Re: Stomach acid dilemma

[Guest guest]

>Though I haven't actually gotten myself tested, I'm all but positive my

>stomach acid production is severely deficient. For one thing, though I eat

>plenty of protein (some kind of beef or other ruminant meat almost every

>day, 6+ eggs almost every day, sausage almost every day, some raw

>proteinaceous animal foods most or at least many days, etc.) I have various

>signs of protein malabsorption and insufficiency

:

I don't recall what all you eat, but lack of absorption is one of those

" damaged gut " issues that is commonly caused by IgA allergy. Those

kinds of issues ALSO cause lack of HCL and enzymes. And possibly

the reverse also, it may be a vicious spiral.

IgA (and maybe IgG?) allergies

cause damage to the upper intestine, and the little villi absorbers

don't absorb -- even when the enzymes do the digesting. I know

we've discussed this at great length in the past so I won't go

into details again.

Glutamine can help heal the gut, and drinking red wine with meals

helps me a lot, and the WD protocol (only stressing out the gut

once a day) seems to help a lot. Kimchi with meals helps a lot

too, and of course enzymes and HCL.

But, if you do have an IgA allergy, it won't REALLY get better

unless you know what causes it. The usual culprits are:

WBR grains (even one beer a day is enough to keep it from

healing), casein, yeast, soy, and eggs. It's taken me about

2 years to heal, at least to the point I have, but I rarely

need enzymes now. I've also heard some people get the

same symptoms from fructose, but I kind of doubt you

are guzzling pop ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

, have you checked into whether you have a hiatus hernia? Have

you done the complete probiotics trip with something like cabbage

rejuvelac? Have you checked into whether you have candida? All of

these can cause serious digestive problems like you describe.

Bee

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> I'm stuck in a bit of a catch-22 that I'd really appreciate some

help with.

>

> Though I haven't actually gotten myself tested, I'm all but

positive my

> stomach acid production is severely deficient. For one thing,

though I eat

> plenty of protein (some kind of beef or other ruminant meat almost

every

> day, 6+ eggs almost every day, sausage almost every day, some raw

> proteinaceous animal foods most or at least many days, etc.) I have

various

> signs of protein malabsorption and insufficiency. I also have poor

> digestion and very, very frequent food poisoning, and the food

poisoning

> problem has gotten appreciably worse over the last few years

(possibly

> sparked by a period spent taking Singulair, an asthma medication)

as my

> symptoms of protein malabsorption have cropped up and worsened.

Pancreatin

> and probiotic supplementation help somewhat, but they only

ameliorate the

> problems, they don't eliminate them, and they obviously haven't

stopped the

> worsening of certain conditions.

>

> The dilemma I have is that while HCl supplementation radically

improves

> some problems, it creates others, and those others have plagued me

every

> time I've tried it without fail.

>

> First, the good. I haven't had the runs once during any trial run

of HCl

> supplementation, and in fact I've had perfectly-formed stools

without fail,

> something that almost never happens otherwise. I also don't get

tired

> after a large meal (even a REALLY large meal of 3-4,000 calories --

I'm

> 6'3 " or 6'4 " and about 215#, so I'm always going to need a lot of

food,

> particularly if I lose a bit more fat and put on some extra muscle)

whereas

> I often would otherwise, even a very low-carb meal. Furthermore, I

have

> more energy and seem to be getting more benefit from the food I eat.

>

> The bad, unfortunately, is very bad. Despite the alternate-

medicine view

> that acid reflux problems are often or always the result of stomach

acid

> insufficiency, HCl supplementation seems to cause reflux in me even

though

> I either never have it otherwise or only have it at undetectable

> levels. Worse yet, it's getting into my lungs. On another trial

run I was

> stuck in an extremely moldy place and didn't realize that the lung

symptoms

> I was experiencing were largely due to the HCl and not entirely

caused by

> the mold until I got very, very sick. (I've had asthma all my

life,

> sometimes very bad, and mold is one of the most powerful triggers

for

> me.) This time around I've taken less and made sure to only take

it after

> big meals, but the problem is still developing, just more slowly.

>

> Obviously I can't continue this supplementation indefinitely

without doing

> something about the reflux, but I also can't very well just give up

on the

> digestion problem either. I'm stuck between a rock and a rock, and

I'd

> very much appreciate any advice or suggestions any of you can

offer. Are

> there other forms of HCl that might be friendlier to my system? Do

I need

> to get a doctor to peer down my throat to see if there's some kind

of

> defect with my lower esophageal sphincter? If so, what can even be

done

> about that? I'd imagine surgery would be quite costly, and most

medical

> types would just want to put me on acid inhibitors or antacids

anyway,

> which would be patently disastrous.

>

> I expect some of you will suggest Zypan, the Standard Process

pancreatin &

> HCl supplement, but I've already tried it, and I can only assume

that the

> amounts of pancreatin and HCl it contains are in line with the

amounts of

> vitamins and minerals and whatnot in other SP products --

practically

> homeopathic in their near-absence -- because I didn't noticed any

kind of

> positive reaction to it, and when I substituted Zypan for my normal

> pancreatin supplement, I started getting my old pre-pancreatin-

supplement

> symptoms back after awhile. To be fair, I never took more than 3

tablets

> with a meal, so maybe I would've benefited from a much higher dose,

but at

> that level the cost would start getting absurd and unmanageable,

and I'd be

> concerned about the amount of honey I'd wind up having with every

meal,

> since those tablets are very sweet.

>

> After the discussion of pyroluria here on the list, I recently

started

> supplementing with fairly high levels of zinc and B6 to see what

happens,

> but I haven't had time for any results to develop. (I don't know

that I

> have pyroluria, though the symptoms seem like a very good fit, and

an even

> better fit for some family members) but since zinc and B6 are

essential to

> the production of HCl and digestive enzymes and I'm pretty clearly

severely

> deficient in both I thought it would be a worthwhile experiment.

But at

> best that's a long-term solution when I really need a shorter-term

one if

> at all possible.

>

> TIA,

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

, I suggest drinking bone broths daily to start healing the digestive tract.

Go to the following WAP article and do a find on the word 'digest' (it is a very

dense

article).

http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/brothisbeautiful.html

Also you don't mention probiotic foods. I suggest that 24-hour yogurt (if you're

sensitive to lactose) and raw sauerkraut would be priorities under the

circumstances.

Also could you be overdoing the protein? We always talk about overdoing the

carb

but isn't it possible that one could take in more protein than one's body can

secrete

digestive enzymes for? I would consider taking some of your calories from

easy-to-

digest carbs, like you'd feed a baby -- banana, orange, sweet potato (mashed

with

butter and good salt), maybe moving on to buckwheat (which isn't glutenous).

Also I would de-emphasize the raw animal foods until the digestion is stronger,

speculating that low HCL might be letting some bad bugs survive.

I'm of the belief that digestive problems, in particular, are indicative of

dietary

problems and should be addressed with food before supplements. (Admittedly I

came

to this conclusion by being too poor to afford much in the way of supplements,

although we do CLO, magnesium, vitamin c, and concentrace.)

Daphne

> I'm stuck in a bit of a catch-22 that I'd really appreciate some help with.

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>I don't recall what all you eat, but lack of absorption is one of those

> " damaged gut " issues that is commonly caused by IgA allergy.

Yes, but my problem appears to occur partly before the food ever reaches

the intestinal tract. I guess anything's possible, but I really don't

think I'm wrong about being deficient in HCl.

>Those

>kinds of issues ALSO cause lack of HCL and enzymes.

Intestinal damage causes the stomach to secrete less HCl?

>and the WD protocol (only stressing out the gut

>once a day)

Do you think the WD helped acid production?

>but I kind of doubt you

>are guzzling pop ...

No, definitely not. I'm grain-free and pretty much starch-free, but of

course I do eat eggs and cream and fermented dairy.

Unfortunately, it appears to be an unknown whether stomach acid production

can ever be restored. I would think with the proper nutritional measures

(foods like oysters and liver, supplementation, etc. -- though eating lots

of raw liver hasn't seemed ot help) that progress could be made over time,

but I really need a quicker fix, and the proximate trouble is that HCl

supplementation, which has so many positive effects, also seems to be

causing reflux. Do I need to dose my HCl supplementation precisely

according to the amount of food -- or the amount of protein -- in a

meal? Is there any way to do that? Or is the problem in some other

department entirely?

-

[Guest guest]

Bee-

>have you checked into whether you have a hiatus hernia?

No, but I have been wondering lately whether something like that could be

the problem. Unfortunately, I don't see how I could possibly afford surgery.

>Have

>you done the complete probiotics trip with something like cabbage

>rejuvelac?

Oh yeah, I've tried all sorts of probiotics.

> Have you checked into whether you have candida? All of

>these can cause serious digestive problems like you describe.

I likely used to have candida, and I expect if I returned to a high-carb

diet it would return, but no, there are no signs that it's active now.

-

[Guest guest]

Daphne-

>I suggest drinking bone broths daily to start healing the digestive tract.

Already done. Well, almost. I do run out of broths and soups

semi-regularly, but I've been making a lot of them for quite awhile.

>Also you don't mention probiotic foods. I suggest that 24-hour yogurt (if

>you're

>sensitive to lactose) and raw sauerkraut would be priorities under the

>circumstances.

Unfortunately, cabbage-based foods don't seem to work well for me, but I do

eat probiotic foods (including 24-hour yoghurt, which I've championed on

this list many times).

>Also could you be overdoing the protein?

Highly unlikely. If anything I could be underdoing it, having too little

protein relative to the fat I consume. I suppose I should try to calculate

my actual ratio.

>I would consider taking some of your calories from easy-to-

>digest carbs, like you'd feed a baby -- banana, orange, sweet potato

>(mashed with

>butter and good salt), maybe moving on to buckwheat (which isn't glutenous).

No can do. I require a low-carb diet for even such health as I have.

>Also I would de-emphasize the raw animal foods until the digestion is

>stronger,

>speculating that low HCL might be letting some bad bugs survive.

I only eat raw from sources I know are clean, believe me.

-

[Guest guest]

,

Agree with both Heidi and Bee here due to my personal experience. Have both

quit gluten, done l-glutamine healing and taken olive leaf extract for

possible candida or infective diabetes Mercola reviewed. Both were big helps

to digestion. Next best to coconut. Yogurt is closest to probiotic I do. No

enzymes, HCL either. Effort to avoid long term costs main reason for the

route. Used to have acid reflux all the time on SAD. Only time now is if I

eat too much protein or protein alone. Hiatal hernia runs in hubby's family.

Mom and sister have. Both on prescriptions. Hubby gets it if he overeats.

Has to sit up in bed to go to sleep. Hasn't happened in last year since diet

change.

Wanita

Re: Re: Stomach acid dilemma

> Bee-

>

> >have you checked into whether you have a hiatus hernia?

>

> No, but I have been wondering lately whether something like that could be

> the problem. Unfortunately, I don't see how I could possibly afford

surgery.

>

> >Have

> >you done the complete probiotics trip with something like cabbage

> >rejuvelac?

>

> Oh yeah, I've tried all sorts of probiotics.

>

> > Have you checked into whether you have candida? All of

> >these can cause serious digestive problems like you describe.

>

> I likely used to have candida, and I expect if I returned to a high-carb

> diet it would return, but no, there are no signs that it's active now.

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

>Heidi-

>

>>I don't recall what all you eat, but lack of absorption is one of those

>> " damaged gut " issues that is commonly caused by IgA allergy.

>

>Yes, but my problem appears to occur partly before the food ever reaches

>the intestinal tract. I guess anything's possible, but I really don't

>think I'm wrong about being deficient in HCl.

I am absolutely not sure how this works, but I commonly react to

a food my body doesn't like within 10 minutes. Mostly in my

gut, which has IBS-type symptoms (cramping) and my lower

lip, which tingles. Then I get another set of symptoms

in an hour or two (which is when, I presume, it is beginning

to reach the upper gut).

The IBS cramping is common, it seems ... some kind of

nervous system reaction. Which isn't what you have,

AFAIK, but it would seem the body DOES know what you

just ate and it reacting to it.

I *don't* think you are wrong about being short on HCL though.

> >Those

>>kinds of issues ALSO cause lack of HCL and enzymes.

>

>Intestinal damage causes the stomach to secrete less HCl?

It's not necessarily the " Intestinal damage " . The IgA immune

reaction causes damage all over the body and it's

just beginning to be studied. I have no idea WHY it occurs,

but the folks who I talk to invariably get low HCL,

pancreatic enzymes, gall bladder problems ... which

take a long time to heal. It seems to be related

to autoimmune actions ... from what Mercola

calls " molecular mimecry " . Might be from leaky gut

though, if a lot of substances get in the blood it might

set the immune system into a tailspin.

>

>No, definitely not. I'm grain-free and pretty much starch-free, but of

>course I do eat eggs and cream and fermented dairy.

Is there more reflux after some types of meals than others?

>Unfortunately, it appears to be an unknown whether stomach acid production

>can ever be restored. I would think with the proper nutritional measures

>(foods like oysters and liver, supplementation, etc. -- though eating lots

>of raw liver hasn't seemed ot help) that progress could be made over time,

>but I really need a quicker fix, and the proximate trouble is that HCl

>supplementation, which has so many positive effects, also seems to be

>causing reflux. Do I need to dose my HCl supplementation precisely

>according to the amount of food -- or the amount of protein -- in a

>meal? Is there any way to do that? Or is the problem in some other

>department entirely?

I don't know. In my case too much HCL might have caused

a little reflux, but I usually only get reflux from eating foods

my body doesn't like for some reason (in my case, usually

if the food has butter in it). " Why stomach acid is good

for you " has a lot of hints on reflux ... supposedly high

stomach acid HELPS reflux, but he also recommends some

herbs (kimchi with a meal is good for me ... he recommends

ginger, I think, and kimchi is high in ginger).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> Do I need to dose my HCl supplementation precisely

according to the amount of food -- or the amount of protein -- in a

meal? Is there any way to do that? Or is the problem in some other

department entirely? <<

, my mom had this same problem, and what she learned is she can only take

HCI as needed, not as a regular supplement. She tried so many different things,

but she now simply takes it when she needs it, and otherwise, not, and she's

having the best digestive health she's had in her entire life! She's very

pleased. I will get more details from her on how she figured this out if you

want!

Christie

[Guest guest]

Christie-

Please, yes, more details! If I could figure out how to dose it and when

to use it such that it improved digestion without causing reflux I'd be a

very happy boy!

>, my mom had this same problem, and what she learned is she can only

>take HCI as needed, not as a regular supplement. She tried so many

>different things, but she now simply takes it when she needs it, and

>otherwise, not, and she's having the best digestive health she's had in

>her entire life! She's very pleased. I will get more details from her on

>how she figured this out if you want!

-

[Guest guest]

--- Idol <Idol@...> wrote: >

After the discussion of pyroluria here on the list,

> I recently started

> supplementing with fairly high levels of zinc and B6

> to see what happens,

> but I haven't had time for any results to develop.

> (I don't know that I

> have pyroluria, though the symptoms seem like a very

> good fit, and an even

> better fit for some family members) but since zinc

> and B6 are essential to

> the production of HCl and digestive enzymes and I'm

> pretty clearly severely

> deficient in both I thought it would be a worthwhile

> experiment. But at

> best that's a long-term solution when I really need

> a shorter-term one if

> at all possible.

>

I'm afraid I can't help with the rest of your post,

but in the small amount of research I've done on leaky

gut and pyroluria, it would appear that the results of

B6 and zinc supplementation can be seen within a

matter of weeks (some said 2-3, others said a couple

of months). 2-3 sites mentioned that the supplements

would have to be taken in the long term for pyroluria,

however I get the impression that leaky gut is

curable.

I currently take a zinc & copper supplement, and B

complex. When they run out, I will switch to just

zinc and B6.

Jo

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[Guest guest]

,

<<<The dilemma I have is that while HCl supplementation radically

improves

some problems, it creates others, and those others have plagued me

every

time I've tried it without fail.>>>

I also had unusual experiences with HCl. The first few times I used

it, I would only take one capsule and the next time I had a bowel

movement, it would really, really burn. Everything else was normal.

This happened the next several consecutive times I took the HCl.

Then, when it stopped happening, I took two capsules. This resulted

in a round of fierce diarrhea accompanied by the most severe

abdominal pain and cramping I'd ever had before in my life. The very

next bowel movement was completely normal. After this happened a few

times, I abandoned HCl, hoping the zinc and B6 would " kick in " and my

body would start making HCl.

Evidently the digestive tract is the last to know that I'm taking

extra B6 and zinc, because my digestion had not improved. I decided

to give HCl another try earlier last week. I combined it with extra

pancrean enzymes. I took 2 pancrean enzymes and 2 HCl (that also

contained pancrean enzymes) for several meals and ate only cooked or

fermented vegetables, broth, and coconut oil. I still had the usual

bloating, none of the previous problems, but lots of extra gas,

burping, and burning in my diaphragm area, which I assume was acid

reflux (never had it before). This happened for several days with

symptoms diminishing slightly each day. Saturday night I experienced

no burning and no bloating after my meal. Because I was really

hungry after being eating only broth and veggies once a day for the

week, I took one additional enzyme and HCl capsule, for a total of 3

each, and ate eggs, sausage, and some potato salad. No bloating,

burning, burping, gas, or anything after that meal. Sunday night I

ate my regular evening meal and, again, no bloating or anything.

I don't know exactly why I had problems. Maybe I had so many

undigested proteins in my system, my digestive system was overwhelmed

when I took the enzymes. Maybe there was some kind of die-off

reaction from all the bacteria feeding on undigested protein. Maybe

the mechanism that neutralizes acid took a few tries to work

properly. Maybe my stomach acid was so low the sphincter valve

atrophied and took awhile to start working again. Anyway, I chalked

up the weird experience to my digestive system smoothing out after

the experience of never having enough enzymes or acid to work

correctly followed by suddenly having lots of enzymes and acid.

Kinda like the MG my husband had in college. After it sat for

several weeks, it was hard to get the top down. Then it wouldn't

start. When he did get it started, it would cough, sputter, and die

a lot, and the engine would make a lot of unusual noises. But after

a few trips around the block, it would suddenly start working again

(or at least as well as an MG ever works).

<<<After the discussion of pyroluria here on the list, I recently

started

supplementing with fairly high levels of zinc and B6 to see what

happens,

but I haven't had time for any results to develop. (I don't know that

I

have pyroluria, though the symptoms seem like a very good fit, and an

even

better fit for some family members) >>>

If you do have pyroluria, I've found that you can expect atypical

responses to remedies that normally help everyone else. For

instance, cod liver oil made things worse for me, tryptophan did not

help me sleep, and I could go on.

A quick word on gluten – I was rereading the section on food

allergies in NT, and Sally said that a B6 deficiency causes gluten

intolerance. I've been trying to ignore Heidi's anti-gluten

propaganda, but I'm beginning to think that she may be on to

something. (If your really quiet, you may be able to hear Heidi

yelling " DUH! " into her computer screen as she reads this) If a B6

deficiency really causes gluten intolerance and leaky gut, and gluten

is really as bad as Heidi and " Dangerous Grains " say it is, then it

could be impossible to have normal digestion without avoiding gluten

and any other food allergies that it caused. Incidentally, my only

success with HCl came several days after I simultaneously quit eating

gluten, corn, and dairy products. I don't know if it is coincidence

or not, and I plan to do more research and thinking before I rule out

any food forever, but it is probably worth experimenting with

avoiding common allergens like corn, casein, eggs, etc if symptoms of

a B6 deficiency (whether from pyroluria or something else) are

present.

Cara

[Guest guest]

>> Please, yes, more details! If I could figure out how to dose it and when

to use it such that it improved digestion without causing reflux I'd be a

very happy boy! <<

I'll ask her for the details and post them.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Bee:> >have you checked into whether you have a hiatus hernia?

>

> No, but I have been wondering lately whether something like that

could be

> the problem. Unfortunately, I don't see how I could possibly

afford surgery.<<<<

, surgery is very rarely necessary. I have a hiatus hernia but I

can massage it back into place. It can cause heart burn and a very

upset stomach. A naturopath identified it first, and he did Shiatzu

treatments to get it back in place. At the time I also had ulcers in

the duodenum area, caused by that pylori bacteria, which he treated

with capsules of variety of herbs. If you do have one it is

important how you bend and lift. I used to have an attack every time

I move apartments.

>

> >Have you done the complete probiotics trip with something like

cabbage

> >rejuvelac?

>

> Oh yeah, I've tried all sorts of probiotics.

" Tried or seriously done it? " Implanting enough healthy organisms

requires consistency and time. When my system was wrecked I treated

it for about 2-1/2 years consistently - it depends upon how long your

system has been screwed up. Mine was 25 years.

Have you ever suspected that dairy isn't good for you, or any other

sensitivities?

If you have a good naturopath maybe try to see him/her and get a

thorough going over on what is happening. It is much more accurate

than someone who isn't able to fully evaluate it and see you in

person.

You are doing everything possible diet-wise Pau. I wish you the

best. Keep us posted on your progress, etc.

Bee

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have similiar problems which I discovered are due to leaky gut. I

would suggest doing a search on it and reading some of the info to

get an idea of how things work. I have found relief though HCI

w/pepsin, Peptizyde, Pancreatin, and probiotics. I don't eat as much

animal products just yet, easing into it, but when I have any type of

protein I take 1 HCI for every 20grams. This works for me. I take it

in the middle of the meal, but my enzymes beforehand. Less than 20

grams, I play it by ear or um, belly. This cheap Ultra Pancreatin

supplement for like 10-13$ for 100 has helped sooo much it makes me

want to scream thinking about all the money I spent on other brands.

My symptoms appear very quickly also, within an hour of finishing a

meal. I am going to try a high quality elemental amino acid product

for a few weeks to give my gut a chance to heal as when you are

having reactions it is inflamed and cannot heal.

I also had asthma my whole life, though cutting out grains, legumes

and dairy eradicated it within a few months. My worst symptom right

now is excema, which is ok as long as I keep protein relatively low,

which sucks as I have little pits in my nails and am tired with mild

edema and can't build muscle, hence the amino acid experiment.

Coconut oil has helped alot with gastrointestinal discomfort.

The acid, enzymes, zinc deficiency, and leaky gut are all connected;

candida is often part of the picture. Mine is gone, too, but when

they are there, they burrow into the intestinal wall(mmm, cozy) and

then they die and leave holes. Not very scientific, but it gives a

nice visual. The vicious cycle thing is extremely frustrating and it

takes alot to break it so hang in there. If you fix your digestion,

you will be able to breathe easily, so that is a nice reward to look

forward to. You can heal yourself.

take care,

Sincerely,

Michele

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>I *don't* think you are wrong about being short on HCL though.

No, I very much doubt I am. The depressing thing is that I apparently

can't just take supplementary HCl, even in the short term, unless there's

some trick that'll work for me that Christie's mom or someone else can let

me know about.

>Might be from leaky gut

>though, if a lot of substances get in the blood it might

>set the immune system into a tailspin.

I suppose so. I can't figure why HCl production specifically would be

impaired, but then the whole system's quite complex, and I know a good deal

less about it even than what's currently known, so that's no surprise.

>Is there more reflux after some types of meals than others?

Not that I can tell. It's not something that happens immediately, and I

haven't had any acute (or even noticeable) attacks. It's just that over

time, my esophagus and lungs are being hurt, as though there's a steady,

low-grade leak.

> " Why stomach acid is good

>for you " has a lot of hints on reflux ... supposedly high

>stomach acid HELPS reflux, but he also recommends some

>herbs (kimchi with a meal is good for me ... he recommends

>ginger, I think, and kimchi is high in ginger).

Urk. My mom was hospitalized recently and I lent her my copy before I'd

had a chance to read it, but I guess I'll have to get it back. I keep

meaning to now that I'm having this problem. Ginger, though, is good to

know, since I love it, and I can always make ginger tea or add some ginger

to a meal. (Well, usually on that latter part. <g>)

-

[Guest guest]

Jo-

Interesting, thanks. Well, that gives me a time scale in which to expect

results if I'm going to see them. I should note on my calendar when I

started the supplementation, then.

>it would appear that the results of

>B6 and zinc supplementation can be seen within a

>matter of weeks (some said 2-3, others said a couple

>of months).

-

[Guest guest]

Bee-

>I have a hiatus hernia but I

>can massage it back into place. It can cause heart burn and a very

>upset stomach.

Hmm, that doesn't sound like me, then. I virtually never feel nauseated,

and in palpating my stomach and chest, I can't feel anything painful or

even movable. That doesn't rule out a lower esophogeal sphincter problem,

though.

> " Tried or seriously done it? "

Gone on heavy-duty long-lasting regimens.

>Have you ever suspected that dairy isn't good for you, or any other

>sensitivities?

I'm lactose-intolerant, and I would like to try going dairy-free, but in

order to replace the dairy fat I'm going to have to make an enormous amount

of different kinds of sausages beforehand.

>If you have a good naturopath maybe try to see him/her and get a

>thorough going over on what is happening.

Don't I wish. I've yet to find an all-around good doctor, or one I'd trust

with unknown problems.

-

[Guest guest]

>> The depressing thing is that I apparently

can't just take supplementary HCl, even in the short term, unless there's

some trick that'll work for me that Christie's mom or someone else can let

me know about. <<

, I just talked to my mom at length and she said to tell you this:

She gets a feeling she has come to recognize, that she describes as feeling

" bloated " and like her food isn't digesting. She couldn't describe it better

than that, but it's an uncomfortable feeling.

That day, she will take ONE HCI pill right after a large meal. Not before, not

during. It only works if she takes it after. She uses a product that suggests

taking 1-2 pills during a meal, she is going to call me after she gets home and

can look at the label.

That is the ONLY pill she takes that day. She may have to repeat this two or

three days in a row, but as soon as she feels normal again, she stops. If she

keeps taking it, she gets reflux and heartburn from hell.

This plus low carb has completely cured nearly SIXTY YEARS of IBS, constipation

and heartburn for her. But at first she thought it was hopeless, because the

burning and reflux were impossible to bear as long as she took the HCI. But now

that she has found the routine that works, she has enjoyed the longest stretches

of normal digestive health she's ever known.

She said to feel free to ask her any questions and she'll try to help!

Christie

[Guest guest]

Christie-

>That day, she will take ONE HCI pill right after a large meal. Not before,

>not during. It only works if she takes it after. She uses a product that

>suggests taking 1-2 pills during a meal, she is going to call me after she

>gets home and can look at the label.

Huh, interesting. I'll be very interested to hear what the product is and

what the recommended dose is versus what she actually takes, since that, at

least, is something I can definitely control.

>That is the ONLY pill she takes that day. She may have to repeat this two

>or three days in a row, but as soon as she feels normal again, she stops.

>If she keeps taking it, she gets reflux and heartburn from hell.

Interesting. So she'll actually go days without taking any? I missed HCl

with a couple meals in a row the other day, and without getting graphic and

disgusting, my digestion suffered a little.

Many thanks, and I'm eager to hear the rest. This time around I've been

using Twinlab, which is hardly a great product, just because health food

stores have so little in the way of stomach acid supplements and this was

the only one in capsule form -- and yet they have entire shelves devoted to

acid suppressants. A great, helpful world we live in.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have been having some of the same digestive difficulties you are

experiencing. I am adjusting the amount of HCl according to the size

of the meal and that is helping.

I agree with Bee. You may need an adjustment if you have a hiatal

hernia. If you decide you want the name of an osteopathic doctor I

might be able to supply you with the name of one who is highly

qualified. I would need to know where you are located in

S.California. Get in touch if you are interested.

Sheila

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Christie-

>

> Please, yes, more details! If I could figure out how to dose it

and when

> to use it such that it improved digestion without causing reflux

I'd be a

> very happy boy!

>

> >, my mom had this same problem, and what she learned is she

can only

> >take HCI as needed, not as a regular supplement. She tried so many

> >different things, but she now simply takes it when she needs it,

and

> >otherwise, not, and she's having the best digestive health she's

had in

> >her entire life! She's very pleased. I will get more details from

her on

> >how she figured this out if you want!

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Sheila-

>I am adjusting the amount of HCl according to the size

>of the meal and that is helping.

I wish I could say the same, but so far I don't seem to be noticing an

improvement from trying to calibrate my dosage. I could be way off in my

calibration, though.

>I

>might be able to supply you with the name of one who is highly

>qualified. I would need to know where you are located in

>S.California.

Thanks for the offer, but unfortunately it wouldn't help, since I live in

NYC. I suppose there've got to be some good ones here, though.

-

[Guest guest]

>> Huh, interesting. I'll be very interested to hear what the product is and

what the recommended dose is versus what she actually takes, since that, at

least, is something I can definitely control.<<

Hi, - this is what she just read me over the phone:

Nature's Life Betaine Hydrochloride, with 130 mg pepsin digestive supplement

It suggests 1-2 capsules with each meal. She takes instead 1 capsule after one

meal, and then stops. If her symptoms persist, she repeats that the next day

(not the next meal). The most she takes it is three days in a row, before she is

symptom-free, but the symptoms get substantially better immediately.

>> Interesting. So she'll actually go days without taking any? I missed HCl

with a couple meals in a row the other day, and without getting graphic and

disgusting, my digestion suffered a little. <<

She goes many days, even a week or more, without needing any. I'm not sure what

would happen if she took it, say, once every five days, or whatever. She feels

good about her current regimen. She also said to tell you that she took it as

recommended on the label at first, and took it for maybe 3 weeks before she

started having the reflux/burning. She ignored that feeling for a while longer,

but finally stopped the HCI supplement entirely for several weeks, and then

ended up right back where she started. So she started playing around with the

dosage, looking for the amount and schedule that kept her symptom-free.

I hope this helps, and she does too!

Christie

[Guest guest]

Cara-

>Then, when it stopped happening, I took two capsules. This resulted

>in a round of fierce diarrhea accompanied by the most severe

>abdominal pain and cramping I'd ever had before in my life.

Huh. Interesting how different people respond differently. I sometimes

get the burning movement of fire when I have the runs, but for all the

damage it's done to my throat and lungs, HCl has been an absolute miracle

for my digestion.

>This happened for several days with

>symptoms diminishing slightly each day.

How I wish my side effects would diminish with each passing day, but the

opposite seems to be happening. I've got to get my copy of _Why Stomach

Acid Is Good For You_ back, but I guess I may have to see a doctor to find

out what, physically, is going on in there. How depressing.

>If you do have pyroluria, I've found that you can expect atypical

>responses to remedies that normally help everyone else. For

>instance, cod liver oil made things worse for me,

Interesting. CLO makes me extraordinarily fatigued and sleepy. I've lost

entire clumps of days to attempts to use CLO, and I've always wondered why.

>but it is probably worth experimenting with

>avoiding common allergens like corn, casein, eggs, etc if symptoms of

>a B6 deficiency (whether from pyroluria or something else) are

>present.

The conundrum I'm faced with is fat: without dairy and eggs, I don't see

how I can meet my enormous daily requirement for dietary fat. Sausage is

great, but I don't want to be having it three meals a day every day. That

just wouldn't work.

Thanks for relating your experiences, though. They give me more data to

chew on in trying to figure this out.

-

[Guest guest]

Michele-

Eliminating grain-fed dairy went a long way towards reducing my asthma, but

unfortunately there are still some persistent environmental factors giving

me trouble, and obviously I've not reached nearly good enough health to be

able to shrug them off without ill effect. This whole diet/digestion

problem is getting to be a real catch-22...

>I also had asthma my whole life, though cutting out grains, legumes

>and dairy eradicated it within a few months.

-