Re: ultrez / pemulen neutralization

[Guest guest]

>i posted this question once already, and after waiting a couple hours

>it still hasn't appeared on the board so i'm sending it again.

>pardon me if it later shows up twice....

I've had the same problem. I though I was alone.

>

>i just bought some ultrez and pemulen and am looking at a chart from

>Noveon which says -- when using TEA to neutralize, the neutralization

>ratio base / carbopol polymer is 1.5/1.0. does this mean that, for

>example, for every 1 gram of ultrez or pemulen, 1.5 grams of TEA is

>needed?

Yes. You probably got this information from " Neutralizing Carbopol and Pemulen

Polymers in Aqueous and Hydro-alcoholic

Systems "

http://www.personalcare.noveoninc.com/techdata/pdf/tds237.pdf

>this is confusing when i look at maurice's cream prototypes, this

>doesn't seem to add up.

Some background first. The cream prototypes that you mention are found in the

CosmeticInfo files area:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo/files/Formula%20Info/Cream1.pdf

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo/files/Formula%20Info/Cream2.pdf

When these cream prototypes were uploaded to the files area in June 2001, I also

sent the following message to the list:

Most of the creams and lotions that we have been discussing on this list have

been made with traditional emulsifiers. There is another

class of emulsifiers call " polymeric emulsifiers " .

http://www.personalcare.noveoninc.com/techdata/pdf/tds114.pdf

You may also want to read:

http://www.personalcare.noveoninc.com/literature/pp_pdf/NovelSkinCaredoc.pdf

http://www.personalcare.noveoninc.com/techdata/pdf/tds237.pdf

The two creams that I suggest are located on my website:

http://www.convergentcosmetics.com/downloads/CosmeticInfoCream1.PDF

http://www.convergentcosmetics.com/downloads/CosmeticInfoCream2.PDF

These formulas use Pemulin TR1 and Ultrez 10. I believe Jen Snider

sells the Pemulin TR1 and Young

handles the Ultrez 10.

The formulas are identical but the compounding procedure is different.

BTW, I've never made these exact formulas, but they should get you real close.

[end of message]

These two formulas prototypes were posted to stimulate discussion and questions

that never seemed to materialize until now.

If you go back to the Noveon document from " Neutralizing Carbopol and Pemulen

Polymers in Aqueous and Hydro-alcoholic

Systems " , you see the following:

" Optimum neutralization is achieved at a pH of 6.5-7.0, but is not necessary. As

demonstrated by the graph, high viscosities can be

achieved in a range of 5.0-9.0.

A common question is " what pH is correct for my finished product? " The answer is

that there is no correct or incorrect pH. pH should

be determined by the desired attributes for a given application.

Viscosity begins to decrease after a pH of 9.0, and will continue to decrease if

the pH is increased. This is due to the dampening of

the electrostatic repulsion caused by the presence of excess electrolytes. It is

possible to achieve high viscosity systems at pH

values below 5 and above 9, but the use level of the Carbopol polymer must be

increased. "

And further on in the same document:

" Figure 4 lists ten of the most common neutralizers used, the manufacturers of

these neutralizers, and the appropriate ratio (as

compared to one part of Carbopol polymers) to use to achieve exact

neutralization at a pH of 7.0. The chart is based on Carbopol "

Ultrez¦ 10, BFGoodrich's newest addition to the Carbopol polymer family, but is

applicable to all Carbopol polymers because they all

have the same equivalent weight of 76 ñ 4. "

As I said in my message of June 22, 2001 and also mentioned on the formula

prototypes themselves, these formulas were never

made. But I should tell you that they are based on formulas that have been sold

nationally.

Now, with all that background and relying on my memory, the level of

Triethanolamine was chosen because it should give you a final

pH that is close to the skin's acid mantle.

Maurice

------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com