Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 One more thing that i forgot to say. Usually when someone shows up with a " problem " , no matter how anonymous they may be, there is a reason that thier path crosses with someone who can relate. We may not see that reason right away, but somewhere, just around the corner from casual coincidence, it is there. The most profound of exchanges may very well those ones where both parties end up being better off...... Yours, Rob.....who begins again, again and again! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 In message , Give Freely writes Hi Rob - et al. Sorry to take so long to reply, but I've been spouting a lot recently and using up my 2 posts (anyone whose fed-up with me talking to myself, brush off those chocolate hangovers and join in, LOL!) >The most profound of exchanges may very well those ones where >both parties end up being better off...... I think I know what you're getting at here, but will spare the list 20 pages of lecture notes (and, before all the teachers write in with advice on " how to summarise " - that *is* the summary!) In other words, it's a big topic and I have elected not to risk lawsuits from people with crashed computers (hmm. Could I sue my professors for crashing my brain, I ask myself?!!!!) Seeker Girl wrote: In hearing the darkest of someone elses experience, we can feel better for ourselves because maybe they had it much worse than we did and it makes our problem a little less or they show you a way you didn't see before. In giving advice to those that ask for it, the only good answer to give is one of your own experience. Should one speak about that which they don't know? It's when people with no experience offer advice that gets people confused. and I reply: I didn't intend to suggest that we should spout on about things without knowing what we're talking about. If that's all we do, then we might just as well send intelligent people off to read the textbooks, and advise the more academically challenged to buy a load of Fortune cookies, LOL! Seriously, though - I do believe that it is neither helpful nor necessary to give the entire litany of our lives in order to help another. Why do you think therapists are trained not to reveal themselves to their patients? Obviously, outside of the therapeutic situation, boundaries are not so strict, but I still believe that we should have worked through things ourselves before attempting to advise others - or our advice, however well meaning, will not be objective. Take 12 step programmes for instance. I haven't personal experience of these, but I know there are people here who have - so do correct me if my assumptions are false - but, when someones goes to a group like AA, they have a 'sponsor', right? Presumably there are criteria to be met before one can become a sponsor, such as having been clean and sober for a period of time (I suspect years rather than months) - and probably other criteria based on stability of general lifestyle, etc? You wouldn't be expected to mentor someone else if you'd only been sober for a week, would you? -- fa http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2000 Report Share Posted April 29, 2000 This is something i know a thing or two about. >Take 12 step programmes for instance. I haven't personal experience of >these, but I know there are people here who have - so do correct me if >my assumptions are false - but, when someones goes to a group like AA, >they have a 'sponsor', right? Presumably there are criteria to be met >before one can become a sponsor, such as having been clean and sober for >a period of time (I suspect years rather than months) - and probably >other criteria based on stability of general lifestyle, etc? You >wouldn't be expected to mentor someone else if you'd only been sober for >a week, would you? > Depending upon which purist stance you choose you decide to take it could be that a person with two days sober is the best person to help out a person with one day sober, and in the other corner are those who would argue that you're not fit to be helping someone until you have it all together. My experience has shown me that both of these positions are correct in the circumstances in which they present themselves, and that was really the point i was trying to make in the first place....I think......If we wait until we have it all together we may as well just jump right onto the pile of dead buddhists...HA! Now if you happened to find yourself sober for a week and someone with one day needed someone to help them out, do you send them away because you don't think you can help. My arguement would be that this is the first opportunity someone may get to be a different person than they were a week ago. Now this isn't going to change someone's life and show them the path to longterm sobriety, but it might get them thru the night, and sometimes that's the best we can do. It's kind of funny how when I think back to 14 years ago, which was the last time I took a mind or mood altering substance, the only story I had to tell at first was how using had gotten me into alot of trouble and now I'm trying to find a better way to live. Today, I think about that person as a half forgotten stranger who really doesn't mean that much to me, while at the same time I find it rather simple to say just enough so that the person I'm talking to knows that i have been there and 99% of my story now has happened in recovery. The most important thing anyone ever offered me in a 12 step fellowship was the promise that they would love me until I learned to love myself. 14 years later, I hope they still love me 'cause I'm still workin' at it. Anyhow, I think I said this before: Sometimes we 'll never know how far along we are with working thru certain issues until we see ourselves helping someone else working thru the same issue. This is very much the same viewpoint as that when we gain new(hopefully better) ways and means we can count on them being tested.....Hey Alice...Could this be why I sometimes feel like i have to go threu everything twice???? Also, although it true that therapists are trained to avoid revealing too much of themselves, I believe that some of the best therapists would tell you to learn all you can freom the books and the training..... then forget it. My experience has shown that the most effective healers are those who are willing to walk the dark path with you. Yours, Rob...who feels he might have said too much..... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 << It's kind of funny how when I think back to 14 years ago, which was the last time I took a mind or mood altering substance, the only story I had to tell at first was how using had gotten me into alot of trouble and now I'm trying to find a better way to live. Today, I think about that person as a half forgotten stranger who really doesn't mean that much to me, while at the same time I find it rather simple to say just enough so that the person I'm talking to knows that i have been there and 99% of my story now has happened in recovery. The most important thing anyone ever offered me in a 12 step fellowship was the promise that they would love me until I learned to love myself. 14 years later, I hope they still love me 'cause I'm still workin' at it. >> Rob, I think you touched on something fundamental here. I have always been too " straight " to venture into mind-altering drugs, but secretly hold out the possibility of doing so. It would probably be a Faustian bargain taken on very late in life for me, as a vehicle to venture more deeply into the UNC when my actions couldn't hurt anyone dear to me. But your witness here interestingly cautions that perhaps the journey after the experience was the most important part. I think one would need a very solid ego to hang onto before venturing into those depths. As one who has visited that netherland can you recommend any aspects of the experience. If you would prefer to respond in private, please feel free to do so. I appreciate your willingness to share this part of your life, undoubtedly a difficult one Rob. Perhaps we can all learn from it. I wonder what Jung would inject into this discussion. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Hey Greg, I think the first thing that I should explain is that I was only 20 when I quit using drugs. There are probably alot of people who feel the same distance from the person they were that long ago, I just have a landmark to gauge the distance by. The other side of this is that not every body who uses chemicals(icluding alcohol) becomes addicted.(no Jo, you don't have to give up the wine) >It would probably be a Faustian bargain taken on >very late in life for me, as a vehicle to venture more deeply into the UNC Probably a bargain best walked away from. There are many safer ways to venture toward the unconscious....meditation...active imagination.. ......prayer.....guided imagery.....rythym.... > As one who has visited that netherland >can you recommend any aspects of the experience. No, most definitely not. It took me years to separate the valuable lessons of life from the drug induced stupors that seemed real at the time. For all of the suffering(both real and imagined) that I put myself and those around me thru, it was hardly worth it. At the same time, I don't find it difficult to talk about at all, it is a part of my experience and in managing to stay clean for this long I have no choice but to view it as one of life's victories. Probably the most valuable bit of knowledge that has been gained from all of this is that every day I am aware of an act of Providence that has happened directly in my life. I can't imagine that anyone could be interested in any kind of psychology without coming across the topic of addiction and it surprises me that it is not talked about more often. Today I have my place in what I call the Otherworld, and although my life is changing at an extremely rapid pace at the moment, I try to spend a few minutes there everyday, if for no other reason than to make sure all the characters are getting along. Hey, ya know, I've never been given a cyber high-5 before...thanx Jo Yours, Rob....who is perfectly willing to discuss this further if it is deemed helpful or shut up about it if it is not....! http://onelist.com/group/Altruism101 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 In message , Give Freely writes >Now if you happened to find yourself sober for a week and someone with one >day needed someone to help them out, do you send them away because you don't >think you can help. No, of course not - but crisis intervention is different from ongoing help, that's all I meant. > My arguement would be that this is the first opportunity >someone may get to be a different person than they were a week ago. Now this >isn't going to change someone's life and show them the path to longterm >sobriety, but it might get them thru the night, Do I spy another Lennon fan? (I go into SERIOUS mourning every 8th December.) >It's kind of funny how when I think back to 14 years ago, which was the last >time I took a mind or mood altering substance, the only story I had to tell >at first was how using had gotten me into alot of trouble and now I'm trying >to find a better way to live. Today, I think about that person as a half >forgotten stranger who really doesn't mean that much to me, while at the >same time I find it rather simple to say just enough Exactly! (Jo high-fives Rob!) One of the most moving stories I ever read about a therapist was a friend of Bolen's. Her annual summer vacation was cut short when both of her parents were killed in a road accident in Israel. The timing was such that it stuffed up her holiday, but didn't prevent her from returning to work on the agreed date. Despite her grief and loss, her major concern on her return to work was what to tell her patients. She felt (Jungian therapy involving such an intense relationship between therapist and patient) that it would be wrong to return as though nothing had happened, but she also knew that it would be wrong to burden her patients with the details. She finally decided to tell them that her holiday had been cut short due to a bereavement, and left it at that. However - what struck me most was the time and care she took about this decision, at what must have been an appalling time for her personally. I guess that's what I aim for. > >The most important thing anyone ever offered me in a 12 step fellowship was >the promise that they would love me until I learned to love myself. >14 years later, I hope they still love me 'cause I'm still workin' at it. When you get there, let me know your secret! (although I hope in my case it doesn't involve giving up wine, LOL!) > >Anyhow, I think I said this before: Sometimes we 'll never know how far >along we are with working thru certain issues until we see ourselves helping >someone else working thru the same issue. Here I am totally in agreement. We don't need to give the person we are helping a blow-by-blow account though. I think it's like Alice's important distinction between AD REM and AD HOMINEM. I can tell you that I hear you without burdening you with all the details of my past. When tempted to share personal stories, I think it's important to ask ourselves *why* we are doing it. There have been times when I've been accused of giving " pat answers " , when in fact what I have said comes very much from my own experience - and I always just let it go - because I feel that to reply with a long litany of exactly what it was that brought me to a certain conclusion would be unnecessary self-justification, and piling a guilt-trip on the person which they almost certainly don't need. >Also, although it true that therapists are trained to avoid revealing too >much of themselves, I believe that some of the best therapists would tell >you to learn all you can freom the books and the training..... >then forget it. My experience has shown that the most effective healers are >those who are willing to walk the dark path with you. Yes - but *your* dark path - not theirs. *That* is why the therapist doesn't reveal themselves - because it is the *patient's* emotions and struggles which are important - not theirs. > >Yours, >Rob...who feels he might have said too much..... Not at all. I was getting heartily sick of talking to myself :} > > > > -- fa http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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