RE: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

[Guest guest]

We added a whole house filter to our air

handler with Merv 12 and found the filter clogging up quickly enough to freeze

AC after about 5 weeks. We weren’t the only unhappy customers because

AprilAir came out with Merv 10 filters for the same unit about that same time.

Merv 10s have worked better, but we still have to change about every 2 months

in AC season and every 3 months other times.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb b w

Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012

12:35 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Ventilator w

MERV 12 filter

Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12

filter.

http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

Shell

'Smart' move. The very-fine particles that the MERV 12 took out more efficiently, but the MERV 10 lets through, are the dangerous ones. To save a few extra filter changes per year (4), likely at small cost, you have significantly increased your exposure to extra-fine particles, and the associated risk.

While this is a normal consumer reaction, it is very wrong-minded. Too bad more public education is not being provided in this area.

Jim H. White SSC

RE: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

We added a whole house filter to our air handler with Merv 12 and found the filter clogging up quickly enough to freeze AC after about 5 weeks. We weren’t the only unhappy customers because AprilAir came out with Merv 10 filters for the same unit about that same time. Merv 10s have worked better, but we still have to change about every 2 months in AC season and every 3 months other times.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb b wSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 12:35 PMTo: iequality Subject: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter. http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

Shell Just my two cents worth. The fact that the home was producing enough particulate matter PM to clog your filter would be my first concern. Is the MERV 12 filter a 1 inch or 4 inch filter? If it is the 4 inch filter it shouldn’t be clogging and you have an issue with PM production in the home. It may be as simple as an air infiltration issue somewhere in your home that is producing a substantial amount of PM. It may be the home owners have 12 cats. The issue of elevated PM should be further investigated and corrected. I have many clients that attempt to solve an excessive dust issue with filtration only to be frustrated when the filters clog. The identification of just what it is that is causing the excessive dust should be the primary concern. Then the issue of collecting and removing the remaining accumulation of PM can be addressed and the normal household PM maintained via filtration. Just my thoughts. P. Lapotaire, CIECCertified Indoor Environmental Consultant Microshield Environmental Services, LLCCertification by American Council for Accredited Certification Council Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant ACAC CIEC #0711048Council-certified Environmental Thermography Consultant ACAC CETC #1005013Accreditation by Council for Engineering and Scientific Specialty Boards (CESB)Florida State License Mold Assessor MRS #4cell fax email @... website www.FloridaIAQ.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:36 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter We added a whole house filter to our air handler with Merv 12 and found the filter clogging up quickly enough to freeze AC after about 5 weeks. We weren’t the only unhappy customers because AprilAir came out with Merv 10 filters for the same unit about that same time. Merv 10s have worked better, but we still have to change about every 2 months in AC season and every 3 months other times. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb b wSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 12:35 PMTo: iequality Subject: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter. http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

The reason I posted this is I have heard that energy recovery ventilators can

become a source of mold growth themselves, like window air conditioners, so

figured this one w a MERV 12 would avoid that. Switching to a MERV 10 would

also protect it if you could find a filter that would fit machine.

>

> Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter.

>

> http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

>

[Guest guest]

Jim:

It was my understanding that merv 10 is still pretty good. Does the

group disagree?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

--- Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

>

>

>

>

>

> Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter.

>

> http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

:

It is my house. My wife smokes in the house. We have two cats and we

cook a lot. Since I can't get rid of any of those sources of PM isn't

changing expensive filters about all I can do?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

--- Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

>

>

>

>

>

> Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter.

>

> http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

Your post is better and more polite than mine.

Jim

RE: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Shell

Just my two cents worth.

The fact that the home was producing enough particulate matter PM to clog your filter would be my first concern.

Is the MERV 12 filter a 1 inch or 4 inch filter? If it is the 4 inch filter it shouldn’t be clogging and you have an issue with PM production in the home. It may be as simple as an air infiltration issue somewhere in your home that is producing a substantial amount of PM. It may be the home owners have 12 cats. The issue of elevated PM should be further investigated and corrected.

I have many clients that attempt to solve an excessive dust issue with filtration only to be frustrated when the filters clog.

The identification of just what it is that is causing the excessive dust should be the primary concern. Then the issue of collecting and removing the remaining accumulation of PM can be addressed and the normal household PM maintained via filtration.

Just my thoughts.

P. Lapotaire, CIEC

Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant

Microshield Environmental Services, LLC

Certification by American Council for Accredited Certification

Council Certified Indoor Environmental Consultant ACAC CIEC #0711048

Council-certified Environmental Thermography Consultant ACAC CETC #1005013

Accreditation by Council for Engineering and Scientific Specialty Boards (CESB)

Florida State License Mold Assessor MRS #4

cell fax

email @... website www.FloridaIAQ.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:36 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

We added a whole house filter to our air handler with Merv 12 and found the filter clogging up quickly enough to freeze AC after about 5 weeks. We weren’t the only unhappy customers because AprilAir came out with Merv 10 filters for the same unit about that same time. Merv 10s have worked better, but we still have to change about every 2 months in AC season and every 3 months other times.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb b wSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 12:35 PMTo: iequality Subject: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter. http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

Shouldn't Shell have a kitchen exhaust?:

It is my house. My wife smokes in the house. We have two cats and we

cook a lot. Since I can't get rid of any of those sources of PM isn't

changing expensive filters about all I can do?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

---

[Guest guest]

Shell, One of the issues with using the better filters is that the pressure drop on the filters goes up with the higher MERV rating. A Merv 10 should have a lower initial and final pressure drop than the 12. The question asked by asks if this is a 1inch’ or 4 inch (deep) filter. This is a good question and here’s why; The standard sizes are 1”, 2” and 4” thick, the one inch has the highest initial pressure drop which will increase as the filter loads. If your duct system is marginally sized, the better grade filter may have just a high enough pressure drop to cause problems with air flow on the coil and thus freezing. Many of today’s air handling unit fans have marginally sized blowers and the recommended external static pressure is 0.5 inches of water column for the designed duct system (very few are designed that low), it doesn’t take much duct to get to that drop. If you add better filtration, it detracts from that number and reduces the airflow on the coil. The 2” filters will have approximately twice the media surface area as the 1”, and thus lower pressure drop because you have a lower velocity across the coil. The 4” pleated will have 3 to 4 times the media and thus less pressure drop. There are all types of media, and pleated filter configurations, with different pleat spacing and different pressure drops that you can order. How this affects the unit: The units are typically designed to handle a 1” “standard” dust catcher filter with an initial pressure drop of 0.1 inches: A consumer filter with a MERV of 12 can have a pressure drop of 0.4 inches for a 1” thick filter, 0.25 for a 2”, and 0.12” for a 4”. Assuming a face velocity across the face of the filter of 375 feet per minute. The pressure drop goes by the velocity across the face area of the filtration media not the filter face. A 2 ft. by 2 ft. filter has a face area of 4 sq ft. where-as the filter media in the pleated pattern is 9.3 sq. ft. for a 1” and 27.1 Sq. ft. for a 4” A 1” MERV 12 pleated can restrict your air handling units airflow quite severely. You can get mini-pleats, filters with many pleats rather than the 9 to 11 per foot many come as. This increases the square footage of the media and thus lowers the pressure drop making it more acceptable. First see if you can expand the size of the area where the filter is and put in a larger filtration area,, next see if where the filter is located can be expanded to house a deeper filter. Go on the web and see if you can order your filters custom with a higher pleated count per foot with lower pressure drop, you’ll probably have to order them a dozen at a time. I like the 4” pleted filters, it is what I use in my own home. Never stack two 1” filters and believe you have a 2 inch filter, you only have twice the pressure drop. Do not fall for sales pitch of the efficiency of an electronic filter for homes, but that is a another whole conversation, why in those environments they are bad. Ron Engineering Corporation From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:55 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter Jim:It was my understanding that merv 10 is still pretty good. Does the group disagree?Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinoissbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com-------- Original Message --------> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 8:32 AM> To: iequality > Subject: Re: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter> > Shell> 'Smart' move. The very-fine particles that the MERV 12 took out more efficiently, but the MERV 10 lets through, are the dangerous ones. To save a few extra filter changes per year (4), likely at small cost, you have significantly increased your exposure to extra-fine particles, and the associated risk.> > While this is a normal consumer reaction, it is very wrong-minded. Too bad more public education is not being provided in this area.> > Jim H. White SSC> > Ventilator w MERV 12 filter> > > > > > Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter. > > http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

Sorry for not answering earlier. We have 4

inch filters.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Ron

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012

1:50 PM

To: iequality

Cc: ElectronicSent

Subject: RE:

Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Shell,

One of the issues with using the better filters is that the

pressure drop on the filters goes up with the higher MERV rating. A Merv 10

should have a lower initial and final pressure drop than the 12. The question

asked by asks if this is a 1inch’ or 4 inch (deep) filter. This is a

good question and here’s why; The standard sizes are 1”, 2”

and 4” thick, the one inch has the highest initial pressure drop which

will increase as the filter loads. If your duct system is marginally sized, the

better grade filter may have just a high enough pressure drop to cause problems

with air flow on the coil and thus freezing. Many of today’s air handling

unit fans have m arginally sized blowers and the recommended external static

pressure is 0.5 inches of water column for the designed duct system (very few

are designed that low), it doesn’t take much duct to get to that drop. If

you add better filtration, it detracts from that number and reduces the airflow

on the coil.

The 2” filters will have approximately twice the media

surface area as the 1”, and thus lower pressure drop because you have a

lower velocity across the coil. The 4” pleated will have 3 to 4 times the

media and thus less pressure drop. There are all types of media, and pleated

filter configurations, with different pleat spacing and different pressure

drops that you can order.

How this affects the unit:

The units are typically designed to handle a 1”

“standard” dust catcher filter with an initial pressure drop of 0.1

inches:

A consumer filter with a MERV of 12 can have a pressure drop of

0.4 inches for a 1” thick filter, 0.25 for a 2”, and 0.12”

for a 4”. Assuming a face velocity across the face of the filter of

375 feet per minute. The pressure drop goes by the velocity across the

face area of the filtration media not the filter face. A 2 ft. by 2

ft. filter has a face are a of 4 sq ft. where-as the filter media in the

pleated pattern is 9.3 sq. ft. for a 1” and 27.1 Sq. ft. for a 4”

A 1” MERV 12 pleated can restrict your air handling units

airflow quite severely. You can get mini-pleats, filters with many pleats

rather than the 9 to 11 per foot many come as. This increases the square

footage of the media and thus lowers the pressure drop making it more

acceptable. First see if you can expand the size of the area where the filter

is and put in a larger filtration area,, next see if where the filter is

located can be expanded to house a deeper filter. Go on the web and see

if you can order your filters custom with a higher pleated count per foot with

lower pressure drop, you’ll probably have to order them a dozen at a

time. I like the 4” pleted filters, it is what I use in my own home.

Never stack two 1” filters and believe you have a 2 inch

filter, you only have twice the pressure drop.

Do not fall for sales pitch of the efficiency of an electronic

filter for homes, but that is a another whole conversation, why in those

environments they are bad.

Ron

Engineering Corporation

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell Bleiweiss

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012

11:55 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:

Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Jim:

It was my understanding that merv 1 0 is still pretty good. Does the

group disagree?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

--- Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

>

> >

>

>

> Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter.

>

> http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

We do have a kitchen exhaust, although we

only use it for smokier or steamier cooking, not everything.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of bbw

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012

11:55 AM

To: iequality

Subject: RE:

Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Shouldn't Shell have a kitchen exhaust?

:

It is my house. My wife smokes in the house. We have two cats and we

cook a lot. Since I can't get rid of any of those sources of PM isn't

changing expensive filters about all I can do?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

---

[Guest guest]

Does it exhaust outside? Some exhaust inside.We do have a kitchen exhaust, although we

only use it for smokier or steamier cooking, not everything.

Shell Bleiweiss Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss Environmental and OSHA Law Offices in Chicago and Barrington , Illinois sbleiweiss@... http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

[Guest guest]

It exhausts outside.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

--- RE: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

>

> Does it exhaust outside? Some exhaust inside.

>

>

>

> We do have a kitchen exhaust, although we

> only use it for smokier or steamier cooking, not everything.

>

>

>

>

>

> Shell Bleiweiss

>

> Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

>

> Environmental and OSHA Law

>

> Offices in Chicago

> and Barrington , Illinois

>

>

>

> sbleiweiss@...

>

> http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

[Guest guest]

Shell:I don't know if this group will necessarily agree, but I consider a MERV 10 still pretty good.While you have to go to a MERV 13 to capture "less than 75%" of the 0.3 to 1.0 microns size particles,the minimum predicted capture for the 1.0 to 3.0 micron size range is 50% to 64% for the MERV 10,and 80% to 89% for the MERV 12 in this size range.For the 3.0 to 10.0 size range, where most of your mold spores will be, the MERV 10 capture is 85% or better,while the MERV 12 is 90% or better.Still pretty good to me. W. Bearg, PEEnvironmental Health & Building Science.SF6 Tracer Testing Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:54:44 AMSubject: Re: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Jim:

It was my understanding that merv 10 is still pretty good. Does the

group disagree?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

--- Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

>

>

>

>

>

> Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter.

>

> http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/

[Guest guest]

Shell,

You have a very unique name. It must be a great story how your parents arrived at such an unusual name. My daughter’s name is Philadelphia and we call her Della.

Anyway I digress. This subject of HVAC filters is making me crazy. The typical residential duct system is designed as a lifetime system. There are not any provisions for access to clean or repair the ducts. There is not any cleanouts in the ducts, and the cooling coils in the air handler units are very difficult to access for cleaning. If you stand back and consider the system as a whole you will realize that it was never designed to be cleaned, and it is almost always very difficult to access to maintain and repair.

We breathe in about 100 pounds of air each day, and all of it is filtered through our lungs. Sewer lines have cleanouts to clear and inspect the lines, and the water system is purified and regularly tested prior to delivery. But our air supply is completely overlooked by the code authorities in regards to quality.

Debris filters are incorrectly referred to as air filters. In the old days, when the heating systems were developed, the old gravity heating systems were located in the basements, with ducts going up into the various rooms. A debris filter was installed to keep stuff from falling onto the heat exchangers and smoking and catching fire. As the heating systems improved, and fans were installed to move the air, the debris filter was moved to the air inlet, again to stop debris from finding its way onto the heat exchanger and causing similar problems. The debris filters were never designed to filter the air, only to stop the big stuff from causing a fire problem. Just take the typical Merv 5 filter and hold it up to the light and you can easily see through it, and sand will fall right through the filter.

Today with all the heightened awareness of the air quality people are mistakenly trying to install more efficient filters on a system that was never designed to handle filtered air. First, changing the debris filter to a Merv 10 or 12 will probably invalidate the manufacturer’s warranty by changing the air pressure differentials across the system. In addition, if you have a home warranty that is typically purchased through escrow on a resale, again the warranty will be disallowed for failure to follow manufacturer’s installations recommendations. AHHHH…

Next, the typical duct system has a myriad of holes and defects that allow air to leak in and out of the system. So when there is a continual movement of unfiltered air into the duct system that never moves through the filtered inlet. The typical air duct system is only about 75% efficient, meaning 25% of the air is leaking into or out of the system. So it really does not matter how efficient the filter is at the inlet if the rest of the system is dirty, poorly designed, or just plain junk. If you want filtered air, then the entire system must be designed to accommodate the filter design. Oh darn…

1†pleated filters, 2†Merv 10 or 4†Merv 12 are great if the system is designed to accommodate them, but otherwise we are just fooling ourselves into thinking we are filtering the air. Many times it is better to open the windows and air out the home.

And lastly, what is the Merv rating of carpet? Carpet is merely a horizontal filter, so how is it rated? Again carpet is another lifetime system with no consideration for deep cleaning. Carpet is the result of wonderful marketing just like tile roofs, but that argument is for another day.

If you are serious about clean air then the cooling coils must be easily accessible for cleaning, the ducts should have a smooth surface that can be cleaned with cleanouts to allow access. And the ducts should be as short as possible to increase efficiency. The air handlers should be located at a centrally located sealed closet inside the living space. Not in the attic where the system can only be accessed with a considerable effort, and where it becomes little more than a heat exchanger. In my area, attics regularly reach 160 degrees or more in the summer; it makes no sense to put a cooling system in such a hot environment. HVAC systems are an afterthought, to be installed after everything else is installed. They are rarely given the respect they deserve.

Just my little rant. Now I feel better.

Brad Deal

Re: Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

Jim:

It was my understanding that merv 10 is still pretty good. Does the

group disagree?

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

--- Ventilator w MERV 12 filter

>

>

>

>

>

> Found this energy recovery ventilator w a MERV 12 filter.

>

> http://www.ultimateair.com/products/standard-features/