Re: ONE MORE GO AROUND: What about B.E.D.?

January 10, 2004

>Looking at Donna Gates book, and talking to reputable people like the

>Sunnewald people in York, PA, I've been v. impressed by the B.E.D.

>diet. In fact, I think it explains v. well why some supplements that

>I take don't work, and so on.

>

>Im very interested to know why noone else on this list gives a hoot about it.

For my own part, I got turned off because they were selling

" starter cultures " for both fermented vegies and kefir. It's

one of those things that just irks me, maybe not

rationally. But I have a lot more respect for someone like

Sandor Kraut, who sells a book about fermenting and

doesn't try to tell you that you need a " starter " to do it.

-- Heidi

January 10, 2004

--- In , Allan Balliett <igg@i...>

wrote:

>

> Im very interested to know why noone else on this list gives

> a hoot about it.

Out of desperation, and against my better judgement, I

followed the B.E.D. diet for about nine months. Every

thing sound about the B.E.D. is taken from other people,

such as using kefir, and restricting carbohydrates and

gluten. So the authors deserve no credit for that, and

most of what is unique to them is unsound. Two examples

of their lack of scientific rigor are the fact that they

espouse traditional Chinese medicine, and that they

recommend eating a certain proportion of non-starchy

vegetables to starches and proteins, without specifying

whether that's by weight or by volume. They also claimed

that the powdered kefir starter that they sell would

eventually produce kefir grains if each batch was carefully

strained and the contents of the strainer incorporated

into the next batch. I tried this for months and of course

it never worked, and never can work. So they are either

outright liars, or they don't really follow the diet

themselves as they claim. I was miserable on this diet

and lost a lot of weight. I'm 5'9'' and was down to 118

pounds. I saw no improvement until I discovered the

Hellers' books on carboydrates and the diet, which I think

many who know only Atkins ought to read. Atkins is only

half the picture, although I really think that people

should be familiar with both. I've also read Sears and

think he can be ignored altogether.

January 10, 2004

, after an amazon search I assume you're talking about and

Heller. Hadn't heard of them. Why do you think their writing is complementary

to

Atkins?

Daphne

I'm 5'9'' and was down to 118

> pounds. I saw no improvement until I discovered the

> Hellers' books on carboydrates and the diet, which I think

> many who know only Atkins ought to read. Atkins is only

> half the picture, although I really think that people

> should be familiar with both. I've also read Sears and

> think he can be ignored altogether.

>

January 11, 2004

>

> , after an amazon search I assume you're talking about

> and Heller.

Yes, that's right. Sorry, I should have provided more detail.

> Hadn't heard of them. Why do you think their writing is

> complementary to Atkins?

Because they address more than just excessive carbohydrate

consumption in the cause and correction of insulin resistance.

They address several factors, including artificial sweeteners,

smoking, alcohol, caffeine, stress, exercise, gum-chewing,

vitamin supplements, etc. which effect hormone modulation.

In fact, much of what I've read on this list about the Warrior

Diet could have been lifted from the Hellers, such as eating

carbohydrates at only one meal a day, preferably the last meal

of the day, to deplete glycogen stores. Some people can reduce

the number of grams of carbohydrate they eat each day to a

ridiculously low level, but nevertheless hit a weight-loss

plateau, by among other things, for example, dividing those

grams evenly between six small meals or snacks a day, or by

drinking carbohydrate-free beverages every hour on the hour.

Conversely, many people find no need to count grams at all,

but have good results by merely restricting carbohydrates to

one balanced meal a day at the end of the day, as recommended

by the Hellers. Doesn't that remind you a lot of the glowing

reports about the Warrior Diet that we read here every day?

January 11, 2004

-

So does (did) Atkins. He wasn't entirely right about artificial

sweeteners, but he hit every other checkpoint in your list and others

besides. That's not to suggest he was the be-all and end-all -- far from

it, and unfortunately toward the end he sold out in creating his branded

lines of fake foods -- but you're not giving him enough credit either.

>Because they address more than just excessive carbohydrate

>consumption in the cause and correction of insulin resistance.

>They address several factors, including artificial sweeteners,

>smoking, alcohol, caffeine, stress, exercise, gum-chewing,

>vitamin supplements, etc. which effect hormone modulation

-

January 11, 2004

Thanks, . This is the sort of detailed response that I was looking for.

What was it about the diet that made you miserable? I don't quite understand.

And what was it about Heller's that worked so well for you?

I want to add that Donna Gates was trained by Lima Osawa, the wife of

the founder of macrobiotics. That's where the asian medicine elements

come in, I imagine. In macrobiotics they have always felt free to

tell you to eat proportionally, also. WHen I asked my counselor

'weight or volume,' he looked at me like I was a madman 'volume, of

course,' he shouted tersely. Why this is obvious to macros, I don't

know

Thanks so much for writing this. -Allan

>--- In , Allan Balliett <igg@i...>

>wrote:

>>

>> Im very interested to know why noone else on this list gives

>> a hoot about it.

>

>Out of desperation, and against my better judgement, I

>followed the B.E.D. diet for about nine months. Every

>thing sound about the B.E.D. is taken from other people,

>such as using kefir, and restricting carbohydrates and

>gluten. So the authors deserve no credit for that, and

>most of what is unique to them is unsound. Two examples

>of their lack of scientific rigor are the fact that they

>espouse traditional Chinese medicine, and that they

>recommend eating a certain proportion of non-starchy

>vegetables to starches and proteins, without specifying

>whether that's by weight or by volume. They also claimed

>that the powdered kefir starter that they sell would

>eventually produce kefir grains if each batch was carefully

>strained and the contents of the strainer incorporated

>into the next batch. I tried this for months and of course

>it never worked, and never can work. So they are either

>outright liars, or they don't really follow the diet

>themselves as they claim. I was miserable on this diet

>and lost a lot of weight. I'm 5'9'' and was down to 118

>pounds. I saw no improvement until I discovered the

>Hellers' books on carboydrates and the diet, which I think

>many who know only Atkins ought to read. Atkins is only

>half the picture, although I really think that people

>should be familiar with both. I've also read Sears and

>think he can be ignored altogether.

>

January 11, 2004

>but you're not giving him enough credit either.

Well, , please give credit where credit is due. What more do you

have to say about Atkins? -Allan

January 11, 2004

>For my own part, I got turned off because they were selling

> " starter cultures " for both fermented vegies and kefir. It's

>one of those things that just irks me, maybe not

>rationally. But I have a lot more respect for someone like

>Sandor Kraut, who sells a book about fermenting and

>doesn't try to tell you that you need a " starter " to do it.

Heidi - I know, I was torqued, also. Even more so by the prices!!!

But, in her defence, the B.E.D. starter for both Kefir and vegetables

discuss and promote grafting new batches from starter started batches.

As a professional organic farmer, I used to laugh at packaged compost

starters, then, after reading about how effective the best of

bacteria are in creating compost, I bought a professional culture to

start a pile with. Holy Smoley!! There is no comparison!! Sure, I

could always get compost from 'nothing.' But my compost didn't

necessarily have all the microlife in it I needed for best composting

or for inoculating the soils the best.

I think of the kefir starter as I would sour dough starter. Sure, you

can make it from scratch, but, there's starter and their's STARTER.

I've made kefir from the B.E.D. starter, and it has been wonderful,

just wonderful.

Thanks for your input! -Allan

January 11, 2004

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> -

>

> So does (did) Atkins. He wasn't entirely right about artificial

> sweeteners, but he hit every other checkpoint in your list and

> others besides.

The Hellers don't forbid artificial sweeteners. That was

not my point. It's a bit more complicated than that.

> That's not to suggest he was the be-all and end-all -- far from

> it, and unfortunately toward the end he sold out in creating his

> branded lines of fake foods -- but you're not giving him enough

> credit either.

I'm not sure why you think I'm not giving him enough credit.

I always recommend reading -both- Atkins -and- the Hellers,

not the Hellers to the exclusion of Atkins. I haven't read

everything by Atkins, or everything by the Hellers either,

but I've never read where Atkins stressed the importance of

how many -times- in a day one eats carbohydrates, only the

total -amount- in a day. One could eat 40 grams or less of

carbohydrate a day, for example, and still might have insulin

problems if dividing it between 6 or more meals. Did Atkins

ever touch on particulars like that? He also gave a nod to

the Hellers approach, but only as a good way to get away with

binging, which makes me wonder if he properly understood it.

January 11, 2004

>As a professional organic farmer, I used to laugh at packaged compost

>starters, then, after reading about how effective the best of

>bacteria are in creating compost, I bought a professional culture to

>start a pile with. Holy Smoley!! There is no comparison!! Sure, I

>could always get compost from 'nothing.' But my compost didn't

>necessarily have all the microlife in it I needed for best composting

>or for inoculating the soils the best.

Well, that is a point. It's also easier for folk who don't know what they

are doing. I've been tempted by the " Effective Microorganisms " garbage

control system.

Our compost takes forever unless I feed it to the worms. But, I have a big

yard ... let it take forever ...

>I think of the kefir starter as I would sour dough starter. Sure, you

>can make it from scratch, but, there's starter and their's STARTER.

Yeah, but kefir comes in GRAINS. And the grains last indefinitely unless

you kill them. Well, a lot of people end up killing them, so maybe

the starter is easier for them. But, if I were selling starter, I'd

at least tell folks they COULD get grains. Or sell the grains, like GEM does.

>I've made kefir from the B.E.D. starter, and it has been wonderful,

>just wonderful.

And there is always something to be said for ease of use!

>Thanks for your input! -Allan

You are welcome.

-- Heidi

January 11, 2004

--- In , Allan Balliett <igg@i...>

wrote:

>

> What was it about the diet that made you miserable? I don't quite

> understand.

I was constantly bloated, felt stuffed, and yet was always

hungry. It didn't allow any dairy foods except kefir, and

dairy is my staple food. It didn't allow any sugar at all,

including honey or fruit, which is a misery in itself. Of

course followers of the diet will claim cleansing reactions,

healing crisis, or that one did not follow the diet to the

letter, etc., but they would continue to do so no matter how

many years the diet yielded no results. That's the typical

m.o. in the food cults. If one feels no better, or feels

worse on a diet after nine months they should abandon it,

and not let themselves be swayed by the ideologues. I began

to feel significantly better after only one week on a low-

carbohydrate diet. In the years since I dropped the B.E.D.

and went on a low-carbohydrate diet of my own design, I've

gained almost thirty pounds, something that I was never able

to do before in my life. I also got rid of panic attacks,

and low blood sugar crashes that I used to have most of my

life. In fact much of the B.E.D. coincides with what I think

is a good diet, such as eating fermented foods, especially

kefir, not being afraid of fats or meat, eating seaweed, and

limiting carbohydrate, especially sugar. However there are

impositions above and beyond what can be logically proven

necessary, and most everything sound about the diet was

articulated earlier and better by others, so why give these

two authors credit for putting all these elements together,

along with a lot of flim-flam as well? You can do a much

better job of that yourself, and then call it the " Allan

Balliett Diet " ! :-)

> And what was it about Heller's that worked so well for you?

They don't impose all sorts of pseudoscientific nonsense like

acid-alkaline balancing, food combining, etc. that the B.E.D.

does, and which made it difficult to get enough good solid

food, like cheese. It wasn't just the Hellers alone that I

discovered. It was at the same time that I became aware of

the whole carbohydrate and insulin resistance matter. It's

just that after reading several books about it, I find the

best and most complete information to be found in combining

the Hellers and Atkins.

> I want to add that Donna Gates was trained by Lima Osawa,

> the wife of the founder of macrobiotics. That's where the

> asian medicine elements come in, I imagine.

Yes, she clearly has a history in the food cults, and that

tends to make me all the more suspicious, as well as the

kefir fraud that I mentioned.

> In macrobiotics they have always felt free to tell you to eat

> proportionally, also. WHen I asked my counselor 'weight or

> volume,' he looked at me like I was a madman 'volume, of course,'

> he shouted tersely. Why this is obvious to macros, I don't know

You see that's part of the problem. Different vegetables

result in different volumes, and depending whether they are

cooked or not, and how, regardless of the actual amount of

net nutrient, so clearly the principle doesn't really involve

any consistency.

> Thanks so much for writing this.

You're welcome!

January 11, 2004

>

>> Thanks so much for writing this.

>

>You're welcome!

>

Thanks again, , for all of the good information.

I guess one of the things that is a real stand out to me is how

B.E.D. addresses the inner flora. Other diets I've seen tip their hat

at it, but after I found out a few years ago that ALL traditional

cultures eat foods to nourish their inner diversity as well as

themselves (American Indians and inulin of sunchokes)

I've had a real desire to learn how to take care of, my other half.

I, too, have a sense about the protein and the carbs similar to your

own, but what are you doinw for your inner being(s)?

-Allan

January 11, 2004

--- In , Allan Balliett <igg@i...>

wrote:

>

> I guess one of the things that is a real stand out to me is

> how B.E.D. addresses the inner flora. Other diets I've seen

> tip their hat at it, but after I found out a few years ago

> that ALL traditional cultures eat foods to nourish their inner

> diversity as well as themselves (American Indians and inulin

> of sunchokes) I've had a real desire to learn how to take care

> of, my other half.

Well that's exactly what got me interested in the B.E.D. too.

My mother took up an interest in health and diet not long

after I was born, and so early on I also took an interest in

it. My own studies, including of anthropology, had convinced

me of the importance of our " body ecology " . A few years ago

I came down with what I didn't realize at the time to be a

hiatal hernia, and decided that I had candida. After having

no success with various treatments for candida, I decided to

commit to the B.E.D. despite my misgivings about its pseudo-

scientific elements.

> I, too, have a sense about the protein and the carbs similar to

> your own, but what are you doinw for your inner being(s)?

Not much more than drinking kefir almost everyday, it's my

favorite food, and I make my own unsalted sauerkraut. I

actually joined this group, as well as some others, to find

out more about fermented foods, but so far nobody online seems

to really know any more about them than I do. I ordered Katz's

book too, and was likewise disappointed. There was little in

his book that I hadn't already read about elsewhere. I'm also

interested in fermented cereal products, which Nourishing

Traditions touches upon. Anyway, long story short, I've come

to the conclusion with my own experiences that limiting

carbohydrate intake alone is the most important factor in

eliminating dysbiosis.

January 11, 2004

Interesting. My husband wants to do Atkins without giving up all the yummies.

If

not for my influence he'd be eating low carb ice cream (sucralose), low carb mac

and

cheese (soy) and so forth, daily. (A totally common phenomenon promoted by the

Atkins center web site.)

I'd much rather have him eating a natural foods diet that contains some carbs,

albeit

much lower in carbs than 'normal'.

Which book(s) by the Hellers do you consider most essential for someone on a

budget?

Daphne

>

> Because they address more than just excessive carbohydrate

> consumption in the cause and correction of insulin resistance.

> They address several factors, including artificial sweeteners,

> smoking, alcohol, caffeine, stress, exercise, gum-chewing,

> vitamin supplements, etc. which effect hormone modulation.

> In fact, much of what I've read on this list about the Warrior

> Diet could have been lifted from the Hellers, such as eating

> carbohydrates at only one meal a day, preferably the last meal

> of the day, to deplete glycogen stores. Some people can reduce

> the number of grams of carbohydrate they eat each day to a

> ridiculously low level, but nevertheless hit a weight-loss

> plateau, by among other things, for example, dividing those

> grams evenly between six small meals or snacks a day, or by

> drinking carbohydrate-free beverages every hour on the hour.

> Conversely, many people find no need to count grams at all,

> but have good results by merely restricting carbohydrates to

> one balanced meal a day at the end of the day, as recommended

> by the Hellers. Doesn't that remind you a lot of the glowing

> reports about the Warrior Diet that we read here every day?

>

January 11, 2004

Allan-

>What more do you

>have to say about Atkins?

The same things many people have said here about Atkins. Though he never

(to my recollection) discussed the timing of carb consumption a la the

Warrior Diet or perhaps the Hellers, he certainly warned of the dangers of

a wide variety of medications, of caffeine, and he stressed the importance

of nutritional supplements and of nutrition, though not, obviously, in the

same way or to the same degree that NT does. He wrote a whole book called

_Dr. Atkins' Vita-Nutrient Solution : Nature's Answer to Drugs_, and it's a

worthwhile book too. He wasn't some single-factor obsessive ranting only

about carbs carbs carbs to the exclusion of any subtlety or anything

else. Perhaps the Hellers do complement him (I'm interested to see what

they have to say) but Atkins covered at least some of what was

talking about.

-

January 11, 2004

-

>The Hellers don't forbid artificial sweeteners.

Neither did Atkins. He warned against aspartame, though, and he

(initially) warned against the sugar alcohols.

>but I've never read where Atkins stressed the importance of

>how many -times- in a day one eats carbohydrates, only the

>total -amount- in a day.

He did stress the importance of the glycemic index and load of individual

meals, but you're right, he didn't advocate a Warrior Diet-style

distribution of carb consumption. If my backquoting suggested that he did,

you have my apologies. I merely meant to say that he discussed the other

things in your list. But the Hellers do look interesting, so I'll pick up

one of their books and give it a look.

-

January 11, 2004

In the latest edition of his " New Diet Revolution " book Atkins emphasized

whole foods more than in any other edition, which surprised me a bit

considering his line of processed foods.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----