Re: Students urged to stand up to bullies

[Guest guest]

>

> > mimi says--> I ignored everyone, I did have 1 or 2 people I would

> talk

> > to I kept myself same by knowing they were all like animals and

> pretty

>

mine was 31 years ago, I actually ignored being spit at(not any easy

task) Like I said I told myself that books were real and people

werent. Being bullied is not a good way to life. I was punched too

(that time I just ran home) 3 of them and all boys. If I was old

enough to drive a car I would have run them over. I am not saying my

way was better but I made teasing me no fun. I felt that doing that

meant I had outlasted then but it did serve to make me seem more than a

bit odd and later a target for boys(as I was on some level unreachable)

But i was vunerable. (it was not a fun or safe way to live) for a long

time I was angry, couldn't make sense of the world suffered anxiety

attacks

[Guest guest]

>

> By the way, that same year, the arch-bully (that I mentioned before)

> socked me in the stomach and " knocked the wind out of me " while we

were

> lining up at the classroom door waiting to go somewhere - and that

> happened when the teacher was IN the room, no less. I had been just

> standing there, just lining up with the others, not speaking to

anyone

> (that I can recall) - at least, certainly not to him. I think it was

> this incident that drove the teacher to make sure that he and I

didn't

> end up in the same class the next year.

>

yep grade school stunk no more grade school for me and I am way

less tolerant for anyone doing it to my children. I have no problem

facing those bullies(but still not good at helping me)

[Guest guest]

>

> Ah, telling those being bullied, " Just keep away from them! " is such

> a nice Disneyland bit of advice that has very little bearing in

> reality, and reality was being unable to avoid bullies drove me to

To be fair, I wasn't trying to go as far as saying that Raven was

suggesting something preposterous or anything - just that I wondered

how it was possible and wondered if things were different these days. I

think Raven must have been meaning this in a general sort of way,

since, the more I think about it, no one can just stay away 100% of the

time and I'm sure she realizes that. I think I was taking what she was

saying too literally at first.

[Guest guest]

" My son has been told to inform an adult/teacher at school if he is

being hurt and yet often such will happen in the playground and he has

told me that the playground staff say things like 'Stop telling tales'

and therefore do not listen to him :-( Obviously this frustrates him

more - he has been told not to hurt back, he has been told to tell an

adult/teacher and yet such do not always listen to him. Sadly his

frustrations lead him to self harming :-( he feels it is his only

outlet left to him. "

Yes, but one advantage to him telling the adult/teacher is that if he

tells YOU he went to the adult/teacher and the adult/teacher did

nothing, you can follow up and make a record of the conversation for

future use against the school.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" My son has learned that to say something to an adult leads to being

outcast and shunned, when he holds back from telling the adults what

happened he eventually will explode from keeping his anger stuffed. "

Yep, but if he should be severely bullied and it is finally witnessed,

records of previous problems will come in handy for taking care of the

perpetrators in that a pattern can be seen, and previously dismissed

offenses reinstated.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" In the situation I'm talking about, I was like a sitting duck. As

soon

as the teacher would leave the room, several of them would " start up "

by saying my name loudly coupled with rude comments, then they'd be

joined by others to where it was several people. Some would even walk

up to my desk, sometimes in a group, saying rude things or gesturing.

Kind of hard to ignore when it's in your face. But maybe teachers

don't

leave the room nowadays as they did back then - I don't know. That was

around 35 years ago, so perhaps things have changed. "

Stuff like this happened to me too. The teachers initially did not

believe me when I tol, but eventually, the bullies started picking on

a new kid and the way that kid was being picked on was similar to how

I was being picked on, and so then they believed me.

Although they still did not do much to stop the bullying.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

>

> Stuff like this happened to me too. The teachers initially did not

> believe me when I tol, but eventually, the bullies started picking on

> a new kid and the way that kid was being picked on was similar to how

> I was being picked on, and so then they believed me.

>

> Although they still did not do much to stop the bullying.

>

>

> Administrator

>

I may be the only one here but my father said to hit them back(poke

them in the eyes and fight dirty) he even showed me how. My mother

said to outsmart them. My parents knew,about my being bullied,they

weren't really proactive. They left me to deal with it but I did tell

them. Neither of my parents knew what they were doing (having children)

I know this is a touchy subject because many of us were bullied and hurt

(duh) by the bulling but what pragmatic advice would you give to a 10

year old, 12, year old 15 year old.

in my case Ravi will likely go to school till 22. I know that in the

future he may or may not be physically bullied but he will very likely

be mentally bullied (because he will be unaware of a danger or even

that he broke a law) Well, he could be talked into things(now) and I

am guessing for a while into the future this will be true.

I am asking because we should come up with useful ways that we can

protect the next group of aspies to deal and survive bullying.

Did anyone learn to use bullying for anything that was later a positive?

[Guest guest]

My parents would tell me not to fight if possible, but if I had to, then fight. Well, that was more my father's side of it anyone, and was about the only support he ever provided. I didn't fight much anyway since I was invariably the smallest boy in class and my odds of survival were better if I didn't get into that kind of trouble.

I may be the only one here but my father said to hit them back(poke them in the eyes and fight dirty) he even showed me how. My mother said to outsmart them. My parents knew,about my being bullied,they weren't really proactive. They left me to deal with it but I did tell them. Neither of my parents knew what they were doing (having children)Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

This happened a couple of times in high school. I don't really want to give details, but it stopped after I hurt one of the guys who was bothering me and plain knocked out another one. Well, it mostly stopped. The longer term students knew to leave me alone, but each year there were new ones who would bother me, but never enough that I could legitimately hurt them for it. Besides, by then I had rank (it was a military school)and if I got into a scrum I'd get demoted, and that would have been a greater shame than putting up with an idiot now and then.

PS: I'm not suggesting busting people up BTW. I was lucky to get away with the couple of things I did and today someone would probably be hauled off on criminal charges.

In the situation I'm talking about, I was like a sitting duck. As soon as the teacher would leave the room, several of them would "start up" by saying my name loudly coupled with rude comments, then they'd be joined by others to where it was several people. Some would even walk up to my desk, sometimes in a group, saying rude things or gesturing. Kind of hard to ignore when it's in your face. But maybe teachers don't leave the room nowadays as they did back then - I don't know. That was around 35 years ago, so perhaps things have changed.Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

That's how it was around here for me. The kids I grew up with pretty much turned against me when I started going to boarding school. So, weekends home, holidays and summer were mostly spent indoors keeping away from the 4 of them. They thought it great sport to gang up on me if I was caught outside or to do things to draw me out, like tear up things outside or hurt my dogs. It caused me a lot of anxiety and all too.

It really didn't help either that all the adults would just say, "They are treating you like a brother." Well, maybe so, but those boys were sadistic and evil, but the parents wouldn't hear of it. I saw the oldest brother once force the middle brother to drink out of the basement toilet, one they would urinate is and not flush until the whole basement reeked. Middle brother did something to big brother while resisting and big brother took a filthy razor blade out of the medicine cabinet and cut his brother's finger to the bone with it. He ordered me to go get salt from the kitchen and that boy was so demonic (not to mention much bigger and faster than me) that I did. While he was busy pouring that into his brother's wound, and then clamping his hand over it and squeezing and grinding it, I ran home. That's just one of the stories. The parents didn't seem to care because they never really did anything about that or the other things that went on.

If that was what they called treating each other like brothers, I was glad to be an only child.

But i was vunerable. (it was not a fun or safe way to live) for a long time I was angry, couldn't make sense of the world suffered anxiety attacksGet trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

School in general was problematic for me. I know it sounds cliche, but being the little guy really stinks. It wasn't so bad because I always went to private schools until college. At least there discipline was enforced, but at home it was more of a trial. It was a good thing that I went to military school where things were much more orderly and the rules clear and enforced. A regular public school would have been too much and I would probably have dropped out before I did something dreadful.

College was my first taste of public school and it wasn't fun. At the orientation, the bleachers were packed, except for an area around me where no one would sit. Some other things went on there, but I won't say. Another part of the orientation was recruiting speeches by the frats and sororities and clubs. A bunch of frat guys were sitting at their table close enough that I could hear them making jokes about me and all that. One of them came up later and asked if I wanted to join, I'm sure he just came over because I was the only person still sitting in his seat and not checking things out (had to wait for the group to move on). I told him no and he wasn't put of and didn't try to convince me like he did some of the others.

As I was, I didn't stay overly long there, about a semester and half. There were a couple of unpleasant happenings, like the time this idiot tried to steal the glasses off my face but I decked him for it (which, of course, made me the bully). I did go back some years later and didn't have so much of a problem.

yep grade school stunk no more grade school for me and I am way less tolerant for anyone doing it to my children. I have no problem facing those bullies(but still not good at helping me)Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

Ignore them was the advice I got too, and that only made them worse because it became a challenge to see how much they would have to push to get a reaction out of me. I ended up having to do some drastic things too to get a measure of peace from them.

In college, I had to take out a couple of guys to get a measure of peace. When I went back, that wasn't so much of a problem because they could see I was an older student and I guess that made me off limits. They talked behind my back and sometimes made snide comments, but they never got in my face.

In a message dated 5/20/2008 9:45:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

Ah, telling those being bullied, "Just keep away from them!" is such a nice Disneyland bit of advice that has very little bearing in reality, and reality was being unable to avoid bullies drove me to do something rather drastic at around the age of 10, because I couldn't avoid bullies who'd beat on me on the way to/from school: I looked up their address in the school directory, and proceeded to walk over to their house (at the far limits of the school's boundaries) and demand they come out, clearly indicating I wasn't wanting to play ball.Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

But which could be reality if there was no compulsory school. That's

the challenge to maske - that following the advice implies an

entitlement not to go to school.

>

> Ah, telling those being bullied, " Just keep away from them! " is such

> a nice Disneyland bit of advice that has very little bearing in

> reality,

[Guest guest]

IN this day and age, you really need to have an education. Not college necessarily, though it helps if you are looking for a job and not making one of your own, though even then some business classes can really help. What should be demanded is that education be quality education and that bullying be stopped in the schools. It would also help to have a return to vocational and college prep high schools. That would weed out a great many of the bullies to the VoTech schools and the ones they would be bullying over to the prep schools.

But which could be reality if there was no compulsory school. That's the challenge to maske - that following the advice implies an entitlement not to go to school. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

This is a disengaged " adult. " What you need is an adult willing to

take the time and energy to find out what happened and respond

accordingly. Sometimes it's not too serious and the response can be

giving advice to the child (or asking the child questions and

coaching the child in a matter-of-fact way, helping the child

discover his or her own solution). But sometimes the bullying

behavior is pretty doggone serious, and should be so taken by the

adult.

-Doug

> One staff member actually said to my son, " Nobody likes a

tattletale. "

>

> > Yet sadly I know that this does not always work. My son has been

told

> > to inform an adult/teacher at school if he is being hurt and yet

> > often such will happen in the playground and he has told me that

the

> > playground staff say things like 'Stop telling tales' and

therefore

> > do not listen to him :-( Obviously this frustrates him more - he

has

> > been told not to hurt back, he has been told to tell an

adult/teacher

> > and yet such do not always listen to him. Sadly his frustrations

lead

> > him to self harming :-( he feels it is his only outlet left to

him.

>

>

> One staff member actually said to my son, " Nobody likes a

tattletale. "

> The method used to resolve disputes boils down to taking all

children

> involved to be interviewed by the Vice Principle. This enevitably

leads

> to those who have done the teasing, bullying, or whatever to stick

to

> one story and deny, deny, deny. It's becomes a no win situation for

> those who are getting abuse from their classmates. My son has

learned

> that to say something to an adult leads to being outcast and

shunned,

> when he holds back from telling the adults what happened he

eventually

> will explode from keeping his anger stuffed. What it boils down to

is

> that because he has been violent in the past he now is no longer

> physically pushed around.

>

> Kim

>

[Guest guest]

" Did anyone learn to use bullying for anything that was later a

positive? "

Yes. I wrote a podcast on autism and bullying to prevent others from

getting bullied. Raven edited the verbiage and the recording.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" Sometimes it's not too serious and the response can be

giving advice to the child (or asking the child questions and

coaching the child in a matter-of-fact way, helping the child

discover his or her own solution). "

I think if the child could discover his or her own solution, the child

would not be bullied. Those who are persistently bullied are bullied

because they know of no way to stop it. Aside from that, no bullying

ought to be permitted to any degree by anyone.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

You have a point, even if rudely put. And even if most of the bullies are in votech schools, they will still find people to bully.

College would not be prohibited to votech students, they just wouldn't get first choice. Because I went back to college in my late 20's, I mixed with a different group than before. The other older students were all serious about their education because they had been out there working other jobs and were ready to move on. Others were there because their jobs required a degree for promotion, etc. This might actually give those students an advantage over the prep school straight to college kids. They'll know what life is really like and should be more willing to get that degree to move on to something better. This won't always be the case, of course, but it should be more the norm than what we have now.

Votech courses tend to do very well when they are offered. College isn't for everyone, especially right out of high school, regardless of what the double-dome grand poohbahs of public education say. But then their motives should be suspect since they serve the teacher's union far more than the needs of the country in terms of education.

The rest of your comment is good, but rudely put. Even though the US does have compulsory education, as much as 50% of students in some areas drop out before graduating and illiteracy is on the rise. We have also been slipping down the ranks in performance compared to other developed nations. This is one major reason they want to increase the number of skilled and educated immigrants, because they can't find enough qualified Americans. Personally, I would rather have them than the unskilled labor coming across the border now. We are generating enough of that with our failing education system to meet domestic demand for unskilled labor. Cut welfare and those jobs will be filled and people will be staying in school.

In a message dated 5/22/2008 10:02:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

You've got one half of the equation correct, but you completely screwed the pooch on the other half: it doesn't follow that the bullies will/should end up in the vocational school setting, and the would-be bullied end up in the prep schools. Indeed, there are many that are bullied that want to go to the vocational schools, because the standard expected program really is a lousy fit for them one way or another, and they already know what theyGet trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

All criminals are opportunists. They look for weak people that will put up minimal resistance. This could indeed be a negative side of Autism awareness because it reveals new targets for the bad guys. Criminals also usually think that they will get away with it. Depending on the location, they could be right. Some parts of the US, meaning several big cities, have under a 50% rate of solving murders. Many others don't even bother with minor crimes anymore because there are so many major crimes and too few police. Even in this town the police don't put any time into things like people messing with cars or even outright vandalism and other things don't elicit much attention. So, if they learn they can get away with the little things, why not try the big things too?

Maybe I'm not understanding well, mimi. It wasn't awareness that led to this rape but rather it was the act of an opportunist who saw a vulnerable child. Such monsters do not act becuase they become more aware of the deficits of a certain difference but rather act because they believe they will get away with it.RavenCo-AdministratorGet trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

[Guest guest]

You've got one half of the equation correct, but you completely screwed the

pooch on the

other half: it doesn't follow that the bullies will/should end up in the

vocational school

setting, and the would-be bullied end up in the prep schools. Indeed, there are

many that

are bullied that want to go to the vocational schools, because the standard

expected

program really is a lousy fit for them one way or another, and they already know

what they

want to do, and the vocational school is the most logical course to take (in

more ways than

one). Just because something is vocational at a high school level, does not

preclude those

that attend from attending college later: in fact, students getting their

proverbial feet wet

in a vocational school to try out/learn what they have a goal of doing is a very

wise use of

time and energy, as it tends to cost a lot more money to find that out once at

the college

level. I'd also point this out: not all vocational education programs qualify

as remedial in

nature: in 11th-12th grades I attended the first vocational program of its type

in my area

(AKA in the industry as " Automation Alley " ) for half the school day, to study

robotics/automation. That course was new starting that year, and part of the

Oakland

County vocational school program (last I knew, 4 such schools in the county, one

for each

corner) and it was deemed such a success that my high school decided to

implement their

own more local robotics/automation course on-campus, instead of busing students

to a

different city.

Now, all this crap about " There should be no compulsory school " is exactly that:

pure and

utter crap. There's a very good reason why school (to some degree, not alway a

bachelors)

is compulsory: it makes life much better both for the individual overall, as

well as society.

The reality is that if it wasn't a requirement (which it is only to the age of

16 in the US)

there'd be a far higher illiteracy rate, a lot more crime (if you're not

qualified for a decent-

paying job, what do you do?) and the non-compulsory schools likely would be that

much

worse off, due to the lack of economies of scale and funding issues (again, this

is how

things work in the US: schools get a certain amount of state/federal funding

based on

enrolled students) there'd be a lot fewer teachers available, because there'd be

less

demand, and there'd be a massive technological deficit compared to countries

where

school is required. Question: which countries have the highest standards of

living?

Answer: those that require a certain amount of school as a course of law.

Question: which

countries are the worst? Answer: those that don't require it, and are stuck in

the mire

because the only sort of work they (as an overall population) are qualified for

are menial

manual labor. You can send all the money and resources for food to some far-off

country

you want, but if the educational infrastructure results in the conclusion of the

standard

citizen thinking about immediate existence requirements (shelter and food and

clothing)

and not planning for the future to be a better one (reachable by a combination

of available

decent education and related infrastructure that allows them to do more

high-value work)

then all you end up with are a group of people you'll still be sending food to

20 years from

now, 40 years from now, etc. because they've not improved their ability to be of

value in

the global business community. Not only that, but people with little or no

education

invariably repeat history ad-nauseam because they don't know that everything has

been

done before, likely at least a badly as they're going to do it: how many

countries with a

higher level of education do you see that suffer constant revolution, compared

to those

that have lower levels of education? Those who don't learn history are doomed

to repeat

it, and often repeat it with minor new mutations that may even be worse, if

anything is

new (beyond technology). Remember the long, dark time of European society AKA

" The

Dark Ages " and why it was so dark? Most of that can be attributed down to

ignorance and

the lack of education: the Arabs kept on advancing their technology, including

such things

as having working plumbing (I think they did: plumbing with running water

existed BC) and

created the number system we still use today (ever try to do mathematical

operations with

roman numerals? I didn't think so!) while all of Europe regressed back to

having crappy

" sewer systems " which in reality was people emptying out their chamber pots into

the

gutter in the open street: in no way would I want to live in such squalor, and

it seems

reasonable that health overall was much poorer because of it, not even counting

plagues.

A large part of " The Dark Ages " revolved around keeping education unavailable

for all but

the rich and powerful: this made it more feasible to keep poor people enslaved

in the

feudal system. The Catholic church was heavily involved in this. Are you

*SURE* you want

to return to the old ways where education is only restricted to those that both

want it and

can afford to get it?

Those that speak wholly against compulsory education clearly are poorly educated

in the

realities of the real world and history. If you're going to argue against it,

you need to

provide far more compelling logic as to why there shouldn't be at least a common

level of

education for the general population. As it stands now, the arguments against

compulsory education I've read thus far are so incredibly weak as to be

laughable at best,

and criminally stupid and negligent when you consider all the factors.

>

> IN this day and age, you really need to have an education. Not college

> necessarily, though it helps if you are looking for a job and not making one

of

> your own, though even then some business classes can really help. What should

be

> demanded is that education be quality education and that bullying be stopped

> in the schools. It would also help to have a return to vocational and

> college prep high schools. That would weed out a great many of the bullies to

the

> VoTech schools and the ones they would be bullying over to the prep schools.

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 5/21/2008 12:55:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> megaknee@... writes:

>

> But which could be reality if there was no compulsory school. That's

> the challenge to maske - that following the advice implies an

> entitlement not to go to school.

>

>

>

>

> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch " Cooking with

> Tyler Florence " on AOL Food.

> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4 & ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

>

[Guest guest]

>

> " Did anyone learn to use bullying for anything that was later a

> positive? "

>

> Yes. I wrote a podcast on autism and bullying to prevent others

from

> getting bullied. Raven edited the verbiage and the recording.

>

>

> Administrator

>

I know, but what about autistics that are used by NT's for

entertainment. There is a real need to protect people on the

spectrum from awareness abuse.

http://wbztv.com/local/brookline.school.van.2.722802.html

just one more example of why education is so expensive, because these

children as so vunerasble(as are many ASD adults) I know of story

upon story where both boys and girls are bullied and they don't even

know it. Ohh maybe I am being too vague. I guess you said it

correctly bullies should/need to suffer for their actions. Bullies

case real damage physically, psycologically, and monitarily

[Guest guest]

mimi wrote: " I know, but what about autistics that are used by NT's for

entertainment. There is a real need to protect people on the spectrum

from awareness abuse.

http://wbztv.com/local/brookline.school.van.2.722802.html ...

<snip> ... "

Maybe I'm not understanding well, mimi. It wasn't awareness that led

to this rape but rather it was the act of an opportunist who saw a

vulnerable child. Such monsters do not act becuase they become more

aware of the deficits of a certain difference but rather act because

they believe they will get away with it.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... Did anyone learn to use bullying for

anything that was later a positive? ... <snip> ... "

Yep! Along with the podcasts that mentioned, here's how I put

bullying into a more positive light.

1. I learned how to size up most of my competitors in the music

business based on profiling them against the bullies I endured while

attending school. I find that even after all this time of being out

of school, I am almost always correct on identifying who will be the

bullies in the group thereby allowing me time to either circumvent

these bullies or load up on protection (factual information, never

alone with the bully, etc.).

2. I can size up an entire crowd knowing how to diffuse

aggressiveness in the crowd by way of comments, music choices,

and 'spotlighting.' Bullies hate being 'spotlighted' unless they

control the 'spotlighting' and so, when exposed publicly in a way

that cannot come back on the one doing the 'spotlighting' these

bullies skulk away.

3. When I run into a professional who is a bully, I do a cost-

benefit analysis of the professional. In other words, I determine

whether his or her services are essential and if they are essential,

then I tap a third-party individual as a reliable, confidential go-

between for information exchanges.

That's just three more instances where I used bullying from my past

(the education and experience were invaluable in a terrible way, I

can assure you) for something that is now a sort of positive.

The adage " if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and look like

a duck, then it is most likely a duck " has helped me to vet out the

adult bullies that continue to exist.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

screwed the pooch

I've only heard this phrase used one other time, that being in the movie

Stand By Me with Dreyfuss that portrayed a group of grade school

friends on a mission to find a body. Good movie, immature phrase.

Kim

[Guest guest]

If people were aware of the US space program and how things went (part of

history that's

before many on this list were born, though during the lifetime of many) you'd

recognize

the phrase outside of a fictional movie context and realize the historical

background. Of

course, if you're all for no " compulsory education " chances are you'll never

bother to take

a course that leads to such knowledge

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/screw_the_pooch

>

>

> screwed the pooch

>

> I've only heard this phrase used one other time, that being in the movie

> Stand By Me with Dreyfuss that portrayed a group of grade school

> friends on a mission to find a body. Good movie, immature phrase.

>

> Kim

>