RE: Re: Early Morning Waking

January 12, 2004

News to me that corn and potatoes were on any other continent other than

this New World. They've found the original corn grass in archaeological

sites that South American tribes started from and grew out the earlike parts

to become their corn. The today's potato original stocks are still grown by

Andes tribes. Get messed up on historical times so I can't put Galen,

Hippocrates to Egypt. Do remember a science special where cocaine was found

in either Greek or Egyptian hair analysis. Researcher who found said the

coca plant is indigenous only to South America, appears on no other

continent. Trade between the two continents had to be present then. Was

marijuana too in hair analysis but that was available from an indigenous

species not far away.

Wanita

> Tracking back, diabetes was first identified around the time of the

> introduction of maize (corn) into the human diet. Galen actually named it

> who would be the one I would pursue reading if interested in old cultures

> and their health problems as he wrote " the book " that was used as law in

> medicine for about 1000 years. He taught Hippocrates. If I remember

> correctly, Egytians were into maize.

>

> Does that mean corn causes diabetes? Not exactly - corn causes high

> glucose/insulin levels because of the type of carbs (i.e. sugars). The

> Irish's high rates of diabetes are linked to their preference for potatoes

> which cause the same high glucose/high insulin levels. Modern bread

because

> of its refining processes, also causes the same high production of

insulin.

> Insulin is about glucose - insulin problems are about glucose which is

all

> about sugar which is all about carbohydrates. But as has pointed

out,

> not all carbs are exactly equal (in the form of simple sugars) and affect

> insulin exactly the same.

>

> The epidemic of diabetes is because the American diet has taken the worst

> all the way around - refined sugar, potatoes, and corn. Yea,

Macs.

>

> High carb and high fat consumption at the same time sends triglyceride

> levels off the charts. That is sufficiently documented which is why I

> question the suggestions of combining the two on the reasoning that

insulin

> production will be minimized.

>

> Re: Early Morning Waking

>

> > Egypt has the first evidence of diabetes. Iirc, it is some

> archeological

> > remnant whose residue indicated ketoacidosis. They considered

> grains to be the

> > most important food, and red meat to be the least valuable. They

> may have been

> > overconsuming carbs, but I suspect wheat was part of their diet? I

> suppose

> > Heidi would know.

> >

> > Chris

>

January 12, 2004

In a message dated 1/12/04 8:00:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mhysmith@... writes:

> . I can't remember now where I read

> a few years ago but it was an article by paleontologists studying ancient

> Indian remains. They were challenging the accepted belief that Indians were

> quite healthy and said their review showed that they in fact, were

> unhealthy.

Do you mean American Indians? Price excavated Indian skeletons, and found

pre-Columbian Indians to have superior bone structure and thicker skulls to

post-Columbian Indians, which would seem to indicate corn had been the culprit.

Chris

January 12, 2004

In a message dated 1/12/04 8:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> In some of the old books I've read, they do sometimes

> refer to " corn " as in " barleycorn " . So he may have said " corn "

> in the translations, albeit it was probably barley or wheat.

It might help to note that the association of the word " corn " with the maize

plant is purely American, and in " corn " has otherwise referred to all grains

collectively in the English language.

Chris

January 12, 2004

In a message dated 1/12/04 10:03:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mhysmith@... writes:

> ***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates of

> insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

> the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

> population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

> caucasian race.

But native americans *aren't*. Even the ones who subsisted on corn only did

so for several hundred years. Hispanics tend to be genetically geared more

for an Inuit diet than a high-carb diet. And the Inuit are a good example of

folks who are geared for a low-carb diet, and do awful on a high-carb diet.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you implying the opposite is true?

> ***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

> additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

> rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

> womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

> she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem has

> already begun.

I'm not sure what you're saying, and I haven't read anything indicating

insulin resistance starts in the womb. Some people, a select group of people,

are

specifically incapable of properly metabolizing fructose. Perhaps fructose is

evil inherently in some way, I'm not sure. But I'm referring to a specific

metabolic disorder. Or, in any case, a specific, genetic, metabolic

characteristic, to avoid value judgments of genetics.

>

> >I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's made

> some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or may

> not

> be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

> high-fructose

> staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could cause

> major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

> of

> carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

>

> *** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

> Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

> sugars actually.

Who ate corn for thousands of years? The north american indians didn't.

Mexican Indians were cultivating half-inch long corn cobs in 1500 AD. I don't

think anyone's been eating corn for " 1000's of years, " and certainly not any

corn that remotely resembles today's corn.

> >And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

> cause

> the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

>

> *** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

> that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

Agreed. Though, perhaps Heidi can clarify, I'm pretty sure that purified

wheat gluten could produce T1 diabetes itself.

>

> **** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

> consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved.

Yes, on a disease-producing diet. That seems rather tangential, or rather

outside the circle.

With

> magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

> will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency.

No, it would be absolutely physically and chemically impossible for magnesium

to bind with calcium, since both are positively charged ions.

Milk has lactose - another

> bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it.

Traditional societies fermented their milk though, and some didn't, like

Swiss kids, who nevertheless had fantastic teeth. They ate plenty of bread and

milk sugar, and I don't think had any signs of diabetes.

I was saying, in the point you're responding to, that modern diets are not

only high-carb, but low-nutrient, compared to traditional diets.

If a person

> is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

> and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium deficiency

> could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

> causing the insulin resistance problems.

That's kind of a far out theory.

1) Magnesium can't bind calcium. It's impossible.

2) According to Ron Rosedale, insulin itself uses magnesium, so the mechanism

by which insulin directly depletes magnesium is established

3) You need to provide some evidence that there is any correlation between

diabetes and milk drinking

4) You need to explain why milk drinkers who are not diabetic and do not have

insulin resistance nevertheless do not suffer from magnesium deficiency.

5) It would be difficult how populations that subsisted on massive amounts of

milk such as the Masai and other such African tribal groups do not have

magnesium deficiency, despite drinking vastly more milk than any American

diabetic

drinks

>

> >Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

> animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin resistance

> on a

> sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

> intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

> for EFAs,

> and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

>

> **** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

> instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

The seafood they traditionally ate, organ meats, liver. Also, oats supply

GLA. They wouldn't get the enzymes much in the diet, but rather the pre-formed

fatty acids.

> So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

> insulin

> resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

> variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

> carbohydrates is.

>

> *** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production of

> insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

No, that isn't clear, because, as pointed out numerous times, there are

high-carb indigenous diets that don't produce insulin resistance. Furthermore,

there are a variety of variables that will prevent insulin resistance, and EFA's

will prevent insulin resistance even when sugar is deliberately fed to rodents

in the amounts that otherwise cause insulin resistance.

Furthermore, without insulin resistance, carbs do *not* secrete too much

insulin. And high insulin levels to not lead to resistance unless they are

*chronically* elevated. The very high insulin levels you see in insulin

resistant

people would not be found in an insulin sensitive person eating the exact same

amount of carbohydrate.

You are right that carbs are involved, but it is far more complex, not black

and white, than you are making it out to be.

Chris

January 12, 2004

wrote -- << The epidemic of diabetes is because the American diet has taken

the worst all the way around - refined sugar, potatoes, and corn. >>

~~~ and because of the SIZE of the portions served in the US... not sure you

realise the shock to anyone coming to the US for the first time [like I did many

years ago] and seeing how gigantic all food portions are..! EVERYWHERE..!

Dedy

January 12, 2004

>> Tracking back, diabetes was first identified around the time of

>> the introduction of maize (corn) into the human diet. Galen

>> actually named it who would be the one I would pursue reading

>> if interested in old cultures and their health problems as he

>> wrote " the book " that was used as law in medicine for about 1000

>> years.

>

>That's not possible. Galen was born in 129 A.D., over 1,000

>years before maize was introduced from the New World.

In some of the old books I've read, they do sometimes

refer to " corn " as in " barleycorn " . So he may have said " corn "

in the translations, albeit it was probably barley or wheat.

-- Heidi

January 12, 2004

,

You are shattering my world. I thought I had it figured out that the

Europeans won the war against the Indians by giving him sugar for the first

time and he could not tolerate it. But you are right - it actually makes

more sense why the native Indians would be even more sensitive to refined

sugar, have a higher incidence of diabetes, and why their immune systems

were so vulnerable to European diseases. I can't remember now where I read

a few years ago but it was an article by paleontologists studying ancient

Indian remains. They were challenging the accepted belief that Indians were

quite healthy and said their review showed that they in fact, were

unhealthy.

Corn is now a major crop of Egypt but obviously wouldn't have been before

Columbus' travels.

I also thought Galen had taught everyone. He seems to get a lot of the

credit as does Aretaeus but the following article gives the credit to the

Hindu Susrata for the original diagnosis in 1000 BC.

http://scijou.eou.edu/scijou00/node146.html

On this site, they state the Egyptians had treatment for it dating back to

1500 BC. That apparently included herbs and diet - ignored by the Greeks.

http://www.isensecorp.com/history.htm So there had to be someone before

Susrata.

Re: Early Morning Waking

>

> Tracking back, diabetes was first identified around the time of

> the introduction of maize (corn) into the human diet. Galen

> actually named it who would be the one I would pursue reading

> if interested in old cultures and their health problems as he

> wrote " the book " that was used as law in medicine for about 1000

> years.

That's not possible. Galen was born in 129 A.D., over 1,000

years before maize was introduced from the New World.

> He taught Hippocrates.

You must mean that Hippocrates taught Galen, at least in the

sense that Galen was a student of Hippocrates' writings, since

Galen was born almost 600 years after Hippocrates.

> If I remember correctly, Egytians were into maize.

Not the ancient Egyptians, since there was no maize in the Old

World at that time.

January 12, 2004

>There are other issues to consider. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that

overconsumption of carbs doesn't play a role, especially among people who

aren't

genetically accustomed to eating such a diet.

***One thing I am realising today is that those with the highest rates of

insulin resistance are actually more accustomed to such diets. In the US,

the Native American suffers the worst from diabetes with over 50% of their

population, hispanics are second, then the African American, then the

caucasian race.

>But... different carbs, like proteins, can be handled in individual ways.

Corn is relatively high in fructose. Some people can handle a tbsp or

several of glucose without blood sugar disturbances, while having major BG

disturbances

from the same or a lesser amount of high-fructose corn syrup.

***Fructose is suppose to be major bad. That is one of the most common

additives to processed foods which I'm sure has major impact on the high

rates today. As far as low tolerance, insulin resistance can begin in the

womb. A baby shares the mother's metabolism and then once born, eats what

she feeds him/her. A low tolerance would suggest to me, that the problem has

already begun.

>I have a study on specific problems metabolizing fructose. Heidi's made

some mentions of info she's found on " fructose intolerance " which may or may

not

be the same thing I'm talking about. Sudden introduction of a

high-fructose

staple to people not accustomed to eating high-fructose foods could cause

major blood sugar problems that aren't necessarily related to the quantity

of

carbohydrate or its glycemic index.

*** But the 1000's of years of eating corn would suggest that American

Indians and Hispanics should have a high tolerance for fructose and all

sugars actually.

>And of course wheat has its own problems, and gluten intolerance can

cause

the development of anti-pancreatic antibodies.

*** I would agree with that and so saying it does, then the higher carbs

that go with it would be even more stress to the pancreas.

>A third issue is nutrient density. Its clear that certain nutrient

deficiencies, including, but probably not limited to, EFA deficiency and

magnesium

deficiency, play a role in insulin resisntance. It might be that a diet

that is

80% oats but of which the remainder is composed of super-nutrient dense

foods

such as fish heads and livers and shell fish will not cause insulin

resistance,

but a diet that is 80% oats but the remainder of which is muscle meats

might

cause insulin resistance. Since corn is relatively devoid of nutrition,

the

lack of nutrient density in a diet in which corn is a staple might play a

role.

**** But nutrient deficiencies are not always a problem of insufficient

consumption. Malabsorption problems are frequently involved. With

magnesium, if you are consuming milk fortified with calcium, the calcium

will bind the magnesium creating a deficiency. Milk has lactose - another

bad sugar. It is fairly standard in American diet to drink it. If a person

is diabetic, they most likely have been consuming some of the worst sugars

and its reasonable to assume milk was included. So the magnesium deficiency

could well be a reflection of that and really have nothing to do with

causing the insulin resistance problems.

>Since EFA deficiency is associated with insulin resisntance, and since

animal studies show that EFA supplementation will prevent insulin resistance

on a

sugar-rich diet, the Irish may be susceptible not simply due to potato

intake, but due to said intake combined with their documented higher needs

for EFAs,

and desaturase enzyme activity deficiency.

**** So if they were not eating so many potatoes, what should they eat

instead to get those EFAs and enzymes?

So, again, I do not deny that carbs play an role in the etiology of

insulin

resistance, but none of these examples clearly isolate carb intake as a

variable, so it is difficult to establish exactly what the role of

carbohydrates is.

*** The role of carbohydrates is very clear - they cause the production of

insulin, and too many cause too much insulin.

Chris

January 12, 2004

You know the asutralian aboriginal has 2 very bad afflictions since us while

folk gave them a " modern improved life " and go tthem with the times.

Diabetes and alcoholism is just rife through the native aboriginal

community.

_____

From: [mailto:mhysmith@...]

Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2004 1:01 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Early Morning Waking