Help me with this/insulin

January 15, 2004

Here's my opinion:

Insulin is only stimulated by a few amino acids, and amino acids can also be

incorporated into cells via IGF-1, but I'm not sure if the few amino acids

that cause insulin secretion *need* the insulin.

Anyway,

The idea that the protein would be stored as fat is utterly non-sensical.

That seems to assume that in order to lose weight you need to not utilize any of

your protein, which is absurd.

That said, insulin does NOT need carbs to prevent weight loss, and the

primary mechanism by which insulin keeps people fat *isn't* by turning carbs

into

fat. Insulin inhibits lypolysis; it doesn't matter why it's secreted.

However, according to Barry Sears, and I haven't found verification of this,

but he says that protein stimulates glucagon, which stimulates lypolysis.

So, the insulin from an artificial sweetener will help keep you fat

regardless of what you eat, but the protein will probably help counteract its

effects

by stimulating glucagon.

Chris

January 15, 2004

I'm involved in a discussion with someone on an Atkins list about insulin, and I

may have gotten myself in trouble.

We started out discussing sweets and how the taste of something sweet *can*

trigger an insulin release, even if it's stevia or an artificial sweetener that

have no calories or carbs. I suggested that if someone does have something

sweet, it's probably best to have it with a bit of protein, jokingly suggesting

we give the insulin " something to do. "

Her response was that this is TERRIBLE advice, because if insulin is released in

the presence of fat or protein it will be stored as fat. She said this is the

last thing we want.

I pointed out that insulin is necessary to life, and so is protein consumption,

and that she was demonizing insulin. I said that when we eat protein we had damn

well better hope for an insulin release, because without one it will literally

be the " last thing we want, " as we'll soon be dead. But then I said - and I

freely admit I said it without having one iota of evidence to support it other

than having heard it here on this list - that there is nothing wrong with any

amount of insulin being released as long as the person is not insulin resistant.

Now that I said it, I'm kicking myself, because I can't defend it. If I am wrong

I'll eat my words, but I sure do hate being wrong. <G>

Am I wrong?

Christie

January 15, 2004

Christie-

>that there is nothing wrong with any amount of insulin being released as

>long as the person is not insulin resistant.

That is, I'm afraid, wrong. Insulin resistance comes from chronic

overproduction of insulin, so you don't want to release any old amount of

insulin. That said, insulin shouldn't be demonized either, and making sure

to have some protein is a pretty good thing. Protein is difficult and

inefficient to store as fat; it can much more easily be burned for

energy. The refined-carb+fat combo is the worst, because then the insulin

surge _will_ store the fat as fat, though the fat might slightly ameliorate

the metabolism-damaging effects of the refined carbs. Not that it'd help

you meaningfully over time, though.

-

January 15, 2004

>> Insulin resistance comes from chronic

overproduction of insulin, so you don't want to release any old amount of

insulin. <<

Yes, chronic overproduction, but why would a single release of insulin be

damaging to someone who is NOT insulin resistant? We are talking about people on

Atkins, doing low carb all the time - so in context, I really find it hard to

believe that this really matters....

Thanks!

Christie

January 15, 2004

Christie-

>Yes, chronic overproduction, but why would a single release of insulin be

>damaging to someone who is NOT insulin resistant? We are talking about

>people on Atkins, doing low carb all the time - so in context, I really

>find it hard to believe that this really matters....

Well, I'm not sure what you mean, then. Are they low-carbing because they

want to lose weight? If so, they're already insulin resistant. Are you

talking about an isolated indulgence in carbs? If so, no, it's not the end

of the world, but the effects of that indulgence will likely spread beyond

that initial insulin surge. If I break down and eat something bad, I find

it can take a few days for my blood sugar and insulin metabolism to get all

the way back to the comfort zone I enjoy from eating lots of fat and not

much in the way of carbs. During that time there's temptation to deal

with, and there's also the fact that my blood sugar keeps fluctuating and

responding too much to foods and delays in eating.

-

January 15, 2004

>> Well, I'm not sure what you mean, then. <<

I'm not surprised, it's part of my " I hate to be wrong " problem. It's one of the

reasons I try to never, ever make statements I can't back up. I'd rather eat

transfats than my words, LOL. So I apologize, because I was not clear at all.

What I REALLY meant, is that if someone is NOT insulin resistant, is there

something harmful about a release of insulin, even a large one? It has been

asserted on this list, not sure by who, that in the absence of insulin

resistance, insulin does no harm. I can see that if it's true that excess

insulin production triggers or exacerbates or causes insulin resistance, then a

chronic pattern of this would be harmful. But in and of itself, is it harmful?

In, say, the way a huge release of cortisol can be harmful, even if it's not

chronic?

Christie

January 15, 2004

Christie-

>What I REALLY meant, is that if someone is NOT insulin resistant, is there

>something harmful about a release of insulin, even a large one? It has

>been asserted on this list, not sure by who, that in the absence of

>insulin resistance, insulin does no harm. I can see that if it's true that

>excess insulin production triggers or exacerbates or causes insulin

>resistance, then a chronic pattern of this would be harmful. But in and of

>itself, is it harmful? In, say, the way a huge release of cortisol can be

>harmful, even if it's not chronic?

OK, I think I see what you mean, but there are a couple reasons the debate

you're in might need to be rephrased slightly. People release enormous

amounts of insulin in large part because they _are_ insulin resistant and

the body is trying to compensate by producing more of it. So two people,

one insulin resistant and one healthy, will not release the same amount of

insulin in response to identical carb stimuli. Also, the marginal damage

done by each initial carb overdose (for lack of a better term) will be

greater for the insulin resistant person than for the healthy person, but

that doesn't mean the healthy person will be unharmed by eating a bunch of

refined carbs either. It's not like there's an instant transition between

perfect health and visible decline -- lots of things are changing under the

hood before overt symptoms begin to be noticeable. Since the science on

the subject is dramatically incomplete, though, it's not possible to say

how bad one dose will be for different people, particularly for healthy

ones. That said, I suspect even most seemingly healthy people are far from

real health. We're just judging them by an impaired standard, and we also

can't see what's going on inside.

Now, as to whether any release of insulin is harmful, of course

not! Insulin is necessary for life! It's just overproduction that's a

problem, particularly when it's given inappropriate raw materials to work with.

-

January 15, 2004

Greetings from a newbie. About a month ago I joined the " native

nutrition " group and, since then, have been reading as many entries

as I can.

The question about insulin release, plus the responses from

Idol and Masterjohn, are some that I have managed to find time

to read. Till now, I haven't posted anything.

About insulin, and insulin release. If a person who is not already

insulin-resistant, a really large amount of insulin could cause

problems. Movies and episodes on television have used the idea that

injecting insulin into someone can kill them. So if it's a big

enough release; yes, could be a big problem. Death, or coma. The

movie which was based on real life, " Reversal of Fortune, " was (as I

recall) based on the concept -- put forward by the defense -- that

Sunny Von Bulow injected herself with insulin in order to stay thin

(or lose weight), and accidentally overdid it.

However, the release of insulin in a healthy person, in response to

food, should not be a problem.

There are at least a couple of enzymes which break down insulin. One

of them is known by several names: insulinase, insulin-degrading

enzyme, insulin protease. The other has a hyphenated two-part name.

The current idea is that insulin can be stored for " days. "

Admittedly, this is counter-intuitive to the idea of someone with

Type I diabetes injecting insulin several times a day; but we're

talking about healthy people.

So a healthy person's body, depending on the dose or " load " of

insulin release, can break it down and/or store it.

Is this any help?

-- P.F. Jennings

January 16, 2004

Christie,

Is she saying carbs should be eaten alone? Fat releases no insulin. Protein

to a lesser degree than carbohydrates. Reducing the release of insulin and

GI of any given carbohydrate (hopefully not refined) can be done by

combining the carb with fat. Fat makes glycogen energy bypassing the liver

where glucose goes to either produce glucose energy or excess stored as fat.

The Old Order Amish article posted here seems to be a good example of this.

Their desserts, breads and carbohydrates are all served with plenty of cream

or butter. Every omnivore should be insulin resistant in fall just like

omnivores in nature and everyone's ancestors. Its eating like summer in

winter that keeps people insulin resistant year round.

> Her response was that this is TERRIBLE advice, because if insulin is

released in the presence of fat or protein it will be stored as fat. She

said this is the last thing we want.

>

> I pointed out that insulin is necessary to life, and so is protein

consumption, and that she was demonizing insulin. I said that when we eat

protein we had damn well better hope for an insulin release, because without

one it will literally be the " last thing we want, " as we'll soon be dead.

But then I said - and I freely admit I said it without having one iota of

evidence to support it other than having heard it here on this list - that

there is nothing wrong with any amount of insulin being released as long as

the person is not insulin resistant.

>

> Now that I said it, I'm kicking myself, because I can't defend it. If I am

wrong I'll eat my words, but I sure do hate being wrong. <G>

>

> Am I wrong?

Wanita

January 16, 2004

According to my understanding insulin resistance is caused by a steady flow

of excess insulin. Which, in turn, is caused by eating too many carbs of any

kind, but especially processed carbs. After a time the cells throw up their

hands and cry, " Enough! Enough! We can't take anymore! " And they become

insulin resistant. But there is still glucose in the blood from all the

carbs and the pancreas keeps putting out insulin to try to get rid of it.

Eventually the pancreas just burns out trying to maintain the insulin flow

to lower the blood glucose levels.

That is very simplistic, but it's how I see it.

In a healthy non-insulin-resistant person the occasional burst of insulin

from candy or processed carbs should not be harmful. It's only when huge

quantities of such are eaten over a long period of time.

Judith Alta

Re: Help me with this/insulin