ok- analyzing O3 to O6 ratio

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn -and others I hope I can answer on this one post because

I have to run to take my kids to karote!

You want to look at amounts of DHA and EPA alone (both are Omega 3)

in relation to the Omega 6 -with much lower amounts of Omega 6

overall. I don't know personally many parents who have their child

on the Efalex and ProEFA together -so you could try one then the

other and see which works better -most of us found the ProEFA did.

For my son -I now found that ProEFA with a touch of higher EPA and

the carnosine is the best so far -but I've been supplementing Tanner

since three -and he's going to be six next month so we have lots of

experience and time to watch which works. He's at a point now he can

tell us what makes him feel the best. (He calls the ProEFA magic

fish oil and the carnosine magic powder and I have to try not to

laugh!!)

For the new people on this list -please try not to be overwhelmed by

all of our advice -and try to work with your child's doctor

(pediatrician, developmental pediatrician, or pediatric neurologist)

as well as with your child's speech therapist if he or she has one.

When it comes to supplements or any untraditional therapy suggested -

my advice is to start one thing at a time and keep it simple (KIS) so

you really know what is working -and what's not. There are various

supplements or diets that are talked about here do work amazingly

well for some, and some have a better success rate than others. In

general -you may want to consider trying EFAs first since that anecdotally works

for almost all within days to three weeks in general.

If you have your child on ProEFA, Efalex, or Eye Q or some other

Omega 3/6 formula with no other supplements other than a multi

(regular diet and no blood analysis) wait a few weeks to see if there

are any positive changes in speech, motor planning, focus, and

behavior. I would then recommend looking into the carnosine -talk to

your child's doctor about it.

Another way to go is about two to six months later -try changing your

child's diet and see if you notice another surge. You can also try

the blood analysis and see if what the blood analysis recommends

(typically complicated " home chemist " confusing amount of stuff from

what I've heard) is more successful than the Omega 3/6 formula alone

you were using with a child's multi vitamin -or not successful at

all. From one doctor I know that works with Dr. Kane the results of

the blood analysis were no where near as successful as for those who

just used the Omega 3/6 oils without blood analysis -maybe again it

has to do with the blood/brain barrier?

I recommend doing things one at a time so that all variables stay the

same and you can see really what's working and what is worth doing.

I now have my son Tanner on carnosine too -and have switched formulas of

EFAs numerous times -we started various other therapies outside of

traditional speech and occupational therapies like therapeutic

listening and cranial sacral therapy. As long as there is not a risk

to him -and after I both check it with his doctors as well as check

it out myself -I'll try it. We are looking forward to letting him

swim with the dolphins sometime soon. Will that help? Who knows-but

I wish my parents thought I needed it growing up when I watched

Flipper and wanted a dolphin for a pet!! And if we notice a great

surge -how cool will that be?

In general -the only diet changes I always recommend is if you are

going to increase the polyunsaturated fats in your child by

increasing the amount of fish -or supplementation -try to decrease

the amounts of saturated fats when possible since they are

counterproductive. For example -try not to go to fast food places

like Mc 's as often, and when you do go -remove some or most of

the french fries from the Happy Meal before you give them to your

child (without them noticing) Offer your child a cookie, or

something else that is lower in saturated fat, rather than a

doughnut. You know -healthy choices. By doing this you could help

the fish oils to work faster. If the Omega 3/6 supplementation works

alone -you may or may not want to try anything else. If you are in

the small percentage where you do not see a change -you may want to

try other formula's, try blood analysis, or try change in diet -talk

to your doctor or nutritionist.

Again for blood analysis for neurological conditions -based on what

I've seen from our group I'm not 100% convinced it's that important

for most children who are not in a research project. Diets I've

heard can be at times very successful -and other times no. And then

there are those who believed they were amazing, until they stopped

the ProEFA or other EFA...

W. from Westchester NY -the RN who used to be active in our

group before her child was talking who has a child with apraxia and mild CP

started ProEFA the

same time she started a diet recommended by a radio star nutritionist

who they took their child to after two SLPs and two

neurodevelopmental doctors evaluations diagnosed her child as apraxic

with cerebral palsy. Her and her husband used to attend our meetings

in NJ -and her story is on the CHERAB site. (I posted about this

before) Over last summer I was speaking to her husband who was raving

about the special diet their son was on and how they had to throw all

the food away in their house and rebuy it all in the health food

store, how difficult and expensive it is - but how worth it. Because

of this diet he went on - their son was talking and doing amazing.

So I asked " Didn't he also start the ProEFA at the same time as the

diet? " and he said " Oh yeah - thinks that's important...but

this diet.. " (and then went on about the diet again) A few weeks

later after that conversation - and some friends went to the

beach for a week or so and she said that she wanted to get her son

away from therapy and stop everything just to let him be a kid -only

thing she didn't stop was the diet. I guess she didn't think the

EFAs were as important as her husband thought they were to her

because she stopped them too. Her son regressed " so quickly " that

the friends she was with wanted her to " rush her son to the emergency

ward because they thought something was neurologically going wrong

with him " she told me after. She told me " I knew what it was and

told them - it's because I stopped the ProEFA " She put him back and

then he did fine again. I don't know if she knows what we are

finding out about the addition of the higher EPA -or about the

carnosine now -but she's one of the people that educated me about the

cranial sacral therapy that I now love for Tanner and Dakota.

Here is a repost from not that long ago that goes into what you may

see in changes. Keep in mind that just a few days after this post

(was it that long?) -Traci posted about the new words -and she's

been nice enough to be one of the parents now reaching out to help

new people even though she's pretty new herself. So again -thanks to

all of you for not disappearing once your child starts to talk. My

son Tanner is talking and I continue to learn more about how to help

him by staying involved with all of you! There are so many

incredibly knowledgeable people in our group!

As far as results of EFAs for motor planning ability -that's where

most of the research is in comparison to none for speech and EFAs for

some sad reason. Just read The LCP Solution book by Dr. Stordy and

Malcolm Nicholl http://www.drstordy.com or look under " dyspraxia " at

articles like this one:

http://www.equazen.com/newsfile_special_mar2002.htm

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Tue May 7, 2002 12:54 am

Subject: Re: ProEFA results

Aloha Traci!!

(Lucky you in Hawaii!)

I remember when Tanner first started on Efalex, which is the formula

most of us found to be the best before ProEFA was invented, that I

posted to a list one week later that Tanner was going into corners

and whispering sounds to himself. Just like you I asked if this is

normal activity for an apraxic child because I thought it was kind of

strange. I don't remember if anyone answered, however I do know that

one week after that -so two weeks after starting the Efalex- is when

Tanner said " lellow " for the first time. I posted that it was like

Bambi when he learned to say " flower " and instead of saying flower -

Tanner walked around looking for things to call " lellow " -he was

just as excited as us to be talking!! What's most amazing about this

is that prior to supplementation Tanner was in therapy 2 to 3 times a

week one on one for half hour to 45 minute sessions for about 5

months and had learned in that time to blow bubbles, make more facial

movements, say simple sounds like " ch " or " ooo " with lots of

encouragement and animation -however he still was not able to take

the " ch " and the " ooo " and put them together to say " choo " His only

words essentially at 2 years 10 months prior to EFAs were " mmmm "

and " ma " -and this was with lots of therapy. Just two weeks later

was a world of difference.

I don't know exactly why your child is moving her mouth in unusual

positions, or groping -however to me any changes outside the norm

when you

start

your child on the EFAs is a great sign that something is clicking and

that the surge may be soon approaching. (Please let us know when you

see the surge in speech in the next week or two!)

Since I receive lots of calls about this -I wanted to list the most

common changes in an apraxic or other speech disordered child on EFAs

from what I've read and heard and seen.

1. Increase in babbling or attempts at sounds.

2. Increase in imitation.

Changes also can be looked for in (what you see as positive or

negative)

sleep

attention

appetite

focus

behavior

stools

Next will come a breakthrough of something you were probably working

on for a bit -so you will be excited but will think " Well -I don't

want to get my hopes up we were working on that for awhile now -maybe

it's just a coincidence " However after the second or third surge in

a short period of time -and then another - you are pretty sure things

are different and it's at this point the professionals and the rest

of the family and your friends are noticing it too -maybe about two

to three weeks now.

OK -the next stage is pure elation and hope -you see the light and no

longer feel as desperate and want to share this new information with

everyone and anyone. As the months go by and your child continues to

progress at a much more rapid rate -you may even start to doubt the

original diagnosis -especially if you started EFA supplementation at

two -and perhaps the SLP that diagnosed the apraxia who also was at

first excited is starting to second guess if the original diagnosis

was correct as well. Unless you have to stop the ProEFA (or other

Essential Fatty Acid) and literally have the chance to see the

regression of acquired speech and language skills, attempts, and

changes in behavior like we did with Tanner (and/or have a chance to

again witness the second surge when your child is put back on the

EFAs) -that doubt will probably remain somewhere in your mind and in

others around your child. So the " I told you that he would start

talking when he was ready " comments should be expected of course.

Up to this point is understandable to me -it's the point after this

that is confusing to me, and perhaps not the best stage for our

children and for raising awareness or having research done to find

out what is happening to our children and why. Perhaps because we

have truly hit a paradigm shift.

" paradigm shift (pair uh dime shift) 1. a profound and

irreversible change to a different model of behavior or perception.

2. an epiphany with staying power. 3. a sea change of such magnitude

that it alters the course of all who pass through it. "

As Dr. Agin states the EFAs actually appear to be in some

ways " curing " the apraxic child -even those diagnosed with severe

oral and verbal apraxia, hypotonia, sensory and behavioral issues.

Especially those started at younger ages.

The child on ProEFA or some other EFA formula's like it no longer

fits the criteria of the classic definition of apraxia -and yet

doesn't fit the classic perception of what a late talker is either.

When this new group of parents reflect on the many (in most cases now

two to three years) of intensive therapy - they appear to forget that

years ago the apraxia diagnosis meant years and years of intensive

therapy that went into and through school years -as many of the

parents of older apraxic children can remind us of. For new parents

on the list they even at times forget to mention the EFAs and only

credit therapy or the therapist that happened to be with the child at

the time -you would have to know them or check the archives to know

that, so new to the list parents don't know. To read the list now a

days it appears that you don't always need a knowledgeable, or

experienced therapist to help your severely apraxic child. We all

know that may be true some of the time -but to give that advice on a

world wide list and leave out the rest of the details?

Some of the parents become more focused on other everyday activities

with their child and start to drift away from the support sources

(for those who ask why there appears to be trouble with support

groups in the US and outside the US now a days) I found it amazing

that at the New Jersey Speech Hearing Association Conference that a

higher than average number of the parents that attended had children

that did not respond to ProEFA. Basically only parents that were

still desperate for help for their child, or new parents showed up.

Problem with this attitude is that unless your child is really up to

speed on all aspects of speech and language, the support sources that

helped in the beginning will still benefit your child today. ProEFA

alone is not the only answer and until we know how and why it works

we can't improve on it.

My son Tanner will be six this June -is now able to talk back and

forth and explain what he wants -order for himself at a restaurant

and be understood by a stranger, and ask people their name or if they

want to play a certain game and carry on a conversation with other

children or adults. Most people don't know there is

something " wrong " with his speech because he tends to keep most of

his sentences shorter with words he is sure of -however he can talk

in longer sentences here and there and use words that are new and

harder to pronounce -and you'll hear the breakdown a bit more then.

I too am very grateful to the therapists, teachers and doctors who

have helped Tanner along the way. I am grateful for opportunities to

learn more such as this weekend when I just learned so much from

and all the experts at the NJSHA conference for social and

academic or educational strategies to further help Tanner and my

other son Dakota. And last but not at all least I too am very

grateful to grouplists such as this one for it was on a grouplist

like this that I first learned about EFAs and that they have helped

other children with apraxia -if it wasn't for that -most of you today

wouldn't know about it. Together we really can make a difference

as long as we keep learning and sharing.

(PS And on a final note -please do not just go by the name of the

product which means nothing without a trademark -and it's hard to

trademark EFA since it's a word anyone can use. ProEFA the product

name is used by various companies -the formula is the only thing that

matters -and in most cases it's the formula that contains various

amounts of DHA and EPA with smaller amounts of GLA (Omega 3 and Omega

6) that we have seen works the best for our children. Most have

found the Nordic Naturals ProEFA to be the best. Complete EFA sold

at GNC is not at all the same formula as ProEFA which you can even

see online -the Nordic Naturals line called Complete Omega Ultimate

Omega is the commercial and slightly more expensive line than the

ProEFA professional line -but the exact same formula. Again just

check the formula dosages. And on a final note -for those that

believe the ProEFA is stinky -go buy the Efalex or just about any

other fish oil and compare -you'll never call ProEFA stinky again. I

guess we all hope Roche manufactures their odorless and tasteless

Omega 3 and Omega 6 product that I posted about a few weeks ago out

to all of us soon though!!!)

=====

[Guest guest]

As I've posted one week has been amazing on EFAs.

Here is what I found in analyzing what my son is getting though. He is getting

too many O3s in ratio to O6. So, I'm thinking instead of more proEFA and less of

the Efalex, he should actually have it reversed.

His diet is horrible and the only fat he gets is minimal in vanilla custard and

some yogurt. He's reduced his desire for yogurt lately which was adding a whole

10 grams of fat to him each day. His custard has 3 grams of fat per jar and he

eats about 4 jars at most a day. So, that means if we have a 4 custard day and a

1 yogurt day, he is getting a whopping 12 grams of fat total per day. His dr

said he should be more like 20 grams of fat a day. He weighs over 30 lbs and is

over 37 inches at age 2.

So, I broke down the EFA's by O3 and O6 in his supplements. He is getting- if i

did my math and EFAs right- 1,190 mg of O3 and 674 mg of O6. This is not the

ratio that a healthy body should have.

So what I'm thinking is more Efalex and lower dose of proEFA.

And, once again I hope I translated everything right- please correct me anyone

if i haven't-

Efalex then has :

120 mg of O3

234.5 mg of O6

and proEFA has:

535 mg of O3

220 mg O6

Can anyone tell me if I'm correct on that? And, how would you all suggest

getting more O6 in him? Would you simply add some soft butter, or margarine to

his food? or would you supplement with O6????

TIA

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Lynn, Essential fats are in two families: Omega 6 and Omega 3

but the families themselves contain more than one fatty acid

Omega 6 Family: Linoleic (safflower and sunflower oil)

Gamma Linoleic (primrose oil, borage oil)

Arachidonic (egg yolk, butter, cream, meat

fat)

Omega 3 Family: Alpha Linolenic (flax oil, walnut oil)

EPA (fish oil or fish)

DHA (fish oil or fish)

You want to include all these sources in both diet and supplements.

Believe it or not Haagendaz ice cream has essential fats in it!

Arachidonic. The brain is 12% arachidonic.

I add sunflower or safflower oil to my son's food, ground flax seeds.

He eats meat, cream, cheese and I mix eggs in wherever I can

because he doesn't like the texture of scrambled eggs. I add extra

egg yolks to meatloaf, milkshakes, cookie or pancake batter.

Custard is good because it has eggs and milk in it so there

are some essential fats there. Maybe pick up some cold

pressed sunflower or safflower oil (Flora) and mix it into sauces

or natural mayo or even ketchup or maple syrup! Start with

a teaspoon at a time and work up to 2 tablespoons.

I use lots of ground nuts and seeds in meatloaf, pancake and

cookie batter too like almonds, pecans, walnuts, sunflower

seeds.

Margarine and hydrogenated fats are altered so that they

don't contain essential fats and they work against the

essential fats. They act like plastic in cell membranes

so that is out of the diet.

For supplements the Nordic Naturals ProEFA is probably the

best because it has both omega 3s (EPA and DHA) and omega

6 (gamma linolenic GLA). We use Nordic Naturals new cod liver

oil but before that I used Nordic Naturals DHA Junior. Both are

cod liver oil but the new cod liver oil is alot easier than squeezing

out all those little capsules! We also use evening primrose oil-

4 capsules of the high potency (130 mg GLA). That tastes ok

so I just mix that in food. Nordic Naturals has different products

that you could try like ProEPA that is higher in EPA and lower

in DHA (that is the opposite of what I use). You could try that

and buy separately either borage oil or primrose oil under the

brand name Health From the Sun in the health food store.

Its not a good idea to just add in a supplement with one fatty

acid in it like the DHA from algae. Much better to use fish

oil for omega 3 and primrose or borage for omega 6. But dont

forget to use eggs, butter, cream, sunflower or safflower oil

for the other part of the omega 6 family in the diet. It is all

so confusing I know!

Best,

[Guest guest]

So, is using sunflower or safflower better than canola? My

nutritionist told me to start using canola for cooking. Can you use

the " s " oils for cooking? I have tried flax oil, but everyone hates

the taste (even me). Do the " s " oils have a taste like the flax oil?

Thanks, Traci

> Lynn, Essential fats are in two families: Omega 6 and Omega 3

> but the families themselves contain more than one fatty acid

> Omega 6 Family: Linoleic (safflower and sunflower oil)

> Gamma Linoleic (primrose oil, borage oil)

> Arachidonic (egg yolk, butter, cream,

meat

> fat)

>

> Omega 3 Family: Alpha Linolenic (flax oil, walnut oil)

> EPA (fish oil or fish)

> DHA (fish oil or fish)

>

> You want to include all these sources in both diet and supplements.

> Believe it or not Haagendaz ice cream has essential fats in it!

> Arachidonic. The brain is 12% arachidonic.

> I add sunflower or safflower oil to my son's food, ground flax

seeds.

> He eats meat, cream, cheese and I mix eggs in wherever I can

> because he doesn't like the texture of scrambled eggs. I add extra

> egg yolks to meatloaf, milkshakes, cookie or pancake batter.

> Custard is good because it has eggs and milk in it so there

> are some essential fats there. Maybe pick up some cold

> pressed sunflower or safflower oil (Flora) and mix it into sauces

> or natural mayo or even ketchup or maple syrup! Start with

> a teaspoon at a time and work up to 2 tablespoons.

> I use lots of ground nuts and seeds in meatloaf, pancake and

> cookie batter too like almonds, pecans, walnuts, sunflower

> seeds.

>

> Margarine and hydrogenated fats are altered so that they

> don't contain essential fats and they work against the

> essential fats. They act like plastic in cell membranes

> so that is out of the diet.

>

> For supplements the Nordic Naturals ProEFA is probably the

> best because it has both omega 3s (EPA and DHA) and omega

> 6 (gamma linolenic GLA). We use Nordic Naturals new cod liver

> oil but before that I used Nordic Naturals DHA Junior. Both are

> cod liver oil but the new cod liver oil is alot easier than

squeezing

> out all those little capsules! We also use evening primrose oil-

> 4 capsules of the high potency (130 mg GLA). That tastes ok

> so I just mix that in food. Nordic Naturals has different products

> that you could try like ProEPA that is higher in EPA and lower

> in DHA (that is the opposite of what I use). You could try that

> and buy separately either borage oil or primrose oil under the

> brand name Health From the Sun in the health food store.

> Its not a good idea to just add in a supplement with one fatty

> acid in it like the DHA from algae. Much better to use fish

> oil for omega 3 and primrose or borage for omega 6. But dont

> forget to use eggs, butter, cream, sunflower or safflower oil

> for the other part of the omega 6 family in the diet. It is all

> so confusing I know!

> Best,

[Guest guest]

Traci, there is so much wrong with canola, I don't know where to

begin. Best stick with cold-pressed oils, that are protected

from sunlight. Oils like any food can go bad, and sunlight is

their enemy, heat can destroy an oil. We cook with coconut oil.

It can take high temperatures, butter, as long as it doesn't

burn, is fine too. Dr.Kane use to have some materials that if

you called that they would send them to you for free, and she

has all the information on which oils are best, which are

harmful. We varied, the sunflower, sesame, safflower in his

diet. He didn't get all of those in one day, I would just alternate

them.

, I believe it is the egg yolk that has the fatty acids,

and the white I think has biotin, which kids need too. Avocados

are another good source of fatty acids, I think, there is some

good reason why they should eat them. I have whole list that

I keep on the refrigerator. I will see if I can find it typed

in somewhere and I will send it to the list.

Best,

roddyt001 wrote:

>

> So, is using sunflower or safflower better than canola? My

> nutritionist told me to start using canola for cooking. Can you use

> the " s " oils for cooking? I have tried flax oil, but everyone hates

> the taste (even me). Do the " s " oils have a taste like the flax oil?

> Thanks, Traci

[Guest guest]

thanks so much for the information. I actually read a bit further and

found some of this out. It took a trip to the gym where no interruptions

occurred to look it all over again.

He is extremely picky, ketchup and sauces would be a dream to me, if he would

eat them. He is still on baby foods, but not a well-balanced diet at all. He

drinks nothing but water. I am thinking of trying to add scrambled eggs in with

his custard since we have him tolerating some texture in that now. However, then

I will loose the rice cereal in it, which provides his only source of iron.

sigh. It's really complicated with him.

I do know that ECI has offered a nutritionist before due to his extreme habits.

I think I am going to take one!

I'm going to try some of what you have suggested and see what i can get to work.

I did give him some primrose oil in his custard tonight. But he seriously gets a

very very limited amount of any fats in his diet without supplements. Very

frustrating!

Thanks again!

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Ok I bought some saffflower oil today and it has vitamin E in it. It

says for baking on the bottle. So does that mean I can use it in

recipes in the oven like muffins or in homemade salad dressings

(like italian), but not for stove top cooking? Sorry to sound stupid

I am just so confused on these oils. Like one person told me I could

not use flax oil for cooking or baking and another told me they use

it for baking.

Thanks, Traci

> >

> > So, is using sunflower or safflower better than canola? My

> > nutritionist told me to start using canola for cooking. Can you

use

> > the " s " oils for cooking? I have tried flax oil, but everyone

hates

> > the taste (even me). Do the " s " oils have a taste like the flax

oil?

> > Thanks, Traci