[SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral Therapist-Houston

[Guest guest]

Well, perhaps, but please show me the peer reviewed study that includes a

control group where

The pre and post evaluation scores of the children were done by independent

researchers as in

The Lovaas, et al study and again the study that replicated the results, the

Sallows study.

Greenspan's study only published his notes with his own evaluator saying a

child was " good "

With no definition of what " good " was. Gutstein's study didn't include a

control group of

Same age matched peers.

I'm NOT saying that there isn't benefit to Floortime or DIR (although,

personally I would choose

Son Rise). I know people who have benefited from both. I know people who

haven't seen

The progress with ABA that they would like. I actually now primarily rely

on modalities that

have no published science to back them Up (GFCF diet, supplements, cranio

sacral, NAET,

homeopathy. . . . .) of course parents should have to explore and choose

what benefits their child.

A hospital is different. A teaching hospital is really different and has

the responsibility to

Support modalities that have the empirical research behind them or provide

informed consent.

Obviously Texas Children's really Isn't too much in whether something has

the research

or not as long as Judith an supports it.

The doctors there won't recommend the GFCF diet that doesn't have research

to support

It, but they will recommend Floortime, which also doesn't have a decent

study (meaning

Including a control group) to back it up. Oh, they also will recommend off

label use of

Drugs, which don't have any evidence to support them either.

I'm saying that there is something wrong with An MD or a PhD, professionally

licensed

health care practitioners who don't have the " what Ever it takes " to get a

decent study

published in a recognized that support the results despite being around for

awhile. I'm

Saying 'hold the developers who come from a medical background, a research

based background

To research based standards if they are going to be charging people

thousands of dollars

To teach people their methods.'

S.

" Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great scientist.

They are wrong: it is character. "

Albert Einstein

From: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

[mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy ] On Behalf Of Hall, Debrah

Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:49 AM

To: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

Subject: [sPAM]RE: [sPAM]Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

There are many who would disagree with you regarding floortime and DIR.

Dollar for dollar it is much more inexpensive than ABA.

People should have options and choose what works best for their child.

[sPAM]Re: Re: Speech &

Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

I gotta put in my two cents here - we lasted in Bridges for a

month - at

that time (Oct. 2004) it was VERY poorly run, very expensive and

a complete

waste of our time.

Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

Did the Meyer Center not tell you about their Bridges Program

for children

up to 7 years old? Bridges is a comprehensive therapeutic

program that

provides floortime, speech and language, occupational and

physical therapy

for

children with developmental challenges and their families.

_http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx_

<http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx_>

(http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx

<http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx> )

CReece

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL

Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001

<http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001> )

[Guest guest]

If ABA truly left those gaps, then the " best outcome children "

From both the Lovaas & the Sallows studies would not have been

" indistinguishable " from their first grade peers in a classroom.

S.

" Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great scientist.

They are wrong: it is character. "

Albert Einstein

From: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

[mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy ] On Behalf Of Staci Cavazos

Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:31 AM

To: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

Subject: [sPAM]Re: [sPAM]Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

The psychiatrist you are referring to is Dr. Stanley Greenspan, the founder

of the federal zero to three program. I am a huge fan and happen to believe

in his approach. The DIR model fills in many, many gaps that ABA leaves

wide open. DIR/Floortime goes beyond modifying surface behaviors and

focuses on the underlying problems that cause these troubling behaviors. We

use both models of intervention and find both to be helpful, but if I had to

choose just one - I would opt for Floortime and the DIR model any day over

ABA.

As far as I know, ABA does not follow a developmental approach focusing on

the following:

1. Staying calm and regulated, and shared attention (joint attention)

2. Engagement and relatedness

3. Basic intentional interaction and communication

4. Problem solving, co-regulated interactions with a continuous flow

5. Creative and meaningful use of ideas and words

6. Building logical bridges between ideas

7. Multi-causal, comparative thinking

8. Grey area thinking

9. Reflective thinking off an internal standard

There will be studies to fill the need many have for " peer-reviewed,

researched based, " but in the meantime there are outcome studies that will

help you see the amount of progress being made.

Just wanted to relay that although it may not be for everyone, DIR has made

a remarkable difference in my son and we continue to see progress...

From a big Greenspan fan! :-)

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Singleton <

chatmom@... <mailto:chatmom%40kadenastrategies.com> >

wrote:

> It has always been very interesting to me that Bridges chose a modality

> that

> has no solid research to back it up-but that's what happens when the wife

> of

> the president of Texas Children's gets to run the show. Floortime, while

> it's currently being studied, was developed by a psychiatrist who never

> bothered to conduct a study to see if it was even effective. Apparently

> Texas Children's is so uninterested in science based interventions, so

> rather than choosing ABA, they chose something unproven and charge people

> a

> LOT of money for it.

>

> " Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great

> scientist.

>

> They are wrong: it is character. "

>

> Albert Einstein

>

> From: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

<mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy%40yahoogroups.com>

<Texas-Autism-Advocacy%40yahoogroups.com>

> [mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy

<mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy%40yahoogroups.com>

<Texas-Autism-Advocacy%40yahoogroups.com>]

> On Behalf Of Dr.

> Graham-Garza

> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:21 PM

> To: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

<mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy%40yahoogroups.com>

<Texas-Autism-Advocacy%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: [sPAM]Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

> Therapist-Houston

>

> I gotta put in my two cents here - we lasted in Bridges for a month - at

> that time (Oct. 2004) it was VERY poorly run, very expensive and a

> complete

> waste of our time.

> Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

> Therapist-Houston

>

> Did the Meyer Center not tell you about their Bridges Program for children

>

> up to 7 years old? Bridges is a comprehensive therapeutic program that

> provides floortime, speech and language, occupational and physical therapy

> for

> children with developmental challenges and their families.

>

> _http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx_

> (http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx)

>

> CReece

>

> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &

> Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

>

>

[Guest guest]

My daughter, Sydney was evaluated at the Meyer Center by Dr. Madduri and

diagnosed with Autism. Dr Madduri recommended Floor time method for Sydney over

ABA because Sydney does not have behavioral issues, and due to Sydney's sensory

processing disorder with tactical and eating, ie: hard to reward with food. Dr

Madduri felt that Floortime would be a better approach.

Sydney was nonverbal with no gesturing, one year later she speaks with 2 -3

words, points, and interacts. I think you should look at each child

individually and decide which method works best for that child with their

deficits in mind.

We don't do Floortime at Bridges, I work with Sydney at home using the

Floortime approach. We take speech and occupational therapy 4 times a week and

we see a ECI therapist 6 times a month. We could not be happier with her

improvements. I just wanted to share our joy.

Tammy

Singleton wrote:

Well, perhaps, but please show me the peer reviewed study that

includes a

control group where

The pre and post evaluation scores of the children were done by independent

researchers as in

The Lovaas, et al study and again the study that replicated the results, the

Sallows study.

Greenspan's study only published his notes with his own evaluator saying a

child was " good "

With no definition of what " good " was. Gutstein's study didn't include a

control group of

Same age matched peers.

I'm NOT saying that there isn't benefit to Floortime or DIR (although,

personally I would choose

Son Rise). I know people who have benefited from both. I know people who

haven't seen

The progress with ABA that they would like. I actually now primarily rely

on modalities that

have no published science to back them Up (GFCF diet, supplements, cranio

sacral, NAET,

homeopathy. . . . .) of course parents should have to explore and choose

what benefits their child.

A hospital is different. A teaching hospital is really different and has

the responsibility to

Support modalities that have the empirical research behind them or provide

informed consent.

Obviously Texas Children's really Isn't too much in whether something has

the research

or not as long as Judith an supports it.

The doctors there won't recommend the GFCF diet that doesn't have research

to support

It, but they will recommend Floortime, which also doesn't have a decent

study (meaning

Including a control group) to back it up. Oh, they also will recommend off

label use of

Drugs, which don't have any evidence to support them either.

I'm saying that there is something wrong with An MD or a PhD, professionally

licensed

health care practitioners who don't have the " what Ever it takes " to get a

decent study

published in a recognized that support the results despite being around for

awhile. I'm

Saying 'hold the developers who come from a medical background, a research

based background

To research based standards if they are going to be charging people

thousands of dollars

To teach people their methods.'

S.

" Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great scientist.

They are wrong: it is character. "

Albert Einstein

From: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

[mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy ] On Behalf Of Hall, Debrah

Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:49 AM

To: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

Subject: [sPAM]RE: [sPAM]Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

There are many who would disagree with you regarding floortime and DIR.

Dollar for dollar it is much more inexpensive than ABA.

People should have options and choose what works best for their child.

[sPAM]Re: Re: Speech &

Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

I gotta put in my two cents here - we lasted in Bridges for a

month - at

that time (Oct. 2004) it was VERY poorly run, very expensive and

a complete

waste of our time.

Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

Did the Meyer Center not tell you about their Bridges Program

for children

up to 7 years old? Bridges is a comprehensive therapeutic

program that

provides floortime, speech and language, occupational and

physical therapy

for

children with developmental challenges and their families.

_http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx_

<http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx_>

(http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx

<http://www.texaschildrens.org/carecenters/Bridges/faqs.aspx> )

CReece

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL

Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001

<http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001> )

[Guest guest]

They could easily be left out as ABA looks at overt behaviors - ones that can

be described and seen by the naked eye so that they can a) be replicated and

observed by others and data recorded that is objective because it is only based

on what is seen. So in that case, I could easily see that children can look

" indistinguishable " because only behavior is being recorded i.e. How many times

the child initiated, did they play with a certain toy, did they answer questions

when asked...but those are just surface behaviors - important, but for me not

enough and do not look at other things like reflective thought, creativity,

ideation etc...that are addressed by other approaches. Quite frankly, their are

situations that if the right environment was created, my son could look

indistinguishable - and he is soooo far from that, so in the context of a first

grade classroom - I could see that - but I want to know how well these children

work in small groups on

open ended tasks, how well do they pick up on nonverbal cues, can they be

creative, can they think outside the box...etc...and, more importantly, what do

they look like as they enter middle school...

Re: [Texas-Autism- Advocacy] Re: Speech & Behavioral

> Therapist-Houston

>

> Did the Meyer Center not tell you about their Bridges Program for children

>

> up to 7 years old? Bridges is a comprehensive therapeutic program that

> provides floortime, speech and language, occupational and physical therapy

> for

> children with developmental challenges and their families.

>

> _http://www.texaschi ldrens.org/ carecenters/ Bridges/faqs. aspx_

> (http://www.texaschi ldrens.org/ carecenters/ Bridges/faqs. aspx)

>

> CReece

>

> ************ **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &

> Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you do not know anything about how DIR works, then why do you find it strange

that they would choose DIR over ABA? You can only think it odd if you had some

working knowledge of the approach. rather than dismissing it off hand without

first understanding the principles upon which it is based. The concepts that

Staci outlined below can be taught to children - young and old alike - because

the developmental process is taken into account - just by doing that, you have

broken complex concepts down but are, nevertheless, teaching such higher level

thought processes such as comparative thought and reflective thinking - the

difference is is that it is rooted in a context that has meaning to the child -

generalization is built in and becomes unnecessary oftentimes, because it has

already been taken into account. Learning how to stay calm and regulated is the

touchstone upon which all the other principles and learning takes place - and

this is not about

extinguishing behaviors, and dealing with each new one that crops up as a

result, but truly identifying what it is about the sensory environment that is

dysregulating the child and teaching them how to adjust to it so that they are

then capable of learning. As a behavior analyst, I would encourage you to learn

about other methodologies - like Floortime, occupational therapy etc...if you

really want to afford your clientele a comprehensive program that helps in all

areas. My new BCBA is wonderful because she recognizes the value of her chosen

profession but also recognizes its limitations and is willing to learn new

approaches to better meets the needs of the children she is working with.

Re: [Texas-Autism- Advocacy] Re: Speech & Behavioral

> > Therapist-Houston

> >

> > Did the Meyer Center not tell you about their Bridges Program

for children

> >

> > up to 7 years old? Bridges is a comprehensive therapeutic

program that

> > provides floortime, speech and language, occupational and

physical therapy

> > for

> > children with developmental challenges and their families.

> >

> > _http://www.texaschi ldrens.org/ carecenters/ Bridges/faqs. aspx_

> > (http://www.texaschi ldrens.org/ carecenters/ Bridges/faqs. aspx)

> >

> > CReece

> >

> > ************ **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL

Money &

> > Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I was really impressed when I finally read Ron Kaufman's book,

" Son Rise: The Miracle Continues " . His ideas to seem to be in

Line with the Law of Attraction.

S.

" Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great scientist.

They are wrong: it is character. "

Albert Einstein

From: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

[mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy ] On Behalf Of

HildaBowen@...

Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:43 PM

To: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

Subject: [sPAM]Re: [sPAM]Re: Re: Speech & Behavioral

Therapist-Houston

Greenspan stole a lot of his ideas from the Kaufmans (Son-Rise).

Hilda

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

[Guest guest]

The argument has never been, from my perspective, over which

approach is better.

The point that I have been unsuccessfully trying to make is that

ABA has solid, good research to back it up. Floortime and DIR

and RDI don't. I just get really annoyed seeing them lumped

in together as if an Equivalent amount of work had gone into

both, and it simply hasn't.

In fact, I often see ABA vilified by parents and professionals

outside the behavioral field, so part of my reaction is to that.

If ABA were a drug with the same amount of research behind

it, EVERY child would leave the Doctor's office with a

prescription for ABA. Every child.

S.

" Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great scientist.

They are wrong: it is character. "

Albert Einstein

I do not know why we have to have this argument periodically over which one

is better than the other.

[Guest guest]

Based on Texas law, I think only kids under 6 would get a

prescription for ABA, and for the large numbers of kids with GI pain

it would not even be close to the best use of money.

>

> The argument has never been, from my perspective, over which

>

> approach is better.

>

>

>

> The point that I have been unsuccessfully trying to make is that

>

> ABA has solid, good research to back it up. Floortime and DIR

>

> and RDI don't. I just get really annoyed seeing them lumped

>

> in together as if an Equivalent amount of work had gone into

>

> both, and it simply hasn't.

>

>

>

> In fact, I often see ABA vilified by parents and professionals

>

> outside the behavioral field, so part of my reaction is to that.

>

>

>

> If ABA were a drug with the same amount of research behind

>

> it, EVERY child would leave the Doctor's office with a

>

> prescription for ABA. Every child.

>

> S.

>

>

>

> " Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great

scientist.

>

> They are wrong: it is character. "

>

> Albert Einstein

>

>

>

> I do not know why we have to have this argument periodically over

which one

> is better than the other.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No matter what therapies you decide to go with for your child, if they are

in physical pain - biomedical should be the first! It would be difficult

for a child to gain much from any therapies until they are treated and

feeling better. Good point!

> Based on Texas law, I think only kids under 6 would get a

> prescription for ABA, and for the large numbers of kids with GI pain

> it would not even be close to the best use of money.

>

>

> >

> > The argument has never been, from my perspective, over which

> >

> > approach is better.

> >

> >

> >

> > The point that I have been unsuccessfully trying to make is that

> >

> > ABA has solid, good research to back it up. Floortime and DIR

> >

> > and RDI don't. I just get really annoyed seeing them lumped

> >

> > in together as if an Equivalent amount of work had gone into

> >

> > both, and it simply hasn't.

> >

> >

> >

> > In fact, I often see ABA vilified by parents and professionals

> >

> > outside the behavioral field, so part of my reaction is to that.

> >

> >

> >

> > If ABA were a drug with the same amount of research behind

> >

> > it, EVERY child would leave the Doctor's office with a

> >

> > prescription for ABA. Every child.

> >

> > S.

> >

> >

> >

> > " Most people say that is it is the intellect which makes a great

> scientist.

> >

> > They are wrong: it is character. "

> >

> > Albert Einstein

> >

> >

> >

> > I do not know why we have to have this argument periodically over

> which one

> > is better than the other.

> >

> >

> >

> >