Sleep training

[Guest guest]

Hello wiser ones

How do you all  gently, politely, and  respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out?  I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.

Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

[Guest guest]

Thank you Barbara. This was very helpful!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

 

Donna,

 

" While some people believe it's all right to let a baby cry to sleep, there is scientific evidence that it is harmful in the short and long term, " is something I might start with.  Then quoting research from  Harvard study on effects of excessive crying, Nils Bergman's brain science information where he quotes other research on long term effects including depression and schizophrenia as adults being possible outcomes, the famous quote of Lee Salk, " if crying is good for the lungs, then bleeding is good for the veins, " and so on.  Keep it research based and not personal opinion and I try to help parents uncover their instincts or if these are buried deeply or tarnished by their own childhood experiences, I try to elicit some empathy for the baby by asking how adults feel when their upset is ignored or minimized.  Acknowledging that we live in an immediate gratification society rather than realizing many " weanings " are a process not a 3-7 day quick fix.  Quick fixes often ignore ones humanity and can backfire with catastrophic outcomes.  I could go on for pages on this but I'm sure you get my point.  Treat moms with empathy, relay the facts, and offer resources.

 

Barbara Latterner

 

Hello wiser ones How do you all  gently, politely, and  respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out?  I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLCMomma's Milk

[Guest guest]

You could include information generally in your printed materials or recommended websites. Sent from my iPhone

Thank you Barbara. This was very helpful!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

Donna,

"While some people believe it's all right to let a baby cry to sleep, there is scientific evidence that it is harmful in the short and long term," is something I might start with. Then quoting research from Harvard study on effects of excessive crying, Nils Bergman's brain science information where he quotes other research on long term effects including depression and schizophrenia as adults being possible outcomes, the famous quote of Lee Salk, "if crying is good for the lungs, then bleeding is good for the veins," and so on. Keep it research based and not personal opinion and I try to help parents uncover their instincts or if these are buried deeply or tarnished by their own childhood experiences, I try to elicit some empathy for the baby by asking how adults feel when their upset is ignored or minimized. Acknowledging that we live in an immediate gratification society rather than realizing many "weanings" are a process not a 3-7 day quick fix. Quick fixes often ignore ones humanity and can backfire with catastrophic outcomes. I could go on for pages on this but I'm sure you get my point. Treat moms with empathy, relay the facts, and offer resources.

Barbara Latterner

Hello wiser ones How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLCMomma's Milk

[Guest guest]

How does the mom feel in her heart about letting the baby CIO? Does she feel it is perfectly ok and she can just shut the door and go read a trashy novel without giving her baby a thought, or does it make her cringe to hear the baby cry like that? She may answer your concerns herself.Jan -- Sent from my iPad

Hello wiser ones

How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.

Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

[Guest guest]

Did you see the recent article in Clinical Lactation March 2012, Vol. 3-1?It is under Blog Watch. "Dangers of 'Crying it Out': Damaging Children and their Relationships for the Long-term by Darcia Narvaez, Ph.D. A very good article. I thought about sharing it with a Mom who was using Baby Wise on her 9 week old. But I wasn't sure how it would be received. www.ClinicalLactation.org Sam To: " " < > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:11 PM Subject: Re: Sleep training

How does the mom feel in her heart about letting the baby CIO? Does she feel it is perfectly ok and she can just shut the door and go read a trashy novel without giving her baby a thought, or does it make her cringe to hear the baby cry like that? She may answer your concerns herself.Jan -- Sent from my iPad

Hello wiser ones

How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.

Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

[Guest guest]

I have a post on my blog that mostly has quotes like these... Beebe, M.Ed., RLC, IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comwww.facebook.com/thesecond9months--- Subject: Re:

Sleep trainingTo: Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2012, 6:08 PM

Thank you Barbara. This was very helpful!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

Donna,

"While some people believe it's all right to let a baby cry to sleep, there is scientific evidence that it is harmful in the short and long term," is something I might start with. Then quoting research from Harvard study on effects of excessive crying, Nils Bergman's brain science information where he quotes other research on long term effects including depression and schizophrenia as adults being possible outcomes, the famous quote of Lee Salk, "if crying is good for the lungs, then bleeding is good for the veins," and so on. Keep it research based and not personal opinion and I try to help parents uncover their instincts or if these are buried deeply or tarnished by their own childhood experiences, I try to elicit some empathy for the baby by asking how adults feel when their upset is ignored or minimized. Acknowledging that we live in an immediate gratification society rather than realizing many "weanings" are a process not a 3-7 day quick fix. Quick fixes often ignore ones humanity and can backfire with catastrophic outcomes. I could go on for pages on this but I'm sure you get my point. Treat moms with empathy, relay the facts, and offer resources.

Barbara Latterner

Hello wiser ones How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLCMomma's Milk

[Guest guest]

I often share information about how sleep training can negatively affect milk supply and infant growth.  Here's what an AAP commentary says about Ezzo (and ALL sleep training programs have things in common with Ezzo if mom is not following that plan specifically): http://aapnews.aappublications.org/content/14/4/21.abstract or for the full commentary: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/babywise-linked-to-babies-dehydration.html

I also sometimes explain the purpose of crying, that it's the baby's way of communicating and is supposed to be responded to quickly.  A quick explanation of how elevated cortisol levels that *stay* elevated due to prolonged crying can negatively affect lifelong health can be helpful too.

This can be a tricky subject when mom is exhausted and her ped and friends/family are encouraging her to try it. LLLL IBCLC Los Angeles

[Guest guest]

Dear All:

I LOVE Clinical Lactation so this was a great reminder to catch up on my

reading. In any case, I highly recommend reading Love at Goon Park from cover

to cover. It debunks much of the myths that we still contend with today AND its

a great read.

Best regards,

E. Burger, MHS, PhD, IBCLC

[Guest guest]

I simple state that the current research does not support CIO and point the mother in the direction of the info. I also tell her she needs to follow her heart and if it hurts to let the baby CIO that is telling her something. Kim Guelig IBCLC, RLCwww.BosomBabiesLactationServices.com To: " " < > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:52 PM Subject: Sleep training

Hello wiser ones

How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.

Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

[Guest guest]

, Is the book title Love at Goon Park : Harry Harlow and the Science of Affection ?http://www.amazon.ca/Love-Goon-Park-Science-Affection/dp/0738202789 Thanks in advance. Ghislaine De : [mailto: ] De la part de BurgerEnvoyé : 12 avril 2012 08:14À : Objet : Re: Sleep training Dear All:I LOVE Clinical Lactation so this was a great reminder to catch up on my reading. In any case, I highly recommend reading Love at Goon Park from cover to cover. It debunks much of the myths that we still contend with today AND its a great read. Best regards, E. Burger, MHS, PhD, IBCLC

[Guest guest]

I also ask the mother how she feels about using this strategy of CIO. She usually then finds the answer herself and it is much more powerful when it comes from her. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada De : [mailto: ] De la part de KimEnvoyé : 12 avril 2012 08:56À : Objet : Re: Sleep training I simple state that the current research does not support CIO and point the mother in the direction of the info. I also tell her she needs to follow her heart and if it hurts to let the baby CIO that is telling her something. Kim Guelig IBCLC, RLCwww.BosomBabiesLactationServices.comTo: " " < > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:52 PMSubject: Sleep training Hello wiser ones How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.Thanks!Donna Cohen BA , IBCLCMomma's MilkJoin me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

[Guest guest]

I have said so many things over the years, and it just depends on what I am thinking of at the moment. I always explain the science of baby's sleep and brain not being like an adults...and why their friends formula fed baby sleeps for 12 hrs easily. 

Then I say the things that make them go oh yeah:  If your dog was hungry would you feed him?  Do you leave a bowl of cat food out for your cat?  Okay...so you get that your pets are hungry but you don't think your child should be allowed to eat just because of hunger?  How about water?  Why do you keep a bowl of water out for them?  So they can get a drink whenever they need one right? I mean, your dog tells you, your cat tells you, and you feed them...right?  You know they may be thirsty....so be sure they are cared for and don't expect them to do without...I bet if they barked to go out you would be sure to get up and open the door too! Haha.  (This works for the pet owners who think of their pets as their children...not so well for those who crate their dogs, so audience matters.)

What if your baby wasn't a baby at all.  What if your baby was a person all grown but maybe quadriplegic? And they couldn't get help on their own, but they cried for help.....would you ignore them?  Why would you think it is okay to ignore your baby? Your baby is a whole person, complete with feelings and needs and just because they cannot say " mommy I need you and I am scared " does not mean they don't feel those things when you are outside the door while they cry out for you...and you don't go. 

What if you are wrong...what if your baby really needed you...really...and you didn't go.  Does your doctor love your baby? Does your doctor really feel your pain when your baby cries? So, why are you letting this man who does not love you, does not love your baby, does not live in your home, decide for you what is good for your baby?  Because if I got a dollar for every time a doc tells a mom her baby does not to eat from 7 pm til 7 am at 3 months I could keep my car full of gas easily...and I drive an SUV.

My favorite of all is " so, let's just say you said to your partner for life, the person you love more than anyone.... " babe, I am so hurt/sad/lonely/scared...whatever...I just need to curl up next to you...I just need you to hold me...And that person said " get over it, you are old enough to take care of those things yourself. "   Exactly how long do you think it would take you to have the stuff in boxes on the front porch?  That almost always makes her laugh. 

It really all comes back to the same thing.  People really do not think babies are people yet.  So, we can do things to babies and children we would never do to another adult...like make them cry for help and not go, like let them be hungry if it is inconvenient to feed them, etc.  Yesterday I told a mom that there were mothers around the world who listened to their children cry in hunger because they have no choice, but to choose purposely to ignore your child because 'you' want more sleep is inexcusable.

A lot of things  bug me, but an infant crying alone for the convenience of adults in a world where adults have so much makes me hurt.Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLC

 

Hello wiser ones

How do you all  gently, politely, and  respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out?  I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.

Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

-- Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLCBirthing & Beyond, Inc.Labor Support and Lactation Consultant Services

[Guest guest]

Pam, Thank you so much for that great analogy. I'm planning on sharing it with my co-workers and childbirth educators so they can help new parents understand better the language of baby.

To: Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 10:18 AMSubject: Re: Sleep training

I have said so many things over the years, and it just depends on what I am thinking of at the moment. I always explain the science of baby's sleep and brain not being like an adults...and why their friends formula fed baby sleeps for 12 hrs easily. Then I say the things that make them go oh yeah: If your dog was hungry would you feed him? Do you leave a bowl of cat food out for your cat? Okay...so you get that your pets are hungry but you don't think your child should be allowed to eat just because of hunger? How about water? Why do you keep a bowl of water out for them? So they can get a drink whenever they need one right? I mean, your dog tells you, your cat tells you, and you feed them...right? You know they may be thirsty....so be sure they are cared for and don't expect them to do without...I bet if they barked to go out you would be sure to get up and open the door too!

Haha. (This works for the pet owners who think of their pets as their children...not so well for those who crate their dogs, so audience matters.)What if your baby wasn't a baby at all. What if your baby was a person all grown but maybe quadriplegic? And they couldn't get help on their own, but they cried for help.....would you ignore them? Why would you think it is okay to ignore your baby? Your baby is a whole person, complete with feelings and needs and just because they cannot say "mommy I need you and I am scared" does not mean they don't feel those things when you are outside the door while they cry out for you...and you don't go. What if you are wrong...what if your baby really needed you...really...and you didn't go. Does your doctor love your baby? Does your doctor really feel your pain when your baby cries? So, why are you letting this man who does not love you, does not love your baby, does not

live in your home, decide for you what is good for your baby? Because if I got a dollar for every time a doc tells a mom her baby does not to eat from 7 pm til 7 am at 3 months I could keep my car full of gas easily...and I drive an SUV.My favorite of all is "so, let's just say you said to your partner for life, the person you love more than anyone...."babe, I am so hurt/sad/lonely/scared...whatever...I just need to curl up next to you...I just need you to hold me...And that person said "get over it, you are old enough to take care of those things yourself." Exactly how long do you think it would take you to have the stuff in boxes on the front porch? That almost always makes her laugh. It really all comes back to the same thing. People really do not think babies are people yet. So, we can do things to babies and children we would never do to another adult...like make them cry for help and not go, like

let them be hungry if it is inconvenient to feed them, etc. Yesterday I told a mom that there were mothers around the world who listened to their children cry in hunger because they have no choice, but to choose purposely to ignore your child because 'you' want more sleep is inexcusable.A lot of things bug me, but an infant crying alone for the convenience of adults in a world where adults have so much makes me hurt.Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLC

Hello wiser ones How do you all gently, politely, and respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out? I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLCMomma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

-- Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLCBirthing & Beyond, Inc.Labor Support and Lactation Consultant Services

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your responses. Articles were very helpful and Pam, analogies were great!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLC

Momma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

 

Pam, Thank you so much for that great analogy.  I'm planning on sharing it with my co-workers and childbirth educators so they can help new parents understand better the language of baby.

To: Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 10:18 AM

Subject: Re: Sleep training

 

I have said so many things over the years, and it just depends on what I am thinking of at the moment. I always explain the science of baby's sleep and brain not being like an adults...and why their friends formula fed baby sleeps for 12 hrs easily. 

Then I say the things that make them go oh yeah:  If your dog was hungry would you feed him?  Do you leave a bowl of cat food out for your cat?  Okay...so you get that your pets are hungry but you don't think your child should be allowed to eat just because of hunger?  How about water?  Why do you keep a bowl of water out for them?  So they can get a drink whenever they need one right? I mean, your dog tells you, your cat tells you, and you feed them...right?  You know they may be thirsty....so be sure they are cared for and don't expect them to do without...I bet if they barked to go out you would be sure to get up and open the door too!

Haha.  (This works for the pet owners who think of their pets as their children...not so well for those who crate their dogs, so audience matters.)What if your baby wasn't a baby at all.  What if your baby was a person all grown but maybe quadriplegic? And they couldn't get help on their own, but they cried for help.....would you ignore them?  Why would you think it is okay to ignore your baby? Your baby is a whole person, complete with feelings and needs and just because they cannot say " mommy I need you and I am scared " does not mean they don't feel those things when you are outside the door while they cry out for you...and you don't go. 

What if you are wrong...what if your baby really needed you...really...and you didn't go.  Does your doctor love your baby? Does your doctor really feel your pain when your baby cries? So, why are you letting this man who does not love you, does not love your baby, does not

live in your home, decide for you what is good for your baby?  Because if I got a dollar for every time a doc tells a mom her baby does not to eat from 7 pm til 7 am at 3 months I could keep my car full of gas easily...and I drive an SUV.

My favorite of all is " so, let's just say you said to your partner for life, the person you love more than anyone.... " babe, I am so hurt/sad/lonely/scared...whatever...I just need to curl up next to you...I just need you to hold me...And that person said " get over it, you are old enough to take care of those things yourself. "   Exactly how long do you think it would take you to have the stuff in boxes on the front porch?  That almost always makes her laugh. 

It really all comes back to the same thing.  People really do not think babies are people yet.  So, we can do things to babies and children we would never do to another adult...like make them cry for help and not go, like

let them be hungry if it is inconvenient to feed them, etc.  Yesterday I told a mom that there were mothers around the world who listened to their children cry in hunger because they have no choice, but to choose purposely to ignore your child because 'you' want more sleep is inexcusable.

A lot of things  bug me, but an infant crying alone for the convenience of adults in a world where adults have so much makes me hurt.Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLC

 

Hello wiser ones How do you all  gently, politely, and  respectfully explain the detrimental effects of letting your baby cry it out?  I don't want to offend anyone , especially when their ped said its ok, but I really want to get the point across.

Thanks!

Donna Cohen BA , IBCLCMomma's Milk

Join me on Facebook for the latest in breastfeeding news www.facebook.com/Donna.MommasMilk

-- Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLCBirthing & Beyond, Inc.Labor Support and Lactation Consultant Services