Visit to Alice

[Guest guest]

Frances noted:

<<Beatrix & Gene: Will post more on Theophany - keep it coming.>>

Here's an item I wrote up awhile ago on the " theodicy " issue,

which was my focus for posting the earlier Job item. I probably

misunderstood the on-going thread. Oh well. Anyway, more on

the problem of theodicy which may or may not be of interest. This

particular vignette is more from a (ancient) Stoic perspective.

----

Occasionally the question is asked as to why " bad things happen

to good people? " And usually accompanying this question comes

another: " How could a loving God " allow such to happen? Theologians

refer to this issue of evil in our life as the Theodicy Problem.

There have always been answers, rarely good ones, to the Theodicy

Problem. Regardless, I thought I might present a set of answers

that may seem provocative--since they seem so different from what

we so oft hear.

I'll be quoting from the Stoic philosopher--Lucius eus Seneca

(c. 4 b.c.e.-65 c.e):

[God] " does not treat the good man like a toy, but tries him, hardens

him, and readies him for himself. "

" Adversity [does] not affect the spirit of a stalwart man. He

maintains his poise and assimilates all that falls to his lot to his

own complexion, for he is more potent than the world without.

I do not maintain that he is insensible to externals, but that he

overcomes them. "

" Good men...must not shrink from hardship and difficulty or

complain of fate; they should take whatever befalls in good part

and turn it to advantage. The thing that matters is not what you

bear but how you bear it. "

" No one is more unhappy, in my judgment, than a man who has

never met with adversity. He has never had the privilege of

testing himself. "

" For self-knowledge, testing is necessary; no one can discover

what he can do except by trying... "

" Why do you wonder that good men are shaken to make them

strong? No tree stands firm and sturdy if it is not buffeted by

constant wind; the very stresses cause it to stiffen and fix its

roots firmly. "

" Scorn poverty: no one is as poor as he was at birth. Scorn pain:

either it will go away or you will. Scorn death: either it finishes

you or it transforms you. "

[Above quotations derived from the following book:

THE STOIC PHILOSOPHY OF SENECA, translated by Moses Hadas,

W.W. Norton & Company, 1958, pp. 29, 36-37, 40, and 44.]

Seneca's approach to the Theodicy Problem is really about

turning the bad into the good. It's about honing one's self. Rather

than just stressing the stiff upper lip, Seneca sees this world

and its challenge as a stage where we *learn* how to act out the

play. For Seneca, the Theodicy Problem is a contingent of lessons

that a good person will come to learn in order to evolve and

prepare himself spiritually.

But, as always, Seneca's answer to the Theodicy Problem is

commendable but incomplete--like all those, since, who have

also tried to answer such. Seneca talks of bravery, courage,

and maturity in meeting the challenge. But he does not broach

the loss of innocents to what we perceive as evil in this world.

Still, Seneca's explanation is perhaps to be admired. He does not

dally in victimization, but rather stresses courage, thinking,

cunning, and fortitude in the face of these as of yet unexplained

Forces of Nature. If a person has to go down, they should try

to go down well. Perhaps this is what some of the old monks

meant about the importance of " dying right? "

As that ancient Stoic philosopher discovered for himself--as

do we--this business of living and dying isn't simple. Seneca

endured years of Imperial-dictated exile on a stony, lonely island.

Later, in the end, he was ordered to die by suicide by the

Emperor Nero. In both situations, Seneca practiced what he

preached bravely--overcoming the adversity involved, but surely it

wasn't a simple matter.

Seneca and other Stoics, like Epictetus, talked about *attitude.*

No doubt all of us have practiced this--overcoming adversity

through our attitude.

But Epictetus warned that we must come to realize what we

" can and cannot control " in this world. To attempt to exercise

control where you really have none is truly vain and illusory,

but exercising right control when you have the capacity to do so

is a form of wisdom. The challenge is being able to discriminate

the difference. And I think this has real significance when it

comes to the Theodicy Problem--and our very own individual

theodicy problem.

Some respond to Seneca saying: " Simple isn't it? Yes, but....! "

Speaking out loud the ideas, how we can overcome the adversities

of life, is the simple part. Living out such isn't as simple.

According to Seneca there is a formula involved, which is about

the measure of our *greatness.* The great souls somehow have

learned how to " grow beyond " the fear and chaos of adversity.

And, " Yes, but...! " There's the trap of the Theodicy Problem.

Perhaps Seneca was wise enough not even to allude to the

disasters and death perpetrated upon innocents. How can one

speak of attitude or challenge regarding such events as tornadoes

sweeping people to their death--or air disasters that evaporate

people in mid-air?

Perhaps the only attitude we can hold at this point, concerning

the innocents, is to try to understand better what has happened,

to not so quickly blame " God " or Nature and thus fall into the

" victim syndrome, " but rather investigate the event(s) more

thoroughly for future prevention.

----

Beatrix

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your warm welcome back.

Fluttering around the chatter, I am catching aural revelations on what's

going on in my current reading. Giordano Bruno & the Hermetic

tradition; Edinger's discourse using Jung's Answer to Job as commentary

on Blake's Illuminations of Job; Northrop Frye's The Great Code; Reich's

Murder of Christ, Alice's, Dove in the Stone; Robet Bly & n

Woodman's, The Maiden King; Whyte's poems, Fire in the Earth

amongst others.

Deborah & Gene: Loved your discourse on the Eucharist as white magic.

Beatrix & Gene: Will post more on Theophany - keep it coming.

Greg: I've enjoyed being in the company of Bly on many

occasions, even danced with him at the last Bly/Woodman conference in

borough, Ontario - the room full of spirit drummers and musicians,

I put down my flute and joined in!! Will answer your query on my

participation in Jung Lecture last October - Transformation Of Desire -

Still downloading on it!!

Phoebe: Rome is on the top of my list for my next European trip. Even

more so, since your wonderful description. I agree, the classics are

full(gent) with imagination. That's why I sent my son to a Waldorf

school - he got all the myths, legends and fairytales as a wee nipper -

he read Oedipus Rex at 13, then onto Parsifal at 14, performed

Becket in Murder in the Cathedral at 16, and directed his first play at

18. As far as I'm concerned these are the basics for any education.

Rainbo you asked:

<<think we can somehow make the visit to Alice and pay our respects

to the Wisdom she so courageously lit before us.>>

I am ON for this visit. It's a car drive from Toronto as there are no

direct flights. Roads are very icy and snowy right now, but come the

Spring thaw it'll be easy. How about planning sometime in April, say

around Eastertime?

Trailing indigo light behind me, dancing a coupla more somersaults, to

begin landing back in what is truly home again. Thanks. This is REALLY

solid ground.

Frances