Re: Nutrition 101/the sustainability of our culture at large

January 8, 2004

> Dunno if we will last that long in our current state lol.

>

> I don't think man was meant for industrialization, working 9-5 with

mass

> pressures ect.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

That idea is so BIG it reminds me of the lore I hear of giant rodents

bigger than cows in past times. Or even just moose, because around

here we don't have any animals that big.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

p.s. notice I trimmed the rest of the irrelevant stuff in the post

I'm replying to...

January 8, 2004

>> I don't think man was meant for industrialization, working 9-5 with

>mass

>> pressures ect.

>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

>That idea is so BIG it reminds me of the lore I hear of giant rodents

>bigger than cows in past times. Or even just moose, because around

>here we don't have any animals that big.

>

>Mike

Heh heh, I like that Mike.

I've been thinking lately that humankind is basically

becoming " factory farmed " ... i.e. the same principles

that are used to factory farm cows and chickens and pigs

are being used on people.

1. We are in these little houses,

row upon row (or better, in Tokyo, with the minimum amount

of space possible for one human.

2. We never see the sun.

3. We are kept going on treadmills most of the day so we

don't get bored, doing meaningless work that doesn't really

need to be done, to keep the " GNP up " .

4. We are learning to survive on soy and other cheap

products rather than our natural diet.

Kind of reminds me of the Matrix, except instead of

providing " energy " for the computer-beings we are

running the great GNP machine. Anyone who does

not work is considered useless and a drag on society,

esp. as that means they are also not *consuming*. And

the rules are, the GNP wheel must run faster and faster

or we are all deemed a " failure " .

This is soooo different from how humans started ...

using what was available in nature, producing very

little in the way of anything (and most of what was

produced was ephemeral and wore out quickly), living

very sparsely in small tribal units, spending most of

the day sitting around telling stories or practicing

spear-throwing ...

-- Heidi

January 8, 2004

----- Original Message -----

From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer " <heidis@...>

> 3. We are kept going on treadmills most of the day so we

> don't get bored, doing meaningless work that doesn't really

> need to be done, to keep the " GNP up " .

First, GDP has largely replaced GNP as the primary measure of an

economy's production. Second, it's not true either way. I go to work to

make money, so that I can afford to buy good food and a nice house and

to support a welfare case or two (not to mention all that stuff down

below). I know other people who want expensive cars, or piano lessons

for their children, or to retire and go travelling, or to buy nice

clothes, or any of a number of other things. I have never heard of a

single person who went to work specifically for the purpose of keeping

up the GNP or GDP. Most people don't go to work to avoid boredom,

either. I can think of any number of things I'd rather do if they paid

the same as my job. You're correct in stating that most work doesn't

technically *need* to be done, but what does? If someone's paying for it

voluntarily, then it can't be entirely meaningless to everyone,

regardless of what your--or my--largely uninformed opinion may be.

> This is soooo different from how humans started ...

> using what was available in nature, producing very

> little in the way of anything (and most of what was

> produced was ephemeral and wore out quickly), living

> very sparsely in small tribal units, spending most of

> the day sitting around telling stories or practicing

> spear-throwing ...

That life is still available to anyone who wants to live it. Very few

make that choice. Are you sure you're not just romanticizing it?

Personally, I like hot water, air conditioning, classical music, the

Internet, books, cartoons, not getting gored by a wild boar, video

games, cheap travel, and the best medical care that modern science has

to offer (scoff if you like, but they're good at patching up holes),

should I ever need it. I doubt very much that I would be able to have

many of these things without the economies of scale which most of us

have come to know and love.

January 9, 2004

,

Harsh but true!

Kathy

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Heidi Schuppenhauer " <heidis@t...>

>

> > 3. We are kept going on treadmills most of the day so we

> > don't get bored, doing meaningless work that doesn't really

> > need to be done, to keep the " GNP up " .

>

> First, GDP has largely replaced GNP as the primary measure of an

> economy's production. Second, it's not true either way. I go to work to

> make money, so that I can afford to buy good food and a nice house and

> to support a welfare case or two (not to mention all that stuff down

> below). I know other people who want expensive cars, or piano lessons

> for their children, or to retire and go travelling, or to buy nice

> clothes, or any of a number of other things. I have never heard of a

> single person who went to work specifically for the purpose of keeping

> up the GNP or GDP. Most people don't go to work to avoid boredom,

> either. I can think of any number of things I'd rather do if they paid

> the same as my job. You're correct in stating that most work doesn't

> technically *need* to be done, but what does? If someone's paying for it

> voluntarily, then it can't be entirely meaningless to everyone,

> regardless of what your--or my--largely uninformed opinion may be.

>

> > This is soooo different from how humans started ...

> > using what was available in nature, producing very

> > little in the way of anything (and most of what was

> > produced was ephemeral and wore out quickly), living

> > very sparsely in small tribal units, spending most of

> > the day sitting around telling stories or practicing

> > spear-throwing ...

>

> That life is still available to anyone who wants to live it. Very few

> make that choice. Are you sure you're not just romanticizing it?

> Personally, I like hot water, air conditioning, classical music, the

> Internet, books, cartoons, not getting gored by a wild boar, video

> games, cheap travel, and the best medical care that modern science has

> to offer (scoff if you like, but they're good at patching up holes),

> should I ever need it. I doubt very much that I would be able to have

> many of these things without the economies of scale which most of us

> have come to know and love.

January 9, 2004

man, heidi.

again this is where i could have written that exact post you just wrote!!

so now it's time to ask (though i'm sure you guys have already done this)

how many of us are farmers? and how many are farmers-by-choice, instead of

farmers-by-upbringing? npr just did a story on this, i think they called it

" lifestyle entrepenuers " ...

we moved here (central vermont) from boston 4 years ago and bought a farm,

austensibly so we could ride horses and get the heck outta the rat race. we

promptly named it the Swift Horse Farm and were happy as clams. then we

learned about organics and everything else....and we still don't have any

horses, but our CSA starts this spring with fresh meats, eggs, herbs, and

some dairy here and there (though we're *not* going to be dairy farmers -

man, that's tough work!), and in another couple years we'll add veggies

>Heh heh, I like that Mike.

>

>I've been thinking lately that humankind is basically

>becoming " factory farmed " ... i.e. the same principles

>that are used to factory farm cows and chickens and pigs

>are being used on people.

>

>1. We are in these little houses,

>row upon row (or better, in Tokyo, with the minimum amount

>of space possible for one human.

>

>2. We never see the sun.

>

>3. We are kept going on treadmills most of the day so we

>don't get bored, doing meaningless work that doesn't really

>need to be done, to keep the " GNP up " .

>

>4. We are learning to survive on soy and other cheap

>products rather than our natural diet.

>

>Kind of reminds me of the Matrix, except instead of

>providing " energy " for the computer-beings we are

>running the great GNP machine. Anyone who does

>not work is considered useless and a drag on society,

>esp. as that means they are also not *consuming*. And

>the rules are, the GNP wheel must run faster and faster

>or we are all deemed a " failure " .

>

>This is soooo different from how humans started ...

>using what was available in nature, producing very

>little in the way of anything (and most of what was

>produced was ephemeral and wore out quickly), living

>very sparsely in small tribal units, spending most of

>the day sitting around telling stories or practicing

>spear-throwing ...

>

>-- Heidi

>

January 9, 2004

At 01:34 AM 1/9/2004, you wrote:

>That life is still available to anyone who wants to live it. Very few

>make that choice. Are you sure you're not just romanticizing it?

>Personally, I like hot water, air conditioning, classical music, the

>Internet, books, cartoons, not getting gored by a wild boar, video

>games, cheap travel, and the best medical care that modern science has

>to offer (scoff if you like, but they're good at patching up holes),

>should I ever need it. I doubt very much that I would be able to have

>many of these things without the economies of scale which most of us

>have come to know and love.

well, i agree there is a certain amount of romance.

and i have to say, that although i avoid allopathic medicine unless it's

absolutely necessary, we also chose the area we live in because there's a

hospital here. (which isn't true in all places of vermont) and i use amazon

and i buy organic things online and whatever. i'm pretty grateful that if

all the electricity stopped flowing we could still survive and i'm grateful

that although i enjoy access to the internet and driving to burlington for

art classes, we could survive just from this farm and even be pretty happy.

i guess the point is though, at least for me, that i wish there was more

balance somewhere. the lack of balance between lifestyles is so

discouraging and depressing as to make it seem...

i mean, there are people who don't know where milk comes from! tourists

here take pictures of Real Live Cows cause ...ya know...they've never seen

one. and the sacrafices that we make to provide good food are not respected

by the larger part of society. sometimes even my life doesn't seem rural

and detached enough.

atg technical support

support@...

1-800-RING ATG

January 9, 2004

>First, GDP has largely replaced GNP as the primary measure of an

>economy's production. Second, it's not true either way. I go to work to

>make money, so that I can afford to buy good food and a nice house and

>to support a welfare case or two (not to mention all that stuff down

>below).

Sure, that is your motivation. And I'm motivated to pay the rent.

But in the larger scale of thing, my " role " is to keep the

economy moving. Politically, THAT role gets a lot more attention

than my role as cook and mother, which probably have a bigger

impact on society but are not " paid " and therefore are not part of the

GDP, GNP, or any other measurement that makes the stock

market finicky.

" My " motivation has little to do with the health of the economy.

I suspect that the cells of my body are NOT motivated by any

sense of common good ... each one tries to maximize it's own

little cell life. Ditto, the ants in a colony are no doubt just

doing what works for that individual, to the extent you can

say an ant " thinks " .

If someone's paying for it

>voluntarily, then it can't be entirely meaningless to everyone,

>regardless of what your--or my--largely uninformed opinion may be.

Well, we are still largely " group " creatures and we

go where the group goes. It's difficult to say what

the motivation is of one goat in a herd ... it WILL go

where the herd goes.

My point was mainly that our lives have little

to do with a " meaningful " life as it existed prior

to 200 years ago. In Paleo times, and in tribal

life today, " meaningful " meant the health of the

family or tribe. And I'm saying that at some level,

we are designed more for THAT kind of life,

just like we are designed more for a Paleo

diet than we are to live off Corn Pops. If in fact

we have a inbuilt need for a certain kind of food and

life, " my " opinion isn't the rulestick ... we could,

in theory, scientifically figure out what kind of

life a human is programmed for, and a human

living that kind of life would likely feel more

" fulfilled " .

Of course, given the current environment, yeah,

most humans will choose to live as the

group lives, and they will choose to survive

on Corn Pops also.