Re: puer confessions

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/19/99 12:59:22 PM Central Standard Time, hoon@...

writes:

<<

Okay. Some of you have are reading this. Thanks. You'll have a clearer

picture; that's my intention. It's a performance too. What it is for me to

be me, activated at times (most times?) by the complexes associated with

the puer. . .?

>>

~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your poem made me cry, your " confessions " made me laugh, most of all you

helped me understand how not to understand the man in my life!

LOL~!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My love to your mother. My peace to you. most of

all.....WRITE SUMMORE! The Puer Papers, indeed! Brilliant! <slump> (although

I know that's not what you need to hear....<grin>)

Dammit! I have to ask, does the performance never end ???? LOL

(Still trying to understand the puer I know up close and personal)

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

In message <v04220806b482a8ff93cb@[207.54.160.146]>, hoon@... writes

>What do you prescribe? Unpleasantness? Dissatisfaction? Strickenness?

>

>There's a lot of prescriptive stuff about the puer. As if fate and

>necessity could be prescribed!

- you just answered your own question!

If I may presume just *one* small piece of - well, not advice exactly,

more a question - why in the name of whichever god you like SEEK to be

hard on yourself?! It's a thing most of us manage only too well

(including your sweet self, I suspect. Methinks the gentleman doth

protest too much!)

I'm sure Alice would agree that self-flagellation is an insult to our

Divine Guest?

from a puella

--

fa

http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/99 6:17:21 PM Central Standard Time, hoon@...

writes:

<< Perhaps the time will come

when I write my own opus: how the problem of growth and maturity can be

resolved through moving back home at 45 years of age. (Working title? " The

Mother Complex as a Living Situation " . Damn, laughing, I nearly knocked

over the computer just now.)

>>

Ohhhhhhhh~!!!!!!!!!! ! I hear your opus...you've been at it alla your

life AND it's magnificent! Damn the " Mother Complex " thing...keep writing!

LOL~! Be keeerrrful bout the puter tho! : )

Love,

Cheryl*

[Guest guest]

Greg,

You wrote, " Even though you seem to be laboring the puer role at present "

Hey, JungCircle brought it up! I just made my report. No, I'm embracing my

situation. Am I ambivalent about it? Sure am.

Yes, my mother needs me. And, yes I need her. Probably, I need her too

much. but, as I mentioned to Roselma, the conditions are right.

My mother and I get along well. As we should: we've earned it. It's a bit

of a double edge, because my mother has confided in me -not so much as a

son- since I moved back to Cleveland eight years ago. (This is my

perception.) It is true that I do see myself as more her son than her son

grown into a man. But, I'm not worrying about it. I'm trying to work to get

closer to my true self.

My 'story' as it were, was supposed to be evidence for how complicated the

situation is and what it's opportunities are. Perhaps the time will come

when I write my own opus: how the problem of growth and maturity can be

resolved through moving back home at 45 years of age. (Working title? " The

Mother Complex as a Living Situation " . Damn, laughing, I nearly knocked

over the computer just now.)

I've been tenacious about delving into my family's story. My mother's

childhood dream turns out to be a big dream, for us both. What's the hugest

experience my mother and I have shared? We both watched my twin brother

flat-line at 38yo, when the life support was removed, after six days in the

ICU after he over-dosed himself on his anti-psychotics. That's a chiller,

but not of my relationship with my mother. And with no one have I spent

more time laughing; the humorist 'son' and mother with a sense of humor.

Perhaps it would be enlightening to learn more about the times men have

spent with their mothers.

***

What puts us here? It's easy, using Jung or other sages of our nature, to

abstract away from what really has happened. I confessed because the time

was right for me to, but, Greg, it isn't the puer I worry about. I don't

even worry too much about my self but I am concerned with how to get up and

face the day fully. Each day, how and how best to do so. I'm concerned too

with my capacity. . .it can grow, and grows.

There isn't much real pain in the abstract, in my view. (I'm not

necessarily sensitive to it, if there is pain there.) My projection on the

discussion is, -despite people admitting they are puers, married to puers,

have been run through by puers, (and much worse,) or find puers this sort

of odd epicurean, half-man, and enchanter, and seducer- is that the real

story is quickly moved away from. Is there some aspect of truth to this

sense of mine? The details seem important sort of like a personal fractal.

How far off base am I in thinking out loud tonight the unspeakable pain of

real men lurks in the background? To cry out loud, then.

***

My 'story' is one of perplexity and opportunity. Very abstract, no? Who am

I but this man who wants to fulfill his capacity. Is what I want to be

really loved? I have been really loved, am loved to the best of people's

capacity. I have been thrown off the cliffs of my own fantastic unreality

for the sake of love. No, what I want is to really love. To drive my tongue

beyond the taste of succor, of bittersweet.

***

In any case, I appreciate your sympathetic and helpful response,

[Guest guest]

Roselma,

You write,

>OK, so why do you think you should draw horns on the figure... perhaps you

>are READY... !!!!!

Ready or not, eh?

>Seems to me you are doing one heck of a job at working the individuation

>process

Earlier this month I wrote here " I don't work at individuation " in response

to . Probably, you could wake up everyday and have some plan to

uncover a bit of your self. (I look at it (in my own life) as pulling the

onion a bit farther out of the paper bag.) My experience is: individuation

gets forced on me. Ready or not. It continues to be quite a trip tripping.

Well, the conditions are right right now. My heart clued me this morning.

Thank God! I recalled one time twelve years ago when I wished to pluck that

same heart right out of my chest. (Tender is one thing, but...)

The tenderizing *real* can come calling this way: " ready? " sure okay why

not yeah let's go for it wait I can live like this wait no this is intense

you don't say that's it? wait a minute hold on can I have a break why are

you doing this? hold it this is nuts this is too real let me go

Living can be done this way for years. Regarding Von franz, I did learn how

to work, just not how to really work!

***

thanks for your kind response,

[Guest guest]

Frances,

Thanks. And for us all I wish a very tender Christmas,

and completely tender year 2000.

my best to you,

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/1999 7:17:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

hoon@... writes:

<<

My 'story' as it were, was supposed to be evidence for how complicated the

situation is and what it's opportunities are. Perhaps the time will come

when I write my own opus: how the problem of growth and maturity can be

resolved through moving back home at 45 years of age.>>

I encourage you to write your opus. You might want to consider doing it in

small chuncks though. Its like eating an elephant, you can do it easier if

you carve off one small bite at a time. And about being 45, consider

yourself fortunate that you are not 75 and your dear mom only a fading

memory! Ask her to tell you stories about your more remote personal

unconcsious - those stories from her childhood and her mother's and

grandmother's and so on. You may later be glad you did.

<< I've been tenacious about delving into my family's story. >>

For me, the quest for my family's story has taken me back to our European

roots, five or six generations deep. It has been a 30 year saga for me, one

which continues to unfold. And it is one which has drawn in other relatives

(some of whom I had barely known before) who share a similar fascination.

You may find some things which you don't expect.....and some you don't like.

But they may have, in some small ways, shaped your family (and by extension

you) into who they/you are now. Like Jung, I don't accept the tabula rasa

concept. To expect that the psyche is began at our birth is akin to a

mutillation.

<<Perhaps it would be enlightening to learn more about the times men have

spent with their mothers.>>

I love to spend time with my mother. And I dread the time when I will need

to help her walk into that unknown territory of death which awaits us all.

But I'm sure that I, like you are now, will take that walk one day. And

somehow I think we'll do OK.

<< What puts us here? It's easy, using Jung or other sages of our nature, to

abstract away from what really has happened. I confessed because the time

was right for me to, but, Greg, it isn't the puer I worry about. I don't

even worry too much about my self but I am concerned with how to get up and

face the day fully. Each day, how and how best to do so. I'm concerned too

with my capacity. . .it can grow, and grows.>>

Finding meaning in what we do after breakfast each day is a dilemma for us

all. The most difficult task for me has been to discover, over the past

several years, what is truly important to me, what gives my life the greatest

meaning and fulfillment. And for me, an intuitive introvert by nature, it

has become expanding mutually-enhancing relationships. That is what I seek

to do each day. And it is ever challenging and interesting. But one must

seek the meaning which is uniquely important for each of us as individuals.

And these will change over time. I'll share a favorite quote from Goethe on

the subject of commitment, once one has decided what is important:

" Until one is committed there is always hesitancy, the chance to draw back,

always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation),

there is one elementary truth - the ignorance of which kills countless ideas

and splendid plans:

That the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too.

All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have

occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in

one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material

assistance, which no man could have dreamed would come his way. Whatever you

can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in

it. Begin it now. "

This has been a very valuable quote to me and I have discovered its truth in

my own life multiple times.

<< There isn't much real pain in the abstract, in my view. (I'm not

necessarily sensitive to it, if there is pain there.) My projection on the

discussion is, -despite people admitting they are puers, married to puers,

have been run through by puers, (and much worse,) or find puers this sort

of odd epicurean, half-man, and enchanter, and seducer- is that the real

story is quickly moved away from. Is there some aspect of truth to this

sense of mine? The details seem important sort of like a personal fractal.

How far off base am I in thinking out loud tonight the unspeakable pain of

real men lurks in the background? To cry out loud, then.

My 'story' is one of perplexity and opportunity. Very abstract, no? Who am

I but this man who wants to fulfill his capacity. Is what I want to be

really loved? I have been really loved, am loved to the best of people's

capacity. I have been thrown off the cliffs of my own fantastic unreality

for the sake of love. No, what I want is to really love. To drive my tongue

beyond the taste of succor, of bittersweet.>>

We all want to fulfill our capacity. That is the very essence of life, to

find its purpose and meaning. The answer is unique to each of us. And at mid

life you are doing some very important work in that direction. And you may

be making more progress than you even imagine. Recognizing your need to do

so is a step many never make, so consider yourself fortunate.

Here is another quote which might be useful to you, as it has for me:

" You should know now that a man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking

about acting, nor by thinking about what he will think when he has finished

acting. A man of knowledge chooses a path with heart and follows it. "

Castaneda

At some point we all realize that life is not a dress rehearsal. Thanks for

being real. It is always so refreshing.

I hope these thoughts weren't too far off the mark for you.

Best wishes for the holidays,

Greg

[Guest guest]

<< Ask her to tell you stories about your more remote personal

unconcsious - those stories from her childhood and her mother's and

grandmother's and so on. You may later be glad you did.

>>

Oh, yes. Oh definitely. I used to prompt my mom and got wonderful stories.

Then after she died I pumped my dad for his stories. I am so glad I did.

Things I never knew -- some things I wish I'd known earlier.

Deborah's post was so beautifully stated (and spoke for me, really). My

mother has been dead eleven years ( I was robbed!!!!!) and I STILL have the

urge to pick up the phone to share something. And I am pleased with myself

that I had the good sense, and the love, to cherish her while she lived.

Moon still looks great tonight.

phoebe