thickening KOH soap with Structure 3001

[Guest guest]

Hi.

A few weeks ago, Maurice, you offered up the idea of using Structure 3001

for thickening liquid soap (I believe you posted that!!). Actually, I had

come across this product on National Starch many months ago, and had

requested a sample way back then, thinking that it might be an alternative.

Finally (yes, I'm slow!) I have begun to experiment with this product. I

have looked at all the specifications, formulations, and notes regarding

Structure 3001, and I also am familiar with other polymer products, too. I

am having trouble, and would like some assistance...please.

I have tried multiple mixing " strategies " , and have used various

formulations and %'s: mostly variations of water + S3001 + soap or water +

S3001 + TEA + soap...typically using the S3001 at around 5-10%, and the

water about 60-70% and the soap at 25-30%. I have even used the stick

blender in desperation. :-/ I always yield a lumpy end-product, and

certainly not clear--more milky in appearance. (Although I can get S3001 to

work as intended with just water, S3001, and TEA...so I know what I'm

looking for....)

I may be totally off-base here! Can you point me in a better direction?

Thanks so much,

Kathy K. ~~ Originals~~ http://members.truepath.com/kathyk

Leavenworth, KS

mailto:kathyk@...

[Guest guest]

>A few weeks ago, Maurice, you offered up the idea of using Structure 3001

>for thickening liquid soap (I believe you posted that!!). Actually, I had

>come across this product on National Starch many months ago, and had

>requested a sample way back then, thinking that it might be an alternative.

>Finally (yes, I'm slow!) I have begun to experiment with this product. I

>have looked at all the specifications, formulations, and notes regarding

>Structure 3001, and I also am familiar with other polymer products, too. I

>am having trouble, and would like some assistance...please.

>

>I have tried multiple mixing " strategies " , and have used various

>formulations and %'s: mostly variations of water + S3001 + soap or water +

>S3001 + TEA + soap...typically using the S3001 at around 5-10%, and the

>water about 60-70% and the soap at 25-30%. I have even used the stick

>blender in desperation. :-/ÿÿ I always yield a lumpy end-product, and

>certainly not clear--more milky in appearance. (Although I can get S3001 to

>work as intended with just water, S3001, and TEA...so I know what I'm

>looking for....)

>

>I may be totally off-base here! Can you point me in a better direction?

Kathy,

I would love to help you, if I can. Before we go too far, tell me a

little more about your soap? Can I assume it is a stable liquid soap

that is just too thin?

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

>

>

>>A few weeks ago, Maurice, you offered up the idea of using Structure 3001

>>for thickening liquid soap (I believe you posted that!!). Actually, I had

>>come across this product on National Starch many months ago, and had

>>requested a sample way back then, thinking that it might be an alternative.

>>Finally (yes, I'm slow!) I have begun to experiment with this product. I

>>have looked at all the specifications, formulations, and notes regarding

>>Structure 3001, and I also am familiar with other polymer products, too. I

>>am having trouble, and would like some assistance...please.

>>

>>I have tried multiple mixing " strategies " , and have used various

>>formulations and %'s: mostly variations of water + S3001 + soap or water +

>>S3001 + TEA + soap...typically using the S3001 at around 5-10%, and the

>>water about 60-70% and the soap at 25-30%. I have even used the stick

>>blender in desperation. :-/ÿÿ I always yield a lumpy end-product, and

>>certainly not clear--more milky in appearance. (Although I can get S3001 to

>>work as intended with just water, S3001, and TEA...so I know what I'm

>>looking for....)

>>

>>I may be totally off-base here! Can you point me in a better direction?

>

>Kathy,

>

>I would love to help you, if I can. Before we go too far, tell me a

>little more about your soap? Can I assume it is a stable liquid soap

>that is just too thin?

>It is your basic KOH soap, with vegetable-types of oils, etc. It has a pH of

>9.4 and is about 33% oils (figuring by the final weight of soap and initial

>oils in the formula--I'm trying to figure out how to express how

>concentrated the soap is...LOL) It is a clear, light amber. I love the

>formula, and have been using it for a while now. I am hoping to create a

>more viscous gel. My own opinion is that concentrating it more be reducing

>the water % just yields " too much soap " for a typical application, if you

>know what I mean. That's why I'm trying to add a thickener. Is that what

>you wanted to know?

I think I have enough information.

Have you had a chance to read the Structure 3001 Technical Bulletin?

http://www.personalcarepolymers.com/Doc/EN/TSB/0786928.pdf

Quoting from that document:

" FORMULATION GUIDELINES

While STRUCTURE 2001/3001 thickeners are extremely user-friendly, and

in general can simply be added to water, neutralized, and easily mixed,

the following guidelines may be helpful.

A formulator may want to create an aqueous pre-mix containing about 50%

water and 50% polymer as supplied. By no means is this a requirement of

using STRUCTURE 2001/3001 thickeners, but it may further reduce

processing time and increase processing ease.

When using STRUCTURE 2001/3001 in a single component system, remember

to add the neutralizer last. This minimizes mixing energy inputs and

allows for more efficient processing. "

Structure 3001, as supplied, has a pH of 2.2 to 3.5. The thickening

properties of Structure 3001 are " activated " when the Structure 3001 is

neutralized with an alkaline material.

>I can get S3001 to work as intended with just water, S3001, and TEA...

So now, instead of using TEA as your neutralizer, use your KOH soap.

Since I've never used Structure 3001 in this application, I don't know

the answer, so I hope you'll report back with your results, good or

bad.

>typically using the S3001 at around 5-10%

I think this is too high, especially if you look at the viscosity vs

concentration curve in the Structure 3001 Technical Bulletin.

Lets start with 3% to start.

Mix

Water = 22%

Sructure 3001 = 3%

Then mix the water and Structure 3001, then add

Kathy's Primo Soap = 75%

Mix and let us know what happened.

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

[Guest guest]

If I may ask:

Can a household product (cornstarch or other) perform well in this

capacity ? Especially for an opaque liquid soap formula ?

Thank you !