Re: thickener for liquid soap

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/22/02 1:28:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,

pdprenty@... writes:

>

>

> This is actually a question that I posted on 1toiletries as well as

> this list just in case you didn't see it on the other list:

> Hi Angie, could you tell me how to use crothix in a natural liquid

> soap? I have been doing some experimenting with it for a while

> looking for a thickener for liquid soap and I have had no luck. I

> tried using it by melting it in water, but that was a disaster. Then

> I tried melting it in the actual liquid soap and there was a white

> layer of goo on top when it cooled. I had come to the conclusion

> that it just will not work due to the high ph of natural liquid soap,

> but maybe I have missed something.

> Thanks for any help,

>

Hi Pat,

I am not sure what the problem could be?? Could it be that liquid soaps

vary? I don't know much about liquid soap and much prefer using a mild

surfactant, but I have experimented with liquid soap and crothix because I

have had requests for something to thicken liquid soap. I just heated a

small amount of the liquid soap with the crothix pastilles until the

pastilles melted. Then I added the remainder of the soap, gently stirring it

in. Even though I can't stand to use liquid soap, it did make a beautiful

gel-like blend. Could it be that you didn't heat it enough? Crothix is

supposed to work best in systems with a pH of 5-9---would the soap be higher

than that? If I remember correctly, the liquid soap I tried it with came to

a pH of around 9 after the crothix was added---don't know what it was to

start with---but maybe I will go check it out just to see.

Sorry you are having problems, maybe some of the chemists would understand

what may be happening. If I were you, I would try again with a small amount

of soap and around .75-1% of the crothix and make sure it melts completely

and you continue to stir it in as it cools.

Good luck!

Angie

The Herbarie...Visit us at:  http://www.theherbarie.com for Body Care

Products and Bulk Ingredients...Botanical Extracts and Proteins, Ultra-Mild

Surfactant Blends, Conditioning Emulsifiers.

[Guest guest]

Angie:

I just love your site - and always spend too much time when I am there -

if only I could remember to ORDER from there when I am looking!! You

seem to have everything needed on your site....

Kristal

thickener for liquid soap

In a message dated 3/21/02 7:23:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,

sweetsoaps@... writes:

> What preservatives are recommended for liquid soap? Has anyone found a

> proven thickener for liquid soap?

>

Hi Joan,

I carry a conditioning thickener (Crothix) that works beautifully in

liquid

soap, as well as almost any surfactant blend for shampoo or body wash.

You

can find it on my website: http://www.theherbarie.com/emulsfy.html.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Angie

The Herbarie...Visit us at: http://www.theherbarie.com for Body Care

Products and Bulk Ingredients...Botanical Extracts and Proteins,

Ultra-Mild

Surfactant Blends, Conditioning Emulsifiers.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/22/02 2:21:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,

pdprenty@... writes:

> Thanks for the reply Angie, I did heat up the liquid soap and the

> crothix was completely melted and mixed in. I continued to stir it

> but when it cooled I got the white gooey layer on top. Did you make

> the liquid soap yourself? I thought that you could not get liquid

> soap below a ph of 9 even with neutralization. What kind of

> neutralizer did you use, would you mind sharing your recipe, maybe I

> can see where the difference in the soap is and try again.

>

Hi Pat,

So sorry you are having the problem with the soap! No, I did not make the

liquid soap that I tried. I love to make solid soap and love to use it, but

as I said, I don't know much about liquid soap--don't like what I've tried

either. Maybe the pH is the problem after all---how high is it? The liquid

soap that I tried is one that I had purchased from Snowdrift Farms quite a

long time ago and just had it stashed on a back shelf. I found it quite

harsh and never wanted to use it. I know Dee is a knowledgeable soapmaker,

as well as Jules....also, Jules has used the crothix in other formulations.

So, Jules, have you had luck with crothix in your liquid soap? So sorry if I

have mislead you, but it did work in the one that I tried. I wish I had

another liquid soap to try it in. Maybe some other folks will help us out.

Angie

The Herbarie...Visit us at:  http://www.theherbarie.com for Body Care

Products and Bulk Ingredients...Botanical Extracts and Proteins, Ultra-Mild

Surfactant Blends, Conditioning Emulsifiers.

[Guest guest]

This is actually a question that I posted on 1toiletries as well as

this list just in case you didn't see it on the other list:

Hi Angie, could you tell me how to use crothix in a natural liquid

soap? I have been doing some experimenting with it for a while

looking for a thickener for liquid soap and I have had no luck. I

tried using it by melting it in water, but that was a disaster. Then

I tried melting it in the actual liquid soap and there was a white

layer of goo on top when it cooled. I had come to the conclusion

that it just will not work due to the high ph of natural liquid soap,

but maybe I have missed something.

Thanks for any help,

Pat

> Hi Joan,

> I carry a conditioning thickener (Crothix) that works beautifully

in liquid

> soap, as well as almost any surfactant blend for shampoo or body

wash. You

> can find it on my website: http://www.theherbarie.com/emulsfy.html.

> Let me know if you have any questions.

> Angie

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply Angie, I did heat up the liquid soap and the

crothix was completely melted and mixed in. I continued to stir it

but when it cooled I got the white gooey layer on top. Did you make

the liquid soap yourself? I thought that you could not get liquid

soap below a ph of 9 even with neutralization. What kind of

neutralizer did you use, would you mind sharing your recipe, maybe I

can see where the difference in the soap is and try again.

Pat

***************************

> Hi Pat,

> I am not sure what the problem could be?? Could it be that liquid

soaps

> vary? I don't know much about liquid soap and much prefer using a

mild

> surfactant, but I have experimented with liquid soap and crothix

because I

> have had requests for something to thicken liquid soap. I just

heated a

> small amount of the liquid soap with the crothix pastilles until

the

> pastilles melted. Then I added the remainder of the soap, gently

stirring it

> in. Even though I can't stand to use liquid soap, it did make a

beautiful

> gel-like blend. Could it be that you didn't heat it enough?

Crothix is

> supposed to work best in systems with a pH of 5-9---would the soap

be higher

> than that? If I remember correctly, the liquid soap I tried it

with came to

> a pH of around 9 after the crothix was added---don't know what it

was to

> start with---but maybe I will go check it out just to see.

have been removed]

[Guest guest]

Pat, its worked for me twice, but it's been a heckuva long time since

I did it, since like Angie, I really don't like liquid soap all that

much - at least not the stuff I made using Failor's " superfatting is

the greatest evil of our times " liquid soap. The stuff I made long

long ago using Cavitch's recipe was pretty good, but it wasn't a

clear 0% superfat thing anyway and didn't need thickening.

Maybe it's the borax? As you know, I refuse to use borax in liquid

soap but I'm aware that you use a relatively high concentration.

Both times I've used the Crothix in soap it's had citric acid in it.

I suspect that the one Angie tried was also using citric acid, IIRC.

Given that using borax still leaves you with soap with a pH of nearly

10, but citric acid creates one that is somewhat lower in pH, I'm

willing to suspect that might be the culprit. No guarantees, but

it's better than no speculation at all! *grin*

Jules in Vancouver BC

[Guest guest]

Thanks Angie and Jules, I will try using citric acid in my next batch

and see what happens. I have a ph meter winging it's way to me as we

write, so maybe that will help determine the ph and that may just do

the trick. I only use under 1% of borax and because I use such high

amounts of liquid oils I pretty much have had to use the borax to

stop the soap from skinning up and to thicken the soap. The liquid

oils do give me a very thick product, but I am trying to do some

experimentation to thicken a higher coconut batch which up to this

time has pretty well been impossible.

I wonder if Snowcap was using citric acid and that was why it was

irritating. I don't use citric acid very much, just a tiny bit in

lotion, and I am a shower girl so no bath bombs for me. Does anyone

know if citric acid is at all irritating? Anyway, I will let

everyone know if I get the crothix to work.

Pat

> Pat, its worked for me twice, but it's been a heckuva long time

since

> I did it, since like Angie, I really don't like liquid soap all

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/22/02 6:13:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,

pdprenty@... writes:

> Subj: Re: thickener for liquid soap

> Date: 3/22/02 6:13:34 PM Pacific Standard Time

> From: pdprenty@... (pdprenty)

> Reply-to: Cosmeticinfo

> To: Cosmeticinfo

>

>

>

>

> Thanks Angie and Jules, I will try using citric acid in my next batch

> and see what happens. I have a ph meter winging it's way to me as we

> write, so maybe that will help determine the ph and that may just do

> the trick. I only use under 1% of borax and because I use such high

> amounts of liquid oils I pretty much have had to use the borax to

> stop the soap from skinning up and to thicken the soap. The liquid

> oils do give me a very thick product, but I am trying to do some

> experimentation to thicken a higher coconut batch which up to this

> time has pretty well been impossible.

> I wonder if Snowcap was using citric acid and that was why it was

> irritating. I don't use citric acid very much, just a tiny bit in

> lotion, and I am a shower girl so no bath bombs for me. Does anyone

> know if citric acid is at all irritating? Anyway, I will let

> everyone know if I get the crothix to work.

> Pat

>

Hi Pat, Jules and All,

Gees, I wish I knew! Here is what the label on the Snowdrift Farms liquid

soap says: distilled water, saponified palm and coconut oil, potassium

sorbate. 37% active ingredients.

So, it doesn't appear to have citric acid added to it. I checked the pH this

morning and got 9.5-----but the only calibration solutions that I have are 4

and 7, so it may not be all that accurate?? How high does liquid soap pH

typically go--10-11?

Anyway, I would betcha that if you can lower the pH on your liquid soap, the

crothix would work. If not, I have some REALLY nice surfactant blends that

you ought to try !!!! Let us know how it turns out---I love an

experiment!

Angie

The Herbarie...Visit us at:  http://www.theherbarie.com for Body Care

Products and Bulk Ingredients...Botanical Extracts and Proteins, Ultra-Mild

Surfactant Blends, Conditioning Emulsifiers.

[Guest guest]

Well I guess that is why the soap was so harsh, no neutralization

going on there. I supose that they are using the potassium sorbate

as some sort of preservative because of the amount of water.

I will try the citric acid as a neutralizer and hopefully it will

lower the ph to a point that the crothix can be used.

Thanks so much angie for your help.

Pat

> Hi Pat, Jules and All,

> Gees, I wish I knew! Here is what the label on the Snowdrift Farms

liquid

> soap says: distilled water, saponified palm and coconut oil,

potassium

> sorbate. 37% active ingredients.

> So, it doesn't appear to have citric acid added to it. I checked

the pH this

> morning and got 9.5-----but the only calibration solutions that I

have are 4

> and 7, so it may not be all that accurate??

[Guest guest]

>Well I guess that is why the soap was so harsh, no neutralization

>going on there.ÿ I supose that they are using the potassium sorbate

>as some sort of preservative because of the amount of water.ÿ

>I will try the citric acid as a neutralizer and hopefully it will

>lower the ph to a point that the crothix can be used.ÿ

>Thanks so much angie for your help.

>Pat

Hi Pat,

Potassium Sorbate is only effective is products that have a pH at 5.5

or lower. I have no idea why Trina and/or Bill are using Potassium

Sorbate in an alkaline system.

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

Pat, don't forget that neutralization is only necessary if you

overalkalinize like Failor recommends. Not everyone does it that

way - I don't anymore, and I know of few suppliers that do. Anything

at a zero superfat will be harsh by nature, like transparent soap is.

The potassium sorbate itself is a known irritant, that could have

been the culprit!

Jules in Vancouver BC

> > Hi Pat, Jules and All,

> > Gees, I wish I knew! Here is what the label on the Snowdrift

Farms

> liquid

> > soap says: distilled water, saponified palm and coconut oil,

> potassium

> > sorbate. 37% active ingredients.

> > So, it doesn't appear to have citric acid added to it. I checked

> the pH this

> > morning and got 9.5-----but the only calibration solutions that I

> have are 4

> > and 7, so it may not be all that accurate??