Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 In a message dated 1/8/04 10:50:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > If eating carbohydrates does not cause insulin resistance what does? There isn't a whole lot known about it, at least compared to what's unknown, but as of yet we could make the following list: -- Magnesium deficiency -- EFA deficiency -- Trans fat intake -- Overweight -- High blood triglycerides -- Chronic overstimulation of insulin/ continual overeating It's not clear whether trans fats actually cause insulin resistance, or if the association exists due to induced EFA deficiency. Overweight association is also somewhat unclear. One thing we do know is that both -- calorie restriction -- alternating feasting and fasting with no calorie restriction both have huge impacts on lowering the fasting insulin levels of mice, and the latter does a better job than the former. The latter group eats as many calories and as many carbs as an ad libitum group of mice, but has the best advantage in terms of insulin sensitivity, showing that the amount of food or carbs one consumes is not in any way an indicator of insulin resistance. Eating starches and sugars all day long could probably contribute to insulin resistance by chronically overstimulating insulin, but if one were to fast from insulin-stimulating foods for the greater portion of the day, and reserve carbs for night-time, like those of us on the Warrior Diet, one could eat just as many carbs while increasing insulin sensitivity, according to the theoretical model we have for how fasting/feasting works. Since carbs induce sleep, this should help one sleep as well. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 The most I've heard about the Warrior Diet is on this list. So I'm not at all familiar with it. I am a die-hard Atkins fan. Have been since his first book in the early 1970s. From all the reading I've done my theory about insulin resistance is that eating the un- " healthy " low-fat diet is a major cause of insulin resistance. Carbs, carbs, nothin' but carbs seems to be the mantra. No matter that they are over processed and stripped of all useful nutrition. No fat and lots of carbs, especially empty ones, in my opinion, are the main causes of insulin resistance. An excellent book is Dr. Schwarzbein's " The Schwarzbein Principle. " She maintains that the degenerative diseases of aging are a direct result of the low-fat, nutrition free diet that everyone is suppose to consume after the age of two. And I agree. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- In a message dated 1/8/04 10:50:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > If eating carbohydrates does not cause insulin resistance what does? There isn't a whole lot known about it, at least compared to what's unknown, but as of yet we could make the following list: -- Magnesium deficiency -- EFA deficiency -- Trans fat intake -- Overweight -- High blood triglycerides -- Chronic overstimulation of insulin/ continual overeating It's not clear whether trans fats actually cause insulin resistance, or if the association exists due to induced EFA deficiency. Overweight association is also somewhat unclear. One thing we do know is that both -- calorie restriction -- alternating feasting and fasting with no calorie restriction both have huge impacts on lowering the fasting insulin levels of mice, and the latter does a better job than the former. The latter group eats as many calories and as many carbs as an ad libitum group of mice, but has the best advantage in terms of insulin sensitivity, showing that the amount of food or carbs one consumes is not in any way an indicator of insulin resistance. Eating starches and sugars all day long could probably contribute to insulin resistance by chronically overstimulating insulin, but if one were to fast from insulin-stimulating foods for the greater portion of the day, and reserve carbs for night-time, like those of us on the Warrior Diet, one could eat just as many carbs while increasing insulin sensitivity, according to the theoretical model we have for how fasting/feasting works. Since carbs induce sleep, this should help one sleep as well. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 In a message dated 1/8/04 11:42:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > From all the reading I've done my theory about insulin resistance is that > eating the un- " healthy " low-fat diet is a major cause of insulin resistance. > Carbs, carbs, nothin' but carbs seems to be the mantra. No matter that they > are over processed and stripped of all useful nutrition. No fat and lots of > carbs, especially empty ones, in my opinion, are the main causes of insulin > resistance. I agree that unhealthy low fat diets would lead to insulin resistance, but since there are indigenous diets that are basically " carbs, carbs, nothin' but carbs " with little in the way of fat, the practicers of whom do not have insulin resistance symptoms, then clearly the amount of carbs is not the most important variable. Chris ______ >You seem to have acquired an ideological opposition to the idea that carbs >can play any role in the development of insulin resistance, but it's quite >clear that they can play a central role. Just for starters, I'd love to >see evidence of someone on a healthy high-fat low-carb diet develop insulin >resistance. Sure they can, which is why I put " >-- Chronic overstimulation of insulin/ continual overeating " in my list. Chronic carb consumption would be equivalent to chronic overstimulation of insulin. Chris ______ >Forgot to mention: given that the Warrior Diet prescribes eating lots of >proteins and fats before eating carbs, there's no way to get as many carbs >on the WD as is possible on the SAD. , *shrug* I eat plenty of carbs. Supposedly the SAD is about 40% fat, so unless its entirely protein deficient, it can't be that much higher in carbs. The WD excludes the pseudofood carbs that SADers eat, which I'm sure is much more important for most people. But the WD hasn't been studied. Rodents given sugar develop T2 diabetes, but if they are given fish oil or certain drugs the sugar-diet rodents don't develop T2 diabetes. Mice who eat fasting-feasting diets have superior insulin sensitivity to both ad libitum mice and calorie-restricted mice. Since the f-f mice aren't given any other regulations in terms of order of food or composition of food, and are eating the exact same food as the other groups, that effectively isolates fasting/feasting alternation as a variable. Both examples above show that any given amount of carbs in a diet can have radically different results vis-a-vis insulin, depending on other variables, such as nutritional factors and feeding regimens. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 In a message dated 1/8/04 5:32:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > Which healthy low-fat high-carb indigenous diets are you referring to? > There are a good number of indigenous diets from Asia and Africa that are carb-based. I'm not claiming these people are paragons of health, but they aren't diabetic. For something familiar, the agricultural Africans Price studied had primarily carb-based diets with little fat. I got the impression that the Gaelick diets were pretty high-carb as well. Fish heads and livers supply plenty of fat-soluble vitamins, but, stuffed with oats, the lion's share of the calories certainly come from the oats. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 In a message dated 1/8/04 6:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > It is my understanding that there is no society that has evolved over time > on a vegetarian diet. The amounts of different types of foods differ greatly > between societies but I am aware of none that are totally vegetarian over > the long haul. I'm not aware of the Standard American Diet resembling anything like vegetarianism. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Chris- You seem to have acquired an ideological opposition to the idea that carbs can play any role in the development of insulin resistance, but it's quite clear that they can play a central role. Just for starters, I'd love to see evidence of someone on a healthy high-fat low-carb diet develop insulin resistance. > > If eating carbohydrates does not cause insulin resistance what does? > >There isn't a whole lot known about it, at least compared to what's unknown, >but as of yet we could make the following list: > >-- Magnesium deficiency >-- EFA deficiency >-- Trans fat intake >-- Overweight >-- High blood triglycerides >-- Chronic overstimulation of insulin/ continual overeating - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Chris- Forgot to mention: given that the Warrior Diet prescribes eating lots of proteins and fats before eating carbs, there's no way to get as many carbs on the WD as is possible on the SAD. >but if one were to fast >from insulin-stimulating foods for the greater portion of the day, and >reserve >carbs for night-time, like those of us on the Warrior Diet, one could eat >just >as many carbs while increasing insulin sensitivity, according to the >theoretical model we have for how fasting/feasting works. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 In a message dated 1/8/04 7:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mhysmith@... writes: > But how many carbs a day, net of fiber, are they consuming and what is the > level of physical activity in such societies? I have no idea. Everyone seems to agree that more physical activity gives you license to eat more carbs, some believe necessitates it, which just proves the point that high-carb diets do not inherently cause insulin resistance, but only in conjunctions with other variables-- such as exercise. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Which " . . .indigenous diets that are basically " carbs, carbs, nothin' but carbs " with little in the way of fat,. . . " are you talking about? It is my understanding that there is no society that has evolved over time on a vegetarian diet. The amounts of different types of foods differ greatly between societies but I am aware of none that are totally vegetarian over the long haul. Judith Alta Re: Insuin resistance In a message dated 1/8/04 11:42:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > From all the reading I've done my theory about insulin resistance is that > eating the un- " healthy " low-fat diet is a major cause of insulin resistance. > Carbs, carbs, nothin' but carbs seems to be the mantra. No matter that they > are over processed and stripped of all useful nutrition. No fat and lots of > carbs, especially empty ones, in my opinion, are the main causes of insulin > resistance. I agree that unhealthy low fat diets would lead to insulin resistance, but since there are indigenous diets that are basically " carbs, carbs, nothin' but carbs " with little in the way of fat, the practicers of whom do not have insulin resistance symptoms, then clearly the amount of carbs is not the most important variable. Chris ______ >You seem to have acquired an ideological opposition to the idea that carbs >can play any role in the development of insulin resistance, but it's quite >clear that they can play a central role. Just for starters, I'd love to >see evidence of someone on a healthy high-fat low-carb diet develop insulin >resistance. Sure they can, which is why I put " >-- Chronic overstimulation of insulin/ continual overeating " in my list. Chronic carb consumption would be equivalent to chronic overstimulation of insulin. Chris ______ >Forgot to mention: given that the Warrior Diet prescribes eating lots of >proteins and fats before eating carbs, there's no way to get as many carbs >on the WD as is possible on the SAD. , *shrug* I eat plenty of carbs. Supposedly the SAD is about 40% fat, so unless its entirely protein deficient, it can't be that much higher in carbs. The WD excludes the pseudofood carbs that SADers eat, which I'm sure is much more important for most people. But the WD hasn't been studied. Rodents given sugar develop T2 diabetes, but if they are given fish oil or certain drugs the sugar-diet rodents don't develop T2 diabetes. Mice who eat fasting-feasting diets have superior insulin sensitivity to both ad libitum mice and calorie-restricted mice. Since the f-f mice aren't given any other regulations in terms of order of food or composition of food, and are eating the exact same food as the other groups, that effectively isolates fasting/feasting alternation as a variable. Both examples above show that any given amount of carbs in a diet can have radically different results vis-a-vis insulin, depending on other variables, such as nutritional factors and feeding regimens. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Chris- Which healthy low-fat high-carb indigenous diets are you referring to? >since there are indigenous diets that are basically " carbs, carbs, nothin' >but >carbs " with little in the way of fat, the practicers of whom do not have >insulin resistance symptoms, then clearly the amount of carbs is not the most >important variable. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 --- In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: > Just for starters, I'd love to > see evidence of someone on a healthy high-fat low-carb diet develop insulin resistance. , I did an NT version of the Atkins diet for about seven months to stabilize my blood sugar levels. It did work as long as I ate regular, high-fat/low-carb meals. But if a meals was delayed or skipped my low blood sugar symptoms would return. If I ate something really high in carbohydrates (even if I never exceeded 60-70 total carbs for the day) or if I didn't eat enough fat then I'd have low blood sugar symptoms – weak, shaky, irritable, etc. But at the time, I considered myself " cured " because as long as I got high-fat/low- carb meals and snacks regularly, I'd be okay. When I tried the WD out of curiosity, I discovered that I could skip meals, eat a potato, and eat less fat, without the low blood sugar symptoms returning. Over Christmas in the middle of the day, I grabbed about five cookies (SAD-type) that I ate all of them while listening to my great uncle gripe about the government. To my amazement, I experienced not a single low blood sugar symptom. So, based on my experience, I'd say that low-carb/high-fat diets can be used as a crutch to manage blood sugar problems, insulin resistance, or whatever you want to call it, but it doesn't cure the problem, and carbs can even be part of the solution. Betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 But how many carbs a day, net of fiber, are they consuming and what is the level of physical activity in such societies? Re: Insuin resistance In a message dated 1/8/04 5:32:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > Which healthy low-fat high-carb indigenous diets are you referring to? > There are a good number of indigenous diets from Asia and Africa that are carb-based. I'm not claiming these people are paragons of health, but they aren't diabetic. For something familiar, the agricultural Africans Price studied had primarily carb-based diets with little fat. I got the impression that the Gaelick diets were pretty high-carb as well. Fish heads and livers supply plenty of fat-soluble vitamins, but, stuffed with oats, the lion's share of the calories certainly come from the oats. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 The main call seems to be, " Eat no meat or animal products. Eats lots of processed carbs, fruit and high starch veggies. " To me that's awfully close to vegetarianism. Not the version that, perhaps, many vegetarians would want to follow, but close anyway. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- In a message dated 1/8/04 6:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > It is my understanding that there is no society that has evolved over time > on a vegetarian diet. The amounts of different types of foods differ greatly > between societies but I am aware of none that are totally vegetarian over > the long haul. I'm not aware of the Standard American Diet resembling anything like vegetarianism. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 There may be something of a logic gap here. To say that high carb intake causes insulin resistance is not saying that if you eat a high carb diet, you will get insulin resistance problems. The same thing goes with smoking and cancer. Smoking causes cancer, but just because a person smokes does not mean they have a guaranteed ticket to cancer. It actually becomes relevant when you get one of these problems and go oh gosh, why did this happen to me. Re: Insuin resistance In a message dated 1/8/04 7:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mhysmith@... writes: > But how many carbs a day, net of fiber, are they consuming and what is the > level of physical activity in such societies? I have no idea. Everyone seems to agree that more physical activity gives you license to eat more carbs, some believe necessitates it, which just proves the point that high-carb diets do not inherently cause insulin resistance, but only in conjunctions with other variables-- such as exercise. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 >There may be something of a logic gap here. > >To say that high carb intake causes insulin resistance is not saying that if >you eat a high carb diet, you will get insulin resistance problems. > >The same thing goes with smoking and cancer. Smoking causes cancer, but >just because a person smokes does not mean they have a guaranteed ticket to >cancer. The deal on insulin resistance seems to be; If you eat carbs while your system is ALREADY full of carbs (i.e. the glycogen stores are full) on a regular basis, you end up getting insulin resistant. So, if you want to name one culprit, it would be *overeating* carbs. Why do Americans overeat? THAT is a big question. It is a lot easier to overeat carbs than to overeat protein and fat, ala Schwartzbein. It is a lot easier to overeat, say, Pepsi, than to overeat oatmeal or apples. In theory, you have a very finely tuned " appestat " that stops you from eating when you don't need more food -- and in nature, that system seems to work very well. Now, the food industry has been working hard to circumvent that which may be part of the answer. There was a special on one of the major networks talking about a new product a chip company wanted to release. They wanted to get Finns (or Swedes, I forget which) to eat chips in the evening. This was a problem, because that culture didn't *snack* -- they ate dinner and that was that. So they were launching an ad campaign to get them to eat snacks watching TV. And of course the snacks are designed to have no " off " switch, so you can gorge and gorge. Given that the system is such that the companies who sell the most snacks survive, the snacks that don't have an " off " switch will sell the most. I am not sure what bypasses the " off " switch exactly, but I do know I can eat a whole bag of potato chips, but cannot for the life of me eat a whole baked potato. And I used to be able to scarf down a whole bag of chocolate chip cookies, but not 3 apples. Sooo ... given survival of the fittest, we'll end up with the snacks that allow *over* eating of carbs. Which will mean, eventually, T2 diabetes for some part of the population. Now, rebelling against this by avoiding ALL carbs seems like poetic justice, to me! But, there are cultures who eat a lot of carbs, like oatmeal and millet and sweet potatoes, as the bulk of their calories. The secret is, they don't overeat. It is really, really difficult to overeat boiled sweet potatoes ... try it sometime. It's about as hard as eating 20 apples in a sitting. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Betsy- >It did work as long as I ate >regular, high-fat/low-carb meals. But if a meals was delayed or >skipped my low blood sugar symptoms would return. It can sometimes be hard, maybe even impossible, to truly, fully repair metabolic problems. Often they can only be treated. I wonder how high-fat and low-carb your meals were, though, if your blood sugar was still that sensitive. If I eat a large and really fatty meal with a reasonable amount of protein and a minimum of carbs, I can go many, many hours without food, even though different meal compensations can cut that interim time to the bone. (Today I had two bacon cheeseburgers made from a pound of beef and a pint of cream, and here I am nine hours later just starting to think about what to eat.) >but it doesn't cure the >problem, and carbs can even be part of the solution. How much in the way of carbs are you eating now? At any rate, it doesn't sound like carbs have cured you, just like you're more resistant to their effects. (I plan on trying the WD one of these days myself, but I have some other things to take care of first.) I also suspect that if you went off the WD, your blood sugar would be just as variable as before -- just as when you went off the high-fat low-carb diet you formerly ate -- which means that, if true, the WD is no more a cure than anything else, just a treatment. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Chris- The Bantu were the least healthy, but even they ate a lot of fat, at least by comparison to the modern prescription for Syndrome X, namely a low-fat high-carb diet. Also, the Gaelic folk ate quite a bit of fat, though they also ate a fair amount of carbs. You're ignoring the sliding scale nature of the problem, which is that all else being equal, once your metabolism is injured, you can't tolerate nearly as many carbs (particularly refined carbs) as you could before. Try putting someone with Syndrome X on the Bantu diet and see how (badly) it works. Also, remember that diabetes cropped up with refined sugar. >For something familiar, the agricultural Africans Price studied had primarily >carb-based diets with little fat. I got the impression that the Gaelick >diets were pretty high-carb as well. Fish heads and livers supply plenty of >fat-soluble vitamins, but, stuffed with oats, the lion's share of the >calories >certainly come from the oats. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Chris- And others believe that athletic performance is enhanced by reducing carbs, not to mention that your fundamental justification for consuming simple carbs in conjunction with workouts (to promote insulin release in order to build muscle) is fundamentally flawed, since lean protein also stimulates insulin, and since insulin is likely more effective at muscle building when it's not occupied with handling blood sugar spikes. >Everyone seems to agree that more physical activity gives >you license to eat more carbs, some believe necessitates it, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 In a message dated 1/8/04 10:50:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > The main call seems to be, " Eat no meat or animal products. Eats lots of > processed carbs, fruit and high starch veggies. " To me that's awfully close > to vegetarianism. Not the version that, perhaps, many vegetarians would want > to follow, but close anyway. Judith, That's what the pundits call for, but that's not what anyone does. So, my point had been that some healthy indigenous groups are as carb-based, if not considerably more carb-based, than ours. Chris _____ >There may be something of a logic gap here. >To say that high carb intake causes insulin resistance is not saying that if >you eat a high carb diet, you will get insulin resistance problems. , I think you're avoiding two key issues: 1) There are healthy indigenous groups, including those Price studied, whose calories came mostly from plant products, and, at that, mostly carb-sources, who, as best we can tell, did not suffer from insulin resistance 2) Animal studies indicate that insulin sensitivity can be modified by several variables without adjusting total carb intake, or percentage carb intake. You can skirt around these issues by not responding to them, or by claiming that entire populations just skipped out on insulin resistance by pure chance like a lucky smoker who fails to get cancer, but you are ultimately just refusing to formulate a logical response to the above claims. Not once did I point to any random set of Americans who eat high-carb diets and have no insulin problems. It is fundamentally different to show entire populations with carb-based diets that have no insulin problems, because it indicates that there is something different about a) the quality of the carb the other nutritional factors in the diet or c) the feeding pattern they practice or some combination thereof, aside from the total carbohydrate intake, or the percentage carbohydrate intake, that causes the difference in the population's response to the carbohydrates, vis-a-vis insulin. Chris _____ The Bantu were the least healthy, but even they ate a lot of fat, I believe Price said they ate 10% animal products. Unless they were relying heavily on nuts, I doubt they ate a lot of fat. Other researchers have claimed they were very low-fat, though they may have overlooked their insect consumption and somewhat random consumption of milk. The fat they did eat was very dense in fat-soluble vitamins, but they ate far less fat than the typical American, and certainly ate more percentage carbs than the SAD. > at least >by comparison to the modern prescription for Syndrome X, namely a low-fat >high-carb diet. That's what's *prescribed* to Syndrome X patients, but that's not what any of them are eating! The SAD is NOT low-fat high-carb. Sure, it's fully of absolutely abhorrent forms of carbs, and lots of them, but Americans tend to, overall, eat about 40% fat or so according to all the surveys done. Even the ones WAPF cites. >Also, the Gaelic folk ate quite a bit of fat, though they >also ate a fair amount of carbs. Did they? In what form? I don't have a copy of NAPD, so I'm going of memory. As I recall, they ate some quantity of nutrient-dense seafood, which doesn't supply that large an amount of fat calories, and the staple of their diet was oats, particularly fish heads stuffed with fermented oats and chopped liver. Weren't they also the ones who fermented oats and kept whole drawer-fulls of them, that they would open up and scoop out the oats as needed? Sure they ate *some* fat, but it doesn't seem remotely reasonable to call this a low-carb diet, or even to say that it is lower-carb than the SAD. It may be lower in total amount of carbs, as well as total amount of food, but the primary source of calories is clearly carbs, is it not? >You're ignoring the sliding scale nature of the problem, which is that all >else being equal, once your metabolism is injured, you can't tolerate >nearly as many carbs (particularly refined carbs) as you could before. Try >putting someone with Syndrome X on the Bantu diet and see how (badly) it works. I'm not ignoring that at all, it just hasn't been brought up yet. I would consider that a point of evidence *against* the idea that carbs per se cause insulin resistance, because it explains why insulin resistant people get better when they stop eating so many carbs. >Also, remember that diabetes cropped up with refined sugar. But not with oats. Chris ______ >And others believe that athletic performance is enhanced by reducing carbs, >not to mention that your fundamental justification for consuming simple >carbs in conjunction with workouts (to promote insulin release in order to >build muscle) is fundamentally flawed, since lean protein also stimulates >insulin, and since insulin is likely more effective at muscle building when >it's not occupied with handling blood sugar spikes. Do you have any figures with which we could estimate the quantity of insulin secreted with, say, 60 grams of protein rather than 20 grams of protein and 40 grams of sugar? I would suspect the sugar would raise insulin more, just because only certain amino acids stimulate insulin, whereas all carbohydrates do, but I haven't looked deeply into it. The amount of insulin secreted by the protein might be sufficient to use the protein, but insulin's primary role is in the domino effect it has on other hormones. Chris ______ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 In a message dated 1/9/04 9:07:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > If they are eating whole food carbs it is quite likely that they are > healthier than most of the people in this country who are eating processed > and fractionated carbs. But they are not as healthy as those eating a meat > and fat based diet. The point is that they aren't diabetic, if we are still discussing insulin resistance. The Bantu had slightly more tooth decay than higher-fat diets Price studied, but they were free from degenerative diseases, and they were vastly healthier than SADers, who eat more fat and protein than they did. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 In a message dated 1/9/04 10:40:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > Read Dr. Schwarzbein's " The Schwarzbein Principle. " She explains very > clearly how the " modern " low fat, high carbohydrate diet is the direct cause > of the degenerative diseases of aging that this country has come to accept. > > Diabetes is a direct result of eating processed carbs and a minimum of meat > and saturated animal fats. > > Yes, people eat a lot of fat in this country. But most of it is > polyunsaturated vegetable oils. A disaster in themselves. Judith, So now you say " processed " carbs, admitting that quality is a factor, not simply quantity. Are you willing to admit, or not, that if the quality is superior, and the diet is overall very nutrient-dense, that one can eat a diet whose primary source of calories is carbohydrates, and be protected from insulin resistance? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 If they are eating whole food carbs it is quite likely that they are healthier than most of the people in this country who are eating processed and fractionated carbs. But they are not as healthy as those eating a meat and fat based diet. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- In a message dated 1/8/04 10:50:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > The main call seems to be, " Eat no meat or animal products. Eats lots of > processed carbs, fruit and high starch veggies. " To me that's awfully close > to vegetarianism. Not the version that, perhaps, many vegetarians would want > to follow, but close anyway. Judith, That's what the pundits call for, but that's not what anyone does. So, my point had been that some healthy indigenous groups are as carb-based, if not considerably more carb-based, than ours. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Read Dr. Schwarzbein's " The Schwarzbein Principle. " She explains very clearly how the " modern " low fat, high carbohydrate diet is the direct cause of the degenerative diseases of aging that this country has come to accept. Diabetes is a direct result of eating processed carbs and a minimum of meat and saturated animal fats. Yes, people eat a lot of fat in this country. But most of it is polyunsaturated vegetable oils. A disaster in themselves. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- In a message dated 1/9/04 9:07:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > If they are eating whole food carbs it is quite likely that they are > healthier than most of the people in this country who are eating processed > and fractionated carbs. But they are not as healthy as those eating a meat > and fat based diet. The point is that they aren't diabetic, if we are still discussing insulin resistance. The Bantu had slightly more tooth decay than higher-fat diets Price studied, but they were free from degenerative diseases, and they were vastly healthier than SADers, who eat more fat and protein than they did. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 In a message dated 1/9/04 10:57:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > Perhaps. But there is more to life than just avoiding insulin resistance. > > The body as a whole requires red meat and the naturally saturated fats that > accompany it. What good does it do to avoid insulin resistance if you die of > other nutrition related deficiencies. > Judith, So when you don't have an argument you change the subject? Of course I agree with this but it is wholly irrelevant from the topic we are discussing, as evidenced by the subject line readable in your browser above. Chris ______ wrote: >This " quantity is the only factor, all carbs are fully evil " thing is a >straw man. It is? made numerous posts equating carbohydrate intake with insulin resistance, which implicitly necessitates the belief that carbs per se cause insulin resistance, such as: ___ >Actually carbs are the worse thing to eat for sleep and are the cause of >most sleep problems.The following is an except from one of Atkins books >explaining insulin resistance problems (blood sugar) and their connection to >sleep problems. ___ When I pointed out that this was equating carbohydrate intake with insulin resistance, she wrote: ___ > " Beg to differ, but insulin and carbohydrates go hand in hand, as does >carbohydrates and insulin resistance problems. " ___ Rather than going through the whole thread again, the debate has centered around the two positions that -- the amount of carbohydrates is directly implicated in insulin resistance versus -- the amount of carbohydrates is relatively immaterial, and the operative factors are timing of meals, nutrient density of diet, and quality of carbs The discussion began about whether carbs should be used to sleep. 's argument was that carbs do not help one sleep. Her evidence was that insulin resistance causes sleeping problems. This is a non-sequitor, and equates carb consumption with insulin resistance. She must take the first position listed above, or else the argument could not be made to avoid carbs before bed. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Perhaps. But there is more to life than just avoiding insulin resistance. The body as a whole requires red meat and the naturally saturated fats that accompany it. What good does it do to avoid insulin resistance if you die of other nutrition related deficiencies. Judith Alta -----Original Message----- In a message dated 1/9/04 10:40:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jaltak@... writes: > Read Dr. Schwarzbein's " The Schwarzbein Principle. " She explains very > clearly how the " modern " low fat, high carbohydrate diet is the direct cause > of the degenerative diseases of aging that this country has come to accept. > > Diabetes is a direct result of eating processed carbs and a minimum of meat > and saturated animal fats. > > Yes, people eat a lot of fat in this country. But most of it is > polyunsaturated vegetable oils. A disaster in themselves. Judith, So now you say " processed " carbs, admitting that quality is a factor, not simply quantity. Are you willing to admit, or not, that if the quality is superior, and the diet is overall very nutrient-dense, that one can eat a diet whose primary source of calories is carbohydrates, and be protected from insulin resistance? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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