Re: Something from Nothing

[Guest guest]

Sam Patron:

Be aware of my choices? Oh, I dunno ... obsessions somehow allow for at

least the appearance of providing its victims a choice. There's this

beauty thing that gets involved, too. At times, the more athletic of us

see climbing as a

conquest; not being an athlete, I don't think I ever did. Not, in any

event, deliberately. Now then: what has Jung to say about such an

impulse, eh?

Dr

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/2002 8:51:36 AM Central Daylight Time,

kearny2@... writes:

> Ah-h ... not the poor, but the meek, you say, will inherit the Earth.

Yes, but I wish I could say I originated the quote. Alas, 'tis not mine.

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar

A closed mind is a good thing to lose.

" Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. "

~Ben Ostrowsky

[Guest guest]

Dear fa,

Now what did I say to make you so mad?

I said Uriah Heep was not a symbol of humility, but what people usually

refer to or think humility is.-

NOw what the h--- was the rest of that about about??? I take it you are

affronted by something I wrote?

" fa (who kids you not - if you think I lost it with Ghazaleh, you ain't

> seen nothing yet) "

Give me your interpretation of the word " humility " or " humble "

Mine has to do with reality, which means I am not in control of the universe

and I must submit my ego to the Self.

What has an analyst to do with this subject? Most of them know they don't

have all the answers. When you admit vulnerbility you are humble.

I never said, by the way, that one must become a doormat for the rest of the

human race. The obverse is also true however.

Analysist of the Jungian persuation know just how vulnerable they aer with

the kind of patient you describe.Sitting there and taking it ,is a sign of

mature understanding, and has nothing to do with humility and everything to

do with trying to " accept " the sometimes unacceptable.

Judaism also preaches, as the Book of Job illustrates that the proud ego is

in trouble with the Self . For example " Where were you when I created the

world? " G-d's question , and Judaism also preaches humility before

G-d...which by the way, is exactly what I was talking about.

Look where overweaning pride got King Saul...he ended up looney.

I didn't dream all this up, you know. I just struggled a life time with the

idea. The ego just must not win, at least with me.

Toni

To: <JUNG-FIRE >

Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 12:14 PM

Subject: Re: Something from Nothing

>

> Dear Toni,

>

> True humility has nothing to do with Uriah Heep, and can only be born out

of

> a healthy self-confidence (not conceit). Imagine being a Jungian analyst.

> Not all your patients come with neatly-typed dreams and love the very

bones

> of you. They hurl abuse and throw all your love back in your face - and

you

> have to sit there and be secure enough in yourself to love them through

all

> of it.

>

> If my analyst weren't a truly lovely person, she'd be praying I get the

> practice from hell as Nemesis!

>

>> fa

[Guest guest]

Dear Toni,

Huh? I wasn't mad with you at all! Oh, I see - you thought I was threatening

to lose it with you? Never in this world, I hope - I was just saying that

the temper I displayed with that previous list member was actually pretty

mild in comparison with what I'm capable of (which I hope you never see. It

isn't pretty).

Sorry for the misunderstanding

fa

[Guest guest]

fa, my dear

I think you are just blowing hot air.....you're not dangerous at all, I

think. Just opinionated like me. Have you ever thrown things? I bet I used

to brow beat anyone with my nasty sarcasm better than you.

I have just become such a whimp...it just isn't fun anymore and Ii can't

work up a rage anymore either. What a peaceful life I lead nowadays...must

be old age?

love you,

Toni

Re: Something from Nothing

>

> Dear Toni,

>

> Huh? I wasn't mad with you at all! Oh, I see - you thought I was

threatening

> to lose it with you? Never in this world, I hope - I was just saying that

> the temper I displayed with that previous list member was actually pretty

> mild in comparison with what I'm capable of (which I hope you never see.

It

> isn't pretty).

>

> Sorry for the misunderstanding

> fa

>

[Guest guest]

Dan, what is that?

you wrote:

" if I lost my Dynaco A-25's, then I'd be upset! ;-).

Hate to miss out on a good line???

Toni

Re: Something from Nothing

> >

> > > Dear Greg,

> > >

> > > You wrote:

> > >

> > > > I thought some in the group would enjoy this piece.

> > > > It adds a bit of humor to an otherwise distressing

> > > > political and economic landscape in the doldrums of

> > > > summer, 2002. My apologies to those on the list who

> > > > live outside the US - the sarcastic nuance may not be

> > > > easily understood.

> > > >

> > > > Enjoy and happy birthday USA,

> > > >

> > > > Greg

> > > >

> > >

> > > I bought Martha at about 19, so I'm not laughing - well, OK, I

am,

> > a little bit.

> > > Oh Martha, Martha - tell me it isn't so ! :-).

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

> > > Dan

> > >

> > >

> > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby

beings

> > may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

> > >

> > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Toni,

You wrote:

> Dan, what is that?

> you wrote:

> " if I lost my Dynaco A-25's, then I'd be upset! ;-).

>

> Hate to miss out on a good line???

See pic @ http://www.gis.net/~slbender/vintage.html

Yes, I know I'm a total geek.

My current stable includes Dynaco A-25's, Meadowlark Kestrals, Pioneer

CSA-500's, Wharfedale 70's, Celestion 3's, Spica TC-50's, Klipsch LaScala's,

Rectilinear Mini-III's, Sansui SP-50's, as well as a pair of Athena

mini-monitors for the TV (Athena was also the goddess of hifi - little known

fact), and Cambridge Sound Works Ensemble IV Satellites for the truck.

About time to cull the herd, I think.

Best regards,

Dan

>

[Guest guest]

Frances :

Thank you for your response. Please ... what do you mean in your various

messages by the term 'in the dance'?

Dr.

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[Guest guest]

Toni Priest:

This is my THIRD attempt to provide the list with my biog. I dunno, but

every time I pound the keys the screen decides to go phffft just before I

sign Dr at the bottom. Let's see how far Juno.com permits me to

go THIS time ---

My doctorate comes from Universitate Wien, Austria, 1950, in

International Law. I hold an undergrad degree in the usual Bus Ad from

Denver Univ, done in a post-WWII overcrowded college with too many

returned GIs. I did it in only

3-yrs which tells how bad 'higher' education had suffered under democracy

-- I should never have been accepted for

university training, being - at best - a low C student most of my life.

Once finished in Vienna, I conned a job with the

American diplomacy for the simple reason that (a) I was standing there

and then and they needed a clerk quick, (

I was a so-so typist, worth my weight in gold, © I wasn't yet another

poly-sci major with a snotty attitude, (d) I didn't drink or smoke, but

ye gads those Austrian pasteries! Auch, ich spreckt etwas Deutsch from

the gutter.

For two glorious years, I climbed the Alps (yes, yes, Matterhorn; but not

to the summit - an avalancbe cut the climb short) and I skied -- hoo boy

did I ski! Bad Gastein, Davos, etc. all the famous spas. I was stationed

at magnificent

Salzburg, the German Rome with 27 major churches, the Festpielhaus, the

Mozarteum, and the Salzach River to launch my 2-man kayak downstream to

the Inn and Danube for a 3-day whitewater tumble into Linz. Once each

month I met my French (a drunk) British (snobbish), and Russian (nice guy

named, would you believe Raskalnikov, Lizavita's murderer in

Doestioveski's masterpiece Crime and Punishment. There I attended both

the

Volkesoper on the Warringerstr. for operettas (Die Fledermaus and

everybody in the audience joining in) and the

Wieneroper, temporarily performing in Theatre am der Wien because the

Opera House itself had been bombed.

I bicycled everywhere, even fell asleep while pedalling in 3rd speed and

crashed into the lowered tailgate of a parked truck - 10-days in hospital

with a gashed knee. My bicycle also took me across Northern Italy, from

Brenner

Pass to Venice.

Return to New York because of my foster-mohter's death (I'm an adoptee --

nee Philip Kearny, 1927) and married a

neighborhood girl who - somehow - has put up with me lo these 49-yrs

past. We have one son aged 41, a backstage techie on Broadway. I have

lived these past 35 yrs in my old neighborhood, just across from my

parent's

home on a tree lined street of once 1-family homes, now ethnic 'boarding

houses' where is spoken Haitian creole

and Dominican Spanish. We have been burglarized 9-time, my wife with a

knife at her throat the first time, and me with a permanently damaged

shoulder during the second invasion ('Whay yo money, mahn, whay yo

money?')

The first 12-yrs of our marriage were spent in a house I bought in

Denver, full view of whole Front Range of the Rockies. Yes, climbing and

skiing of course ... and Lauritz Melchoir at Red Rocks natural

ampitheater singing The

Blue Bird of Happiness. From Denver to Ireland on a client's business,

then more of same in Northumberland.

I retired at age 58. Willy-nilly, I began self-taught sketching -

sketching anything, but mostly boats, buildings, bodies,

and beaches - so-so drawing that, along with downright awful watercolors

I had 7 one-man exhibitions of 154 pix

in public libraries. And too, I accidentally (long story) auditioned for

My Fair Lady and landed the role of Col. Pickering (The Rain In Spain).

In five years, I appeared in principal roles plus one lead (the Irish

drama 'Da'); with

waning memory I now do dramatic readings, getting a good review in The

New Yorker magazine Dec. 18th 2001.

My more recent appearance was as Nicolo Machiavelli for an Italian

Language Council.

I still ride the bicycle at age 75 .... most days, weather permitting,

12-miules non-stop in one hour. How's THAT!

On the Catholic commonweal & yahoogroup.com, I am known as The Happy

Heretic. I haunt both Mets, the Opera and the Museum on the cheap, and

get in for orchestra concerts at Carnagie Hall. I'm a terrible speller.

Now then, Toni Priest .... Whom Are Yewwwww?

Dr

________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Nah-ja, Toni Priest!!!

I just this minute completed my answer to your immediate-preceding

posting asking who I was. Now I know -- a little.

Wien -- Wien -- nur Du alein, right?

Servus

Dr

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/2002 6:30:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

kearny2@... writes:

> At times, the more athletic of us

> see climbing as a

> conquest; not being an athlete, I don't think I ever did. Not, in any

> event, deliberately. Now then: what has Jung to say about such an

> impulse, eh?

>

I'm afraid that this is one the Jung students, one of which I am not, will

have to answer.

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar

A closed mind is a good thing to lose.

" Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. "

~Ben Ostrowsky

[Guest guest]

Lieber Herr Dr. ,

Sie haben geschrieben:

> I did it in only

> 3-yrs which tells how bad 'higher' education had suffered under democracy

Ich meine Ich mag' Sie :-).

Dan Watkins

[Guest guest]

Dan Watkins:

Nein, nein ... nur eine 'booben' in 1947. Anyhow, undergrad studies at

Bowling Green State Univ in Ohio for 2-yrs

seemed like rural high school, and transferring credits to Denver Univ.

doing 2-yrs in only one, even moreso. Gott

Sie dank fur gebergen.

Dr

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[Guest guest]

Think T.S. Eliot's stillpoint, the dancer and the dance.

in the dance,

Frances

> From: kearny2@...

> Reply-To: JUNG-FIRE

> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:01:19 -0400

> To: JUNG-FIRE

> Subject: Re: Something from Nothing

>

> Frances :

>

> Thank you for your response. Please ... what do you mean in your various

> messages by the term 'in the dance'?

>

> Dr.

>

> ________________________________________________________________

> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may

> be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sam, Dr. , et al:

> At times, the more athletic of us

> see climbing as a

> conquest; not being an athlete, I don't think I ever did. Not, in any

> event, deliberately. Now then: what has Jung to say about such an

> impulse, eh?

>

I'm afraid that this is one the Jung students, one of which I am not, will

have to answer.

Jung and von Franz had quite a lot to say about climbing (living in

mountainous Switzerland, it's not really surprising). They saw it as part of

the " puer aeternus " syndrome. Basically, puers feel themselves to be

immortal, and therefore take enormous risks, frequently dicing with death.

Jung once cautioned a colleage who had dreamt that he leapt off a mountain

and was enjoying the feeling of being in the air. The colleague laughed at

him. A few months later, he and a friend fell to their deaths by climbing.

fa

[Guest guest]

Frances :

Thanks .... but go a few steps further, since I don't read poetry and my

knowledge of T. S. Eliot is limited to an appearance in his Murder In The

Cathedral (rather awful -- performed in a church with echoing floors and

loft; the

poor audience). I'm guessing - onlhy that - that your dancer has

something to do with The Wasteland.

Dr

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[Guest guest]

pha:

Ah-h ... many thanks! The immortal-thinking climber reminds me of those

poor Nazi mountaineers on the face of the

Eiger during the '30s, although good climbers as they most certainly

were, and knowing risks as they did, I rather believe they did the Eiger

because Hitler wanted it to present to the 1936 Olympic judges more than

the climbers themselves wanted immortality. So much for Jung's 'puers

aetemus' (translate for me?). As for Jung's pal who dreamed of leaping

off a ledge and then later died in a climbing accident, such a dream

might well be blamed on

too much wine plus every climbers occassional vertigo.

My own experience with the immortal side of climbing is not that I am

immortal, but that the greatness of God is. A peculiar attitude for a

happy heretic, nes pas?

Dr

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[Guest guest]

Dear Catholic heretic, artist, and graduate of the University of

Vienna...and all your other accomplishments,

I left Vienna at the age of 8, because Hitler didn't think I had a right to

live...which dampens one's enthusiasm, especially when my father who was an

officer in the cavalry in WW1 was declared no longer tobe a citizen of

Austria.

My father too went to the University of Vienna and became " Doctor " as did my

aunt...just barely, before they decided she was not worthy of an education

(though she did get her degree) before fleeing.My mother got her education

in Switzerland.

So, after long and dangerous wandering we made it to the US. I have been

back to Vienna 3 times, the last to show my children the place where I grew

up went to school and the Rathouse park where I played.

We spent 5 years in Germany ( 1984-89) after I retired, and amazingly had a

wonderful time. My mother and father spoke German at home, I answered in

English.The German came back, though it got some help from my German classes

at .

Didn't find a Nazi anywhere...amazing isn't it? Everyone assured me they

loved the Jews and protected them. At least in Vienna they admit and are

rather proud of their millennium long dislike of those Jews in their

population.I never told anyone I was Jewish, but being an American born in

Vienna, I guess they figured it out.I was baptized (by the cardinal

archbishop of Vienna along with all my family in 1937. I didn't save us ,

but I became ,as did my sister fervent Catholics.

I ,however, left twice. Once to the Episcopal church because my mother felt

all Irishmen especially priests were uneducated and narrow-minded so she

decided on an Episcopal upbringing and a Quaker school for me. Went back to

the Church because I thought I had a vocation then met the man I have loved

and married for 46 years. But I was back with a vengeance all the way,

including the Charismatic Renewal,Eucharistic minister, lector, and all

around helper, and a husband who studied (I had to go to class too ) to beco

me a deacon. He not me ,since you obviously know the ridiculous ban on women

anything but subservient nuns in the Church.

I was an officer in the US Marines for 4 years,before I met my Air Force

husband, then married and had 4children ( 2 adopted)

I was a teacher for 20 years, grade 6 through college, (even taught religion

at the catholic high school, )then became a public librarian which I also

loved.

In Germany, I taught American soldiers on their missile sites, in Japan I

taught Japanese girls in a Catholic school, Tokyo University students, and

nuns English.

(My husband was an Air Force officer and pilot for 31 years which is how

come we landed in Japan. He retired from the military in 1974 and has had 2

more careers, and many more degrees since then.)

Also decided to take up painting (oils)and had a marvelous Japanese teacher.

Once I retired at age 57, I took up painting as a full time occupation.

Sold pretty well as long as I painted scenery, but switched to

abstract-impressionism (sort of) and now everyone wonders what the hell they

are looking at. Have sold very few, but still exhibit.

Now no longer interested in selling ,

Also left the Church and all organized religion in 1987 and am much more at

peace now.and paint whatever comes out of my unconscious.

I am only 70, but walking and swimming are just my speed

My preference is the living couch and a book with a dachund on my lap. I do

love to garden, except during heat waves, and I have 4 grandchildren here

(out of 9) who come most days with lots of teenage boys to swim (and eat)

Summer is not exactly quiet , and the house is always full...I sometimes

don't even know their names

With 3 teenage girls ,who ,not just I ,but everyone says are beautiful (they

take after my husband) there are always lots of cars, lots of boys and girls

wandering around and opening our refrigerator which my husband restocks

almost daily,

I began reading Jung after my tearful departure from Holy Mother Church and

have been at it ever since. I had there marvelous experience of Jungian

analysis for 8 years during which I wrote my autobiography to explain so

much that needed explaining to my family.

Well, there you have it. Its been interesting and marvelous and scary and

difficult, but what a life so far!

Toni

PS We have a love of skiing which we share, and painting, I note. But I

never lived anywhere for more than 10 years if that. I also admire your

ability to sing and act. I would be hopeless at either.

I am much more of an introvert nowadays, but I was always inclined in that

direction.

JUNG-FIRE >

Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 6:44 PM

Subject: Re: Something from Nothing

> Toni Priest:

>

> This is my THIRD attempt to provide the list with my biog. I dunno, but

> every time I pound the keys the screen decides to go phffft just before I

> sign Dr at the bottom. Let's see how far Juno.com permits me to

> go THIS time ---

>

> My doctorate comes from Universitate Wien, Austria, 1950, in

> International Law. I hold an undergrad degree in the usual Bus Ad from

> Denver Univ, done in a post-WWII overcrowded college with too many

> returned GIs. I did it in only

> 3-yrs which tells how bad 'higher' education had suffered under democracy

> -- I should never have been accepted for

> university training, being - at best - a low C student most of my life.

> Once finished in Vienna, I conned a job with the

> American diplomacy for the simple reason that (a) I was standing there

> and then and they needed a clerk quick, (

> I was a so-so typist, worth my weight in gold, © I wasn't yet another

> poly-sci major with a snotty attitude, (d) I didn't drink or smoke, but

> ye gads those Austrian pasteries! Auch, ich spreckt etwas Deutsch from

> the gutter.

>

> For two glorious years, I climbed the Alps (yes, yes, Matterhorn; but not

> to the summit - an avalancbe cut the climb short) and I skied -- hoo boy

> did I ski! Bad Gastein, Davos, etc. all the famous spas. I was stationed

> at magnificent

> Salzburg, the German Rome with 27 major churches, the Festpielhaus, the

> Mozarteum, and the Salzach River to launch my 2-man kayak downstream to

> the Inn and Danube for a 3-day whitewater tumble into Linz. Once each

> month I met my French (a drunk) British (snobbish), and Russian (nice guy

> named, would you believe Raskalnikov, Lizavita's murderer in

> Doestioveski's masterpiece Crime and Punishment. There I attended both

> the

> Volkesoper on the Warringerstr. for operettas (Die Fledermaus and

> everybody in the audience joining in) and the

> Wieneroper, temporarily performing in Theatre am der Wien because the

> Opera House itself had been bombed.

> I bicycled everywhere, even fell asleep while pedalling in 3rd speed and

> crashed into the lowered tailgate of a parked truck - 10-days in hospital

> with a gashed knee. My bicycle also took me across Northern Italy, from

> Brenner

> Pass to Venice.

>

> Return to New York because of my foster-mohter's death (I'm an adoptee --

> nee Philip Kearny, 1927) and married a

> neighborhood girl who - somehow - has put up with me lo these 49-yrs

> past. We have one son aged 41, a backstage techie on Broadway. I have

> lived these past 35 yrs in my old neighborhood, just across from my

> parent's

> home on a tree lined street of once 1-family homes, now ethnic 'boarding

> houses' where is spoken Haitian creole

> and Dominican Spanish. We have been burglarized 9-time, my wife with a

> knife at her throat the first time, and me with a permanently damaged

> shoulder during the second invasion ('Whay yo money, mahn, whay yo

> money?')

> The first 12-yrs of our marriage were spent in a house I bought in

> Denver, full view of whole Front Range of the Rockies. Yes, climbing and

> skiing of course ... and Lauritz Melchoir at Red Rocks natural

> ampitheater singing The

> Blue Bird of Happiness. From Denver to Ireland on a client's business,

> then more of same in Northumberland.

>

> I retired at age 58. Willy-nilly, I began self-taught sketching -

> sketching anything, but mostly boats, buildings, bodies,

> and beaches - so-so drawing that, along with downright awful watercolors

> I had 7 one-man exhibitions of 154 pix

> in public libraries. And too, I accidentally (long story) auditioned for

> My Fair Lady and landed the role of Col. Pickering (The Rain In Spain).

> In five years, I appeared in principal roles plus one lead (the Irish

> drama 'Da'); with

> waning memory I now do dramatic readings, getting a good review in The

> New Yorker magazine Dec. 18th 2001.

> My more recent appearance was as Nicolo Machiavelli for an Italian

> Language Council.

>

> I still ride the bicycle at age 75 .... most days, weather permitting,

> 12-miules non-stop in one hour. How's THAT!

>

> On the Catholic commonweal & yahoogroup.com, I am known as The Happy

> Heretic. I haunt both Mets, the Opera and the Museum on the cheap, and

> get in for orchestra concerts at Carnagie Hall. I'm a terrible speller.

>

> Now then, Toni Priest .... Whom Are Yewwwww?

>

> Dr

>

> ________________________________________________________________

> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gnedige Grossmutter Priest::

My esteem and my congratulations -- also one correction about your

reading my biog: madam, I don't sing - I carry a tune and yell. There's

a difference. In community theater, warm bodies get a part; for

Off-B'way we get encouraged to handle the curtains and scenery if the

role involves 'voice'. My last musical but one, Leonard Bernstein's

Wonderful Town (My Sister Eileen put to music and very successfully so) I

was the Irish-cop-with-thick-brogue and had to join the boys and girls

doing - s'elp me! - The ton and The Irish Jig. At age 72, my

knees and back took a month to recover.

The Jewish Question in Vienna .... understand, please, that like New York

not being America at all, Vienna hasn't been 'Austrian' since

Theresa. Citoyens de Vienne are Czechs, Bohemians, Hungarians,

Sloveniens, Polish, Ukranians, etc. the Austrians themselves head-shakers

over this 'wasserkopf' that once was the capitol of a huge empire and now

governs a smallish state. Oh yes, even the provincials have their

prejudices against Jews, but only along with their parochial bias against

everyone not born in their village. My wife's side of the family comes

from a 19th Century Feldkirch in the Voralberg (Swiss border) where part

of the Krauses haven't spoken to the other part of the Krauses since

1748; it seems that ..... etc.

You claim to not finding a Nazi anywhere; I did - in the former Hitler

Jugend of my own age twenty two in the 1950 Osterreichisher Alpenverein,

Sextion Salzburg. Lads who wore uniforms, perhaps, but with too much of

a sense of the ridiculous (tipisch Osterreichisher booben, nichts?) to

take anything German seriously. I liked and admired them, even though my

most strenuous efforts failed to get them to pronounce the 'th' sound

instead of their 'zzzss'

as in Zzzursday, the day before Fritag. I leaned most of my technical

climbing skills from these chaps.

You have enjoyed an eventful life, Frau Priest. Servus!

Dr

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