data with VB programs.

As the mother of a child who made little progress during 5 years of a Lovaas

style program, I should tell you that I was quite skeptical when I heard

about VB. I wondered how they could analyze progress without taking data

on every SD, and I wondered how you knew for sure that the kids were really

learning with " errorless teaching techniques " .

What I learned from Vince Carbone is that while data is important, IT SHOULD

NEVER GET IN THE WAY OF TEACHING. This was a big problem in our

traditional Lovaas-style program. You have two choices -- you either take

the data while teaching, or you tell the child to " go play " and try to

remember everything that was done. In both cases, you are taking your

attention away from the child to record data.

And after 5 years of this style of data recording, I really had nothing to

show for it. Because the bottom line was, NOBODY ever analyzed every single

data point taken. I did have massive amounts of paper, most of which I

believe is only useful if you are going to try to prove something to a

school district. Having also tried the due process route, I can also

assure you that all of that effort to record every data point was wasted.

So, step back and ask yourself, " What is the purpose of taking data? " The

answer is, to determine if the child knows the material. As Vince put it,

the child either knows it (in which case he can correctly answer without a

prompt) or he doesn't know it (in which case he needs a prompt). If he

knows the answer, we don't need to spend the day teaching it (or asking

about it). If he doesn't know the answer, we need to use errorless teaching

techniques (most to least prompting) combined with fluency training to make

sure that the answer is correct tomorrow when we ask it again.

At Mariposa, we created a data collection system (called the Pocket-ABLLS

and Pocket-FFC) which has been working very well for the kids in our school.

All of the goals are on laminated cards that fit in the instructor's pocket.

(Thus, they can be used anywhere -- in NET, on the playground etc. -- not

just at the table.) The instructor circles " I " for independent response, or

" P " for prompted response. The independent responses are put aside for the

day, and the other targets are then taught. At the end of the day (when

the instructor has finished working with the child), the data is transferred

to the notebook. Then we analyze progress and pick new goals when

appropriate.

This system has been working very well for us because it keeps everybody

very organized. I honestly believe that this is one of the keys to a

successful program. Obviously, good teaching techniques are the most

important, but having a system set up so that the instructors always know

what they are supposed to be doing helps a great deal. The kids are moving

so quickly that we have to update their ABLLS every month, instead of every

3 - 4 months as suggested!

You can read more about VB on our website www.MariposaSchool.org. At the

site you will find a lot of useful information on the " Training Materials "

page. This includes our training manual for instructors, a presentation I

gave about VB at the Autism One conference in Chicago last May, and more

descriptive information about our data collection system.

P.S. My son began speaking, at age 7, within 6 months of starting VB!

(Even after 5 years of a Lovaas-style program, he was completely non-verbal

when I made the switch to VB.)

s (Cary, NC)

persistentC@...

President and Executive Director

The Mariposa School for Children with Autism

www.MariposaSchool.org

919-461-0600

[ ] VB

Hi!

I just read your posting. We live in Carbone territory and

do not believe in it. To incoporate some into the program is

okay but the problem we have seen is that there is NO data

and no statistics on it. My daughter has twin 3.7 fraternal

boys and has an in home ABA program going on. The boys have

been making progress but she has tried to throw extra programs

at them and they seem to get confused, it is maybe too much

for them to comprehend. She believes in ABA. She has several

experts on this and the conclusion is " show me the data " .

It seems that we have heard the children are not learning with

the VB. I have heard that when anyone goes to Carbones conferences

they are deeply impressed but again, NO DATA to back it up.

Where are you located? How do you feel you are doing with it?

You can e-mail me at a.paul1@....

Would be interested in chatting with you about this. OF course there

is always a doubt, " what if? " But when I approach anyone with ABA

they say " show me the statistics or data "

Angie

[Guest guest]

> Would be interested in chatting with you about this. OF course

there

> is always a doubt, " what if? " But when I approach anyone with ABA

> they say " show me the statistics or data "

>

> Angie

Here is an exchange I had in another forum (the other writers

have " > " in front of their text):

>How does a Verbal Behavior model differ from a Lovaas or discrete

trial

>model?

>

>A traditional ABA model such as the one pioneered by Dr. Ivaar Lovaas

>stresses compliance training, imitation skills and building

receptive language for

>young, non-vocal early learners. The VB model, on the other hand,

looks first

>at what the child wants and then teaches the child how to request

(in VB terms,

>how to mand).

The perceived differences of ABA and Verbal Behavior

There has been a lot written in recent years with respect to ABA and

Verbal Behavior. Much of the information has appeared on the web.

On the positive side, the information has been spread quickly, and

with respect to Verbal Behavior, a new generation is now aware of

Skinner's analysis of language. On the negative side, some

misinformation has been passed along just as quickly, and programs

that have been developed from the study of Verbal Behavior have been

mistaken as a new science or a new approach to teaching. These

issues should be explored as they have important implications

regarding the advancement and promotion of behavioral science and the

ability of consumers to obtain efficacious treatment by qualified

individuals.

The first point to consider is that behavior analysis has been

concerned not only with what people do, but also with what they " say "

(verbal behavior also applies to modes of communication other than

speech). Then what about programs identified as " verbal behavior

programs? " Well, they are concerned not only with what people say,

but also with what people do. So what, if any, distinctions are

there? The following represents some of what has been disseminated

via the web regarding what are thought to be the distinctions:

> " …most AVB therapists are inclined to

>(a) do less of their teaching in a classroom-like setting and more

of it throughout the child's natural environment,

>( make greater use of errorless teaching, and

>© to a greater degree, mix and vary the different teaching targets

and tasks. "

It is difficult to address these assertions as one would first have

to accept the premise that there is such a thing as an AVB therapist,

and that there is something different called an ABA therapist. To

date, I have not been able to find any references to " verbal behavior

therapists or applied verbal behavior therapists " in any behavior

analytic texts. Furthermore, the authors of the book cited most

frequently, on listserves, in connection to applied verbal behavior

(Sundberg & Partington), and who run a school providing behavior

analytic services with attention to Skinner's analysis of language,

do not mention professional positions with such a title anywhere in

their book, nor on their website. On their site, they write, " We

have several positions available for experienced and enthusiastic

behavior analysts… " This is the accepted title of practitioners of

applied behavior analysis. Behavior analysts are the individuals

that provide the direct services and consultation for these

programs. AVB therapist or AVB consultant are terms that have been

used by some practitioners, but possibly may be used to signal to

consumers that the practitioner has an interest in Skinner's analysis

of language and/or some formal study or familiarity with specific

agencies' curricula. The titles are, however, unregulated and can be

used by anyone. Some of the unintended consequences of using these

titles have been: The idea that a new science has emerged, the idea

that these practitioners are better suited to address language issues

than other behavior analysts not using the titles, the difficulty in

finding behavior analysts that have used the curricula commonly

associated with this movement, and what I feel is potentially the

most important issue—the difficulty some consumers have in

discriminating those individuals who are qualified from those who are

not.

With respect to the setting in which instruction is delivered, and

the types of prompting systems used, different clinicians have

different clinical preferences. However, whether one has identified

a program as ABA or AVB, behavior analysts should not align

themselves with a single approach to teaching. The differences in

the ways in which individuals respond to environmental arrangements

preclude using a single approach indiscriminately. A unifying

dimension in behavior analysis is collecting empirical evidence in

such a way that one can validate the strategies used for each person.

The data collected in behavior analytic programs are to be turned

into pictures and used to make timely teaching decisions. The data

represent what we could see or hear at the time the person was

behaving. The quantified record is something that can then be

organized to tell the story of what a person was doing under some set

of conditions. When making a record, one wants to have the most

complete and accurate information possible. The data should show the

changes to a person's behavior as a result of the different things

that are tried. Some measures are blunter while other measures are

more sensitive. When measuring behavior, there are considerations to

make other than the sensitivity of the measure; especially in applied

settings. Typically, we want to select the most sensitive measure

possible, as well as to be able to perform all necessary teaching

duties. Again, each situation is unique, and decisions based on what

is feasible need to be made. However, these decisions do not result

in one solution, as is implied by the following:

> " Speaking as an educator who has collected data in both ways I must

say that for quality teaching >probe data is much better. "

As was stated earlier, in behavioral science, one wants to capture as

complete, as possible, a record of a learner's behavior. When one

selects a particular dimension of behavior to collect, then one has

simultaneously made a decision that other dimensions are not as

important, or can be ignored. This is a judgement that may or may

not be borne out over time. As one example of the implications of

how one measures behavior, if one decides to collect information on

how frequently tantrums occur, then one has also decided that

collecting information on how long the tantrums occur is not as

important. But imagine 10 one-minute tantrums becoming one 20-minute

tantrum. Although the frequency may have gone from 10 to 1 (what

could look like wonderful progress), ten minutes of tantrum behavior

is now twenty minutes; a doubling, or worsening. When

collecting " probe data " (i.e., data collected occasionally), the

schedule on which the data are collected may be a good enough

representation of what occurs at other times (note: the degree to

which the data are representative should not be judged by memory), or

it may leave one with the impression that things are fine when they

are not, or that things are not well when they are really just fine.

By simplifying data collection procedures, more people may be

inclined to collect some sort of record—and that's a good thing.

However, it will undoubtedly be the case that that record will not be

good enough for some learning situations, and something different

should be done—and can be done, because the field is not aligned to

any one method of data collection; just as it is not aligned to any

one style or method of teaching.

The teaching styles and methods can become a part of a curriculum.

Procedures shown to be effective with many learners are selected.

Skill sequences are sometimes carefully selected because they too

have been shown to help aid in student learning. Behavior analysts

should be familiar with curricula that have been validated for a

variety of learners. Knowledge of the curricula in combination with

the tools of behavioral science has been shown to be a highly

effective way to educate students of all abilities. However,

defining the practitioner by the curricula used introduces

unregulated and currently meaningless titles, it obfuscates the

science that is the foundation of the teaching, and it can lead to

practitioners attempting to fit students to curricula and blaming the

students when there is failure.

The curricula are guides for what and how to teach. They are not

different approaches known as ABA and AVB. They provide suggestions

and guidelines to aid in the development of effective treatment and

education for the issues of importance of various people. The

science provides us with tools to help us see whether or not the

things that we do are actually helping the people we are trying to

help.

Warm regards,

[Guest guest]

You have received many excellent replies but I wanted to add some

information about the research on VB...

You are aware of the research published by Dr. Lovaas. It is significant

because it evaluated a set of teaching procedures for children with autism.

The individual procedures that Dr. Lovaas used had, for the most part, at

least some research to support them. The individual procedures that Dr.

Carbone discusses in his workshops also have, for the most part, research to

support them. So the only difference is that there isn't a study on the use

of the procedures as a whole program.

I know that there are people who are trying to conduct research on

procedures as a whole but it is a very difficult endeavor. There are many

factors that can influence the results so the procedures have to be

carefully chosen. It is also very time consuming and expensive.

Also, a research study on the whole program isn't necessary as long as there

is research on the procedures and decisions to change the program are based

on data. I think that having a study on the whole program could actually be

detrimental because people seeking to replicate the results may not

individualize the program for the kids. I think we have already seen this

with " Lovaas style ABA " .

The bottom line is that procedures used should be based in empirical, peer

reviewed research and tailored to the needs of the child. If you have a

program that is doing this, it is called ABA... NOT Lovaas or VB.

I would be happy to clarify further if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

Everyone Can Learn

e Quinby

Behavior Consultant

e@...

tel: 215-766-3832

www.autismbehaviorconsult.com

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[ ] VB

Hi!

I just read your posting. We live in Carbone territory and

do not believe in it. To incoporate some into the program is

okay but the problem we have seen is that there is NO data

and no statistics on it. My daughter has twin 3.7 fraternal

boys and has an in home ABA program going on. The boys have

been making progress but she has tried to throw extra programs

at them and they seem to get confused, it is maybe too much

for them to comprehend. She believes in ABA. She has several

experts on this and the conclusion is " show me the data " .

It seems that we have heard the children are not learning with

the VB. I have heard that when anyone goes to Carbones conferences

they are deeply impressed but again, NO DATA to back it up.

Where are you located? How do you feel you are doing with it?

You can e-mail me at a.paul1@....

Would be interested in chatting with you about this. OF course there

is always a doubt, " what if? " But when I approach anyone with ABA

they say " show me the statistics or data "

Angie