Re: Re: a letter from Alice - Calling Peace pilgrims

[Guest guest]

Toni,

Yes, I see your points here. We are always unable to really know what is

happening on the ground in a conflict such as this, even when we see actions

with " our own eyes " . We can never " know " motivations nor can we truly, justly

evaluate the actions we see or what started them. But the blame game (and

there is plenty of blame to go around) will not accomplish ANYTHING!!!!

Again, I think what Alice is pointing to here is not in the realm of justice

or righteousness - nor is it even in the political sphere. IT IS SPIRITUAL.

That is the missing ingredient in all this hype from both sides of this

ancient conflict. Both can easily and articulately justify whatever actions

or outcomes they wish to promote. And when these hostilities have gone on for

centuries - as this one has - no amount of logic is persuative to those who

are caught up in the violence. It is always the same in war. Emotions rule,

not the heart.

What seems to be missing here is spiritual leadership capable of galvanizing

the love and imagination of both the Israeli and the Palestinian masses, who

will provide some win-win/ love-love solutions. Few are able to provide it

politically. I believe Sadat had it and the former slain Israeli leader had

it. But in the absense of this orientation, I fear we are at the top of a

very slippery slope, leading downward and backward for the many lives at risk

there. I pray such a leader will emerge. And he/she must come from within the

region, not outside it. In the absence of spiritual leadership, only the

actions of individuals can make a difference.

We were inspired by the visit of Pope II to Isreal, marking the

dawn of this new Millenium. It may have been one of the last trips of this

frail old pilgrim for peace (and I am not a Catholic). But we need more

leaders willing to ask for forgiveness and reconciliation in all this. He at

least set a high bar for others to jump over - if they can only be found.

Greg

[Guest guest]

Greg, I have no problem with a spiritual solution. I believe in the energy

released by prayer being able to influence people. I also unfortunately believe

negative energy also has great influence. My point was not blame,but the

individual emotions of those praying. If they have already judged, I believe the

energy will not accomplish its end. To my mind the only prayer that is neutral

and sends the positive energy we mean to send is " Thy will be done "

I also am too realistic or is it pessimism to believe this conflict can ever be

resolved with a " win-win " outcome. " Love-love solutions have never appeared out

of the " blue " or as miracles. I am not too sure the Red Sea will part. But I do

think , with patience, goodwill and much time, a solution can be worked

out(maybe with our spiritual help) but definitely only with the will of the

people concerned. One should not give God a timetable. But we can work for

realistic goals in the here and now like a truce, a cessation of violence, a

stepping back from the brink.

Have we forgotten, those of us in the Judeo-Christian tradition that God gave us

free will? And as jungians should we not be aware , as was Jung, of the two

sides of God, so to speak. " I am the God of weal and woe " was never erased from

Scripture. If we are brave enough, and jung mentions what courage it takes, to

pray for God's will to be done, we must be willing to accept the consequences

and not assume they will be what we envision.

Toni

marshkan@... wrote:

> Toni,

>

> Yes, I see your points here. We are always unable to really know what is

> happening on the ground in a conflict such as this, even when we see actions

> with " our own eyes " . We can never " know " motivations nor can we truly, justly

> evaluate the actions we see or what started them. But the blame game (and

> there is plenty of blame to go around) will not accomplish ANYTHING!!!!

>

> Again, I think what Alice is pointing to here is not in the realm of justice

> or righteousness - nor is it even in the political sphere. IT IS SPIRITUAL.

> That is the missing ingredient in all this hype from both sides of this

> ancient conflict. Both can easily and articulately justify whatever actions

> or outcomes they wish to promote. And when these hostilities have gone on for

> centuries - as this one has - no amount of logic is persuative to those who

> are caught up in the violence. It is always the same in war. Emotions rule,

> not the heart.

>

> What seems to be missing here is spiritual leadership capable of galvanizing

> the love and imagination of both the Israeli and the Palestinian masses, who

> will provide some win-win/ love-love solutions. Few are able to provide it

> politically. I believe Sadat had it and the former slain Israeli leader had

> it. But in the absense of this orientation, I fear we are at the top of a

> very slippery slope, leading downward and backward for the many lives at risk

> there. I pray such a leader will emerge. And he/she must come from within the

> region, not outside it. In the absence of spiritual leadership, only the

> actions of individuals can make a difference.

>

> We were inspired by the visit of Pope II to Isreal, marking the

> dawn of this new Millenium. It may have been one of the last trips of this

> frail old pilgrim for peace (and I am not a Catholic). But we need more

> leaders willing to ask for forgiveness and reconciliation in all this. He at

> least set a high bar for others to jump over - if they can only be found.

>

> Greg

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

fa, me too, almost. can't ever give up completely. I know there is

hope. but it seems dim when we look at TV or read the newspaper. I am concerned

with the physical survival of Israel. I don't give two cents for who thinks

their religion is the only right one. Let them sort that out later. It is the

survival of the first state of Israel. I do not worry about the survival of the

tribe. it will always survive. But, this noble project was the first souvergn

Jewish state in 2000 years.

It isn't over until it is over, fa. Hang on. Things have looked worse

before, and israel survived.

Toni

fa wrote:

> Dear Alice, you wrote:

>

> > yes, Greg, n Toni - that is where i am coming from - who started what is

> not

> > the issue for me - it is the lack of addressing the SPIRITUAL solution.

> > Jihads n the fights over mosques n temples n holy sites etc. point to BOTH

> > sides inflamed by outrage n a feeling that THEIR religion is better etc.

> the

> > only way reconciliation could ever come - seems to me - is by thr

> religious

> > leaders having a summit

>

> The problem is, as Jung said much better than I ever will, we have RELIGIOUS

> leaders not spiritual ones. They are caught up in dogma and the collective.

>

> This weekend should be a celebration for me. It is, instead, the least

> joyful Simchat Torah I can remember.

>

> I thank Alice, Annette, Toni and Mike for their kind words, but they are

> undeserved. The collective has a great pull on me. I feel that I am

> betraying my people by pursuing an individual path over here instead of

> being in Israel helping it to survive, before we lose our homeland yet

> again.

>

> I am in despair.

>

> fa

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear pha - I just want to acknowledge the pain I felt in your last

post. And also to comment: - the collective has a great pull on all of

us - not just you. That is the problem in the middle east - something

is trying to get born there, and this outburst of fearsome energy is

part of it.

You are probably doing more for peace by pursuing your individual path

in England, than anything you could do in Israel. As Jung said, any

time we gain any bit of consciousness we change the collective. Please

don't despair - I don't think it would help - the world needs people

like you to FEEL the magnitude of what is happening. I think this is how

transformation happens. Shirley