Re: was GS now emulsifiers/emollients

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/5/02 6:50:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

oakridge@... writes:

> >>I need a big chunk of time.

>

> Remember the old song, Stop The World I Want to Get Off? That's where I am

>

>

> Yes, I agree this emulsifier/emollient question begs for a further study.

>

> I may know the answer to this, but it's not forthcoming right now....when

> we

> have an emulsifier/emollient product....do we get the percentages of each

> ingredient on the MSDS? If so, would we be wise to put together a

> combination that total certain %'s of each to produce the desired results?

>

> Jan Flood oakridge@...

> www.oakridgefarm.com

Hi Jan,

Yep, that's probably true for alot of us these days NO time!

I'm not sure I understand your question about an emulsifier/emollient

product. Do you mean one of the self-emulsifiers, such as Polawax (INCI:

Emulsifying Wax NF), Conditioning Emulsifier (INCI: Behentrimonium

Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol), Prolipid (INCI:depends on which one)?

If so the MSDS doesn't really list percentages of each component. For

example, the Conditioning Emulsifier is listed as:

Chemical Family: Fatty Quaternary Amine Salt & Fatty Alcohol

Chemical Name: Blend of Behenyl Trimethyl Ammonium Methosulfate & Cetearyl

Alcohol

Is this what you mean? One of the reasons that Dave and Maurice and others

don't like the self-emulsifiers is because it is a " one size fits all " kind

of system...only it doesn't always fit perfectly. Using self-emulsifiers is

a bit like taking the shotgun approach....in other words, many people think

our formulas should be custom designed with the appropriate type and

percentage of emulsifiers, rather than using an all ready established system

that could be hit or miss. I believe that most of the time these systems are

more overkill than underkill and therefore they work ok. I quite honestly

like the self-emulsifiers and think they have an important place in

toiletries, but that's my humble opinion.

So, I don't know if I am on target with your question or not...let me know if

this is totally off the mark.

Angie

PS I just noticed all my examples involve target practice...forgive me, I

have no idea why it came out that way

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>I may know the answer to this, but it's not forthcoming right now....when we

>have an emulsifier/emollient product....do we get the percentages of each

>ingredient on the MSDS?

I think percentages are required if any of the ingredients used in this

product are considered a hazardous chemical under the U.S. Occupational

Safety and Health Administration's (OSHA) Hazard Communication Standard

(29 CFR Sec. 1910.1200).

>If so, would we be wise to put together a

>combination that total certain %'s of each to produce the desired results?

I don't understand this question.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

WOW!

Great conversation going on here.

Been using Polowax and Stearic Acid.

Reading labels and seeing the other emulsifiers used in commerce and the

posts on this list the past few months have me panting to try a better way.

Hoping to get a web site up in 2003. As it's being developed my aim is to

choose a lotion formula that I really like and work on researching an

emulsifying system that may make it an even better product.

Thanks list members for all the insight.

Off to the last show for the year,

Bobbi ~

[Guest guest]

>> Dave and Maurice and others don't like the self-emulsifiers is because it

is a " one size fits all " kind of system...only it doesn't always fit

perfectly.

I'm not phrasing this correctly I know...boxes of decorations covering the

floor but yes, it's the one-size fits all approach. I guess the best

way to ask is - is there a way to " customize " these conditioning/emulsifying

products by choosing our co-emulsifiers or conditioning ingredients to

complement the first? I know this is how we would do it if we were using

individual ingredients, but am thinking of a way to stock fewer items and

get basically the same results. Use two combo products rather than 8

individual ones - even if it does result in a bit of over-kill. Many

ingredients are used in such a small amount - but must be purchased in large

amounts, and require the storage space.

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/5/02 8:41:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

oakridge@... writes:

> >>Dave and Maurice and others don't like the self-emulsifiers is because it

> is a " one size fits all " kind of system...only it doesn't always fit

> perfectly.

>

> I'm not phrasing this correctly I know...boxes of decorations covering the

> floor but yes, it's the one-size fits all approach. I guess the best

> way to ask is - is there a way to " customize " these

> conditioning/emulsifying

> products by choosing our co-emulsifiers or conditioning ingredients to

> complement the first? I know this is how we would do it if we were using

> individual ingredients, but am thinking of a way to stock fewer items and

> get basically the same results. Use two combo products rather than 8

> individual ones - even if it does result in a bit of over-kill. Many

> ingredients are used in such a small amount - but must be purchased in

> large

> amounts, and require the storage space.

>

> Jan Flood oakridge@...

> www.oakridgefarm.com

Hi Jan,

OK, I think I know where you are trying to go So you are thinking about

using one of the conditioning type self-emulsifiers----since you are already

using it, let's say for example the Prolipid 141 --INCI: Glyceryl Stearate

(and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Palmitic Acid (and) Stearic Acid (and) Lecithin

(and) Lauryl Alcohol (and) Myristyl Alcohol (and) Cetyl Alcohol---- with

another co-emulsifier? To my knowledge, these products/companies don't list

the % of the specific components--at least I am not aware of any that list

them that way. The chemists know the rules much better than I do, but it

seems that the basic chemical composition and INCI name are all that are

required, but I'm not sure. I haven't been able to have any of the tech

people give me a break down on them Perhaps the chemists have the inside

story on some of these, but it's not common knowledge. So, I think it would

be difficult if not impossible to calculate HLB and you would have to go with

an educated guess or feel for what would enhance the particular

formulation......but that's my opinion. The techs at the various companies

will offer suggestions also. By the way, ISP tech dept. recommends no

additional emulsifier be added to their system, which as they describe it is

a lamellar gel system that acts as a barrier on the skin and forms something

like an oil in gel emulsion.

As far as additions/nutrients/conditioners, it sounds to me like using

expensive oils, like jojoba or such would be a waste in this particular

system since they would be trapped within this " network " and wouldn't come in

contact with the skin anyway. To me, you could enhance your product by using

something water soluble, like proteins or botanicals. But again I am

guessing and would love for Maurice and to help out here!

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>>By the way, ISP tech dept. recommends no additional emulsifier be added to

their system

Yes, I've seen this -- and it certainly does contain plenty. I don't know

the details for disruption of the bilayer structure and I haven't yet talked

to them yet about contraindications. I find it interesting they started

with 131, then 141, now 151. I'm still working through the changing

formulations...trying to see the benefits of each.

I've made cremes using just this, however, adding a little extra makes it

very thick, very dry & water resistant while retaining a good feel and

texture.

My " testers " - specifically cosmetologists, love it. I'm trying to

duplicate the results with different products now. Thanks for your

thoughts!

Jan Flood oakridge@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/5/02 6:08:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,

oakridge@... writes:

> >>By the way, ISP tech dept. recommends no additional emulsifier be added to

> their system

>

> Yes, I've seen this -- and it certainly does contain plenty. I don't know

> the details for disruption of the bilayer structure and I haven't yet

> talked

> to them yet about contraindications. I find it interesting they started

> with 131, then 141, now 151. I'm still working through the changing

> formulations...trying to see the benefits of each.

>

> I've made cremes using just this, however, adding a little extra makes it

> very thick, very dry & water resistant while retaining a good feel and

> texture.

>

> My " testers " - specifically cosmetologists, love it. I'm trying to

> duplicate the results with different products now. Thanks for your

> thoughts!

>

> Jan Flood oakridge@...

>

Hi Jan,

I have to say the Prolipid sounds intriguing........too bad they charge and

arm and a leg for it I should be getting a sample soon and look forward

to playing with it. When I spoke with the tech, my general impression is

that the products " claim to fame " is that it forms a barrier on the skin that

is resistant to rinse-off (much like petroleum) thereby holding in moisture.

They recommend it in sunscreen products and other delivery systems, where you

want the product to 'stay put'. The plus for the Prolipid, as opposed to a

simple petroleum, is the feel that comes from their particular system

structure.....oh and the fact that it is a self-emulsifier. The 141 is

supposed to give you a higher viscosity than the 151, so that is something to

keep in mind also. I'm interested in how the product would be used in facial

and body washes....can't really see how that would work. But, yes, it does

sound neat. Maybe Maurice has more info on this lamellar gel system.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>Maybe Maurice has more info on this lamellar gel system.

Try these links for now.

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/hairskin/skincare/prolipid/index.html

http://www.ritacorp.com/literature/acylndex.pdf

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------