Re: suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck

[Guest guest]

didn't donna geddes do some work on these babies.......looking at u/s and found that there is a subgroup of kids for whom ibclc help and even frenotomy didn't help?? i think she used a nipple shield to great effect - can't remember why this was an issue and don't have tons of time right now. i'm sure i remember this from ilca conference 3 or 4 yrs ago..... you would think the cst would have been helpful - huh......doing any laid back positioning at all??

beth

Beth McMillan BA IBCLC

Ottawa Canada

suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck

Hi, Ladies.

I need a refresher on ideas for dealing with a baby whose suck is way too strong--makes mom's nipples bloody. Tongue tie has already been clipped. Already had several sessions of craniosacral therapy with a practitioner I trust, and this practitioner is puzzled by how strong the suck is even on her finger. I know that some babies clamp when they don't feel well-supported. Baby is a month old, mom's third baby, she has a pretty good idea how to hold baby during breastfeeding.

I've tried looking in Genna's new book, but can't find anything in the index or table of contents that seems to deal with strong suck and just don't have time to read the book cover to cover before the follow-up consultation we have scheduled. Suggestions needed and welcome!

Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

Dee,Did this mother try Biological Nurturing ? Often babies clamp less because they can relax more in this position.  I have great success (and thus the mothers as well) with the laid-back (BN) approach. And yes, Donna Geddes did a research on the subject. Here is the reference :Tongue movement and intra-oral vacuum in breastfeeding infants. Geddes DT, Kent JC, Mitoulas LR, Hartmann PE.   Early Hum Dev. 2008 Jul;84(7):471-7. Epub 2008 Feb 11. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada De : [mailto: ] De la part de Beth McMillanEnvoyé : 12 avril 2012 12:26À : Objet : Re: suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck didn't donna geddes do some work on these babies.......looking at u/s and found that there is a subgroup of kids for whom ibclc help and even frenotomy didn't help?? i think she used a nipple shield to great effect - can't remember why this was an issue and don't have tons of time right now. i'm sure i remember this from ilca conference 3 or 4 yrs ago..... you would think the cst would have been helpful - huh......doing any laid back positioning at all?? beth Beth McMillan BA IBCLCOttawa Canada suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck Hi, Ladies. I need a refresher on ideas for dealing with a baby whose suck is way too strong--makes mom's nipples bloody. Tongue tie has already been clipped. Already had several sessions of craniosacral therapy with a practitioner I trust, and this practitioner is puzzled by how strong the suck is even on her finger. I know that some babies clamp when they don't feel well-supported. Baby is a month old, mom's third baby, she has a pretty good idea how to hold baby during breastfeeding. I've tried looking in Genna's new book, but can't find anything in the index or table of contents that seems to deal with strong suck and just don't have time to read the book cover to cover before the follow-up consultation we have scheduled. Suggestions needed and welcome! Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

Dee,Please disregard my previous email. Below is the correct reference for Donna Geddes’ paper :Acta Paediatr. 2008 Sep;97(9):1205-9. Epub 2008 May 13. Infants of mothers with persistent nipple pain exert strong sucking vacuums.Abstract : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.2008.00882.x/abstract;jsessionid=BC06CEE78200D3B5CF5D39776A7FA462.d03t03 Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada De : [mailto: ] De la part de Beth McMillanEnvoyé : 12 avril 2012 12:26À : Objet : Re: suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck didn't donna geddes do some work on these babies.......looking at u/s and found that there is a subgroup of kids for whom ibclc help and even frenotomy didn't help?? i think she used a nipple shield to great effect - can't remember why this was an issue and don't have tons of time right now. i'm sure i remember this from ilca conference 3 or 4 yrs ago..... you would think the cst would have been helpful - huh......doing any laid back positioning at all?? beth Beth McMillan BA IBCLCOttawa Canada suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck Hi, Ladies. I need a refresher on ideas for dealing with a baby whose suck is way too strong--makes mom's nipples bloody. Tongue tie has already been clipped. Already had several sessions of craniosacral therapy with a practitioner I trust, and this practitioner is puzzled by how strong the suck is even on her finger. I know that some babies clamp when they don't feel well-supported. Baby is a month old, mom's third baby, she has a pretty good idea how to hold baby during breastfeeding. I've tried looking in Genna's new book, but can't find anything in the index or table of contents that seems to deal with strong suck and just don't have time to read the book cover to cover before the follow-up consultation we have scheduled. Suggestions needed and welcome! Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

Hi, Beth.

Yeah, I'm surprised the CST hasn't been more help, especially since she did it both before and after the frenotomy. Don't know about laid-back. We can investigate that when she comes for follow-up early next week. Thanks for the suggestion of the nipple shield.

Dee

didn't donna geddes do some work on these babies.......looking at u/s and found that there is a subgroup of kids for whom ibclc help and even frenotomy didn't help?? i think she used a nipple shield to great effect - can't remember why this was an issue and don't have tons of time right now. i'm sure i remember this from ilca conference 3 or 4 yrs ago..... you would think the cst would have been helpful - huh......doing any laid back positioning at all??

beth

Beth McMillan BA IBCLC

Ottawa Canada

suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck

Hi, Ladies.

I need a refresher on ideas for dealing with a baby whose suck is way too strong--makes mom's nipples bloody. Tongue tie has already been clipped. Already had several sessions of craniosacral therapy with a practitioner I trust, and this practitioner is puzzled by how strong the suck is even on her finger. I know that some babies clamp when they don't feel well-supported. Baby is a month old, mom's third baby, she has a pretty good idea how to hold baby during breastfeeding.

I've tried looking in Genna's new book, but can't find anything in the index or table of contents that seems to deal with strong suck and just don't have time to read the book cover to cover before the follow-up consultation we have scheduled. Suggestions needed and welcome!

Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

Hi, Ghislaine.

When babies come to me after hospital birth, with tongue tie and need for CST, I never see laid-back nursing work. However, now that some of these issues have been addressed, we can try it during her follow-up consultation.

Thanks for the link to the Geddes work.

Dee

Dee,

Did this mother try Biological Nurturing ? Often babies clamp less because they can relax more in this position. I have great success (and thus the mothers as well) with the laid-back (BN) approach.

And yes, Donna Geddes did a research on the subject. Here is the reference :

Tongue movement and intra-oral vacuum in breastfeeding infants. Geddes DT, Kent JC, Mitoulas LR, Hartmann PE. Early Hum Dev. 2008 Jul;84(7):471-7. Epub 2008 Feb 11.

Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Ghislaine.

I kind of didn't think the first link addressed my question, but figured maybe I am just tired and needed to re-read it later! Thanks for clarifying and sending the correct link.

Dee

Dee,

Please disregard my previous email.

Below is the correct reference for Donna Geddes’ paper :

Acta Paediatr. 2008 Sep;97(9):1205-9. Epub 2008 May 13. Infants of mothers with persistent nipple pain exert strong sucking vacuums.

Abstract : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.2008.00882.x/abstract;jsessionid=BC06CEE78200D3B5CF5D39776A7FA462.d03t03

Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

[Guest guest]

Perhaps baby needs chiro as well? I’ve seen CST do some wonderful things, but occasionally I’ve found that the babies need chiro along with the CST. How many sessions of CST? Perhaps baby is still working on something? Is baby lip-tied? Warmly,Fleur From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Dee KassingSent: April-12-12 4:42 PMTo: Subject: Re: suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck Hi, Beth. Yeah, I'm surprised the CST hasn't been more help, especially since she did it both before and after the frenotomy. Don't know about laid-back. We can investigate that when she comes for follow-up early next week. Thanks for the suggestion of the nipple shield. Deedidn't donna geddes do some work on these babies.......looking at u/s and found that there is a subgroup of kids for whom ibclc help and even frenotomy didn't help?? i think she used a nipple shield to great effect - can't remember why this was an issue and don't have tons of time right now. i'm sure i remember this from ilca conference 3 or 4 yrs ago..... you would think the cst would have been helpful - huh......doing any laid back positioning at all?? beth Beth McMillan BA IBCLCOttawa Canada suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck Hi, Ladies. I need a refresher on ideas for dealing with a baby whose suck is way too strong--makes mom's nipples bloody. Tongue tie has already been clipped. Already had several sessions of craniosacral therapy with a practitioner I trust, and this practitioner is puzzled by how strong the suck is even on her finger. I know that some babies clamp when they don't feel well-supported. Baby is a month old, mom's third baby, she has a pretty good idea how to hold baby during breastfeeding. I've tried looking in Genna's new book, but can't find anything in the index or table of contents that seems to deal with strong suck and just don't have time to read the book cover to cover before the follow-up consultation we have scheduled. Suggestions needed and welcome! Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

Hello, Fleur.

I think 3 sessions of CST done so far. This particular practitioner is also a pediatric chiro, so does both types of therapy as determined by baby's needs. Don't know if a lip tie was identified or treated. I can check that when she comes for follow-up consult. I am terrific at identifying tongue ties of all types, but I have to admit I just don't feel like I recognize/understand the nuances of determining lip tie. If anyone has some "quick and easy" pointers for determining normal and abnormal lip attachment, please share.

Dee Kassing

didn't donna geddes do some work on these babies.......looking at u/s and found that there is a subgroup of kids for whom ibclc help and even frenotomy didn't help?? i think she used a nipple shield to great effect - can't remember why this was an issue and don't have tons of time right now. i'm sure i remember this from ilca conference 3 or 4 yrs ago..... you would think the cst would have been helpful - huh......doing any laid back positioning at all??

beth

Beth McMillan BA IBCLC

Ottawa Canada

suggestions needed for vacuum-cleaner suck

Hi, Ladies.

I need a refresher on ideas for dealing with a baby whose suck is way too strong--makes mom's nipples bloody. Tongue tie has already been clipped. Already had several sessions of craniosacral therapy with a practitioner I trust, and this practitioner is puzzled by how strong the suck is even on her finger. I know that some babies clamp when they don't feel well-supported. Baby is a month old, mom's third baby, she has a pretty good idea how to hold baby during breastfeeding.

I've tried looking in Genna's new book, but can't find anything in the index or table of contents that seems to deal with strong suck and just don't have time to read the book cover to cover before the follow-up consultation we have scheduled. Suggestions needed and welcome!

Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

There is evidence that neonatal control of sucking pressure is controlled by the sensory system. Therefore it is plausible that an underlying sensory issue could be directly impacting how the infant exerts suction (negative pressure really). With a tongue tie case I’d want to make sure the release and post-frenotomy support was done well. LCs can’t just assume that because the baby had a frenotomy and CST that 1) it was done right/well/complete 2) that there aren’t underlying sensory and/or neuromuscular, neurological, structural issues left to correct.One study: Neonatal control of nutritive sucking pressure: evidence for an intrinsic tau-guide Cole, IBCLC, RLCBoard Certified Lactation ConsultantTel.Fax.www.lunalactation.com

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

The doc here who clips TTs really knows her stuff. She has taken time out of her office to train with both Dr. and Dr. Kotlow. And the mother and I discussed several times the importance of after-procedure stretching, and mother assures me she has done this. After the clipping had healed, she also did suck training exercises.

The CST provider usually does a very good job, but I can check posture, etc myself when I see them for follow-up next week.

But let's assume both TT and CST have been appropriately taken care of. If you have a kiddo with sensory issues, what is the best type of practitioner? PT? OT?

Dee Kassing

There is evidence that neonatal control of sucking pressure is controlled by the sensory system. Therefore it is plausible that an underlying sensory issue could be directly impacting how the infant exerts suction (negative pressure really). With a tongue tie case I’d want to make sure the release and post-frenotomy support was done well. LCs can’t just assume that because the baby had a frenotomy and CST that 1) it was done right/well/complete 2) that there aren’t underlying sensory and/or neuromuscular, neurological, structural issues left to correct.

One study: Neonatal control of nutritive sucking pressure: evidence for an intrinsic tau-guide

Cole, IBCLC, RLC

Board Certified Lactation Consultant

Tel.

Fax.

www.lunalactation.com

[Guest guest]

Dee, you wrote:

  " I am terrific at identifying tongue ties of all types, but I have to admit I

just don't feel like I recognize/understand the nuances of determining lip tie. "

I like this blog for the description of lip tie and different degrees of it and

their affect on breast feeding:

http://thefunnyshapedwoman.blogspot.com/2011/03/introducing-maxillary-labial-fre\

nulum.html I like the pics of how to get more breast tissue in the mouth, hence

success using laid back.. baby gets a really good mouthful.

as well as Dr. Kotlow's slide presentation on his site:

http://kiddsteeth.com/old_site/infantdentalcare2010.pdf

Hope things will settle down with this mom and babe. Perhaps treatment by a good

homeopath would also be effective.. and there is always getting that milk

flowing before baby latches on and putting baby to breast when half asleep,

feeding more frequently.

Celina