Re: Question about hydrolized

January 17, 2004

Ami-

>Can someone tell me what it means when an ingredient

>says " hydrolyzed " ? Is that any different from hydrogenated? If so,

>what is the difference?

In fact the terms are completely unrelated.

Hydrolysis, courtesy of Encarta:

>reaction with water: a chemical reaction in which a compound reacts with

>water, causing decomposition and the production of two or more other

>compounds, for example, the conversion of starch to glucose

Hydrogenation, courtesy of the wikipedia:

>Hydrogenation typically refers to processes through which liquid vegetable

>oils are converted to solid or semi-solid fats, such as margarine. It

>refers to a chemical reaction in which " unsaturated " bonds between carbon

>atoms are " reduced " by attachment of a hydrogen atom to each carbon.

When you eat something, your stomach acid hydrolyzes it -- it breaks it

down into smaller pieces in an aqueous medium. Hydrogenation is a

completely different reaction. It takes an oil and transforms some of its

unsaturated fatty acids into saturated ones. One problem is that many of

the unsaturated acids which remain unsaturated are transformed from their

natural cis form (a c-shaped configuration) to unnatural trans forms (a

configuration sort of like a flattened-out 's') which the body can't handle

and which case all kinds of physiological problems. Another problem is

that the reaction requires a catalyst, typically nickel, which is toxic,

and some of this catalyst remains in the oil after the reaction. Another

problem is that the reaction destroys a variety of micronutrients,

including EFAs.

Hydrolyzed food substances, though, may have their own problems, though

they're certainly not even remotely as problematic as hydrogenated

oils. Some of my research has suggested that the body has trouble making

full and proper use of foods which haven't been digested in ways it

expects. For example, while apple cider vinegar may aid indigestion, it

may not aid protein assimilation. Though this could entirely be a pepsin

deficiency issue, it could also be because the body expects protein

fragments of the sort that would result from stomach acid, not ACV, and

doesn't know what to do with ACV-hydrolyzed fragments. That's just

speculation at the moment, but until there's better data available, I'd say

that any it's worth being cautious about any pre-hydrolyzed form of protein.

-

January 17, 2004

>Hydrolyzed food substances, though, may have their own problems, though

>they're certainly not even remotely as problematic as hydrogenated

>oils.

On the other hand, in some studies hydrolyzed foods DO work

better. For instance, baby rats seem to react to casein, but not

to hydrolyzed casein. And the meat in kimchi (if it has meat)

is hydrolyzed, if I'm reading this right. Hydrolyzing meat can

cause glutamates to form, I think, but it does seem to go down

really easy. My understanding is that one reason you see

" hydrolyzed ... " whatever is that the hydrolyzing process

creates aromatic compounds and stuff that makes the food

tastes better, including, perhaps, MSG.

One thing I have noticed is that our local MSG sensitive person

reacts strongly to anything hydrolyzed in vinegar, but NOT to

anything hydrolyzed in kimchi juice. Since lactic acid and acetic

acid are isomers (?) there may be a " right/left turning " issue similar

to that of trans fats. I tend to trust kimchi juice more than

vinegar, at this point.

-- Heidi

January 17, 2004

Heidi-

>On the other hand, in some studies hydrolyzed foods DO work

>better. For instance, baby rats seem to react to casein, but not

>to hydrolyzed casein.

Good point -- hydrolysis can be helpful with allergens and proteins which

are just plain difficult to digest. I was thinking only of more natural

and healthy proteins (like those found in meat), but you're absolutely right.

>And the meat in kimchi (if it has meat)

>is hydrolyzed, if I'm reading this right.

Is there ever meat (in the usual sense of the word -- flesh from land

animals) in kimchi, though? Isn't it always seafood? I don't know whether

that makes a difference, though.

>Hydrolyzing meat can

>cause glutamates to form, I think, but it does seem to go down

>really easy.

Like I said, non-stomach hydrolysis definitely aids with indigestion, but

there is some reason to suspect that it _might_ not aid with absorption,

and that it might even interfere with absorption relative to digestion in a

properly functioning digestive system. It's really only conjecture at this

point, though, at least as far as I know.

>My understanding is that one reason you see

> " hydrolyzed ... " whatever is that the hydrolyzing process

>creates aromatic compounds and stuff that makes the food

>tastes better, including, perhaps, MSG.

That's one reason, but another is that hydrolysis allows waste products to

be turned into food additives.

>One thing I have noticed is that our local MSG sensitive person

>reacts strongly to anything hydrolyzed in vinegar, but NOT to

>anything hydrolyzed in kimchi juice. Since lactic acid and acetic

>acid are isomers (?) there may be a " right/left turning " issue similar

>to that of trans fats. I tend to trust kimchi juice more than

>vinegar, at this point.

That's _very_ interesting. I wish I tolerated cabbage better.

-

January 17, 2004

:

>And the meat in kimchi (if it has meat)

>>is hydrolyzed, if I'm reading this right.

>

>Is there ever meat (in the usual sense of the word -- flesh from land

>animals) in kimchi, though? Isn't it always seafood? I don't know whether

>that makes a difference, though.

I don't think Koreans get beef much, and when they do, they

eat it raw or broil it, as seems fitting to me. I guess when I said

" meat " I meant any animal protein. Using baby shrimp or anchovies

in kimchi is particularly useful though, because the skeletons

get dissolved.

>>Hydrolyzing meat can

>>cause glutamates to form, I think, but it does seem to go down

>>really easy.

>

>Like I said, non-stomach hydrolysis definitely aids with indigestion, but

>there is some reason to suspect that it _might_ not aid with absorption,

>and that it might even interfere with absorption relative to digestion in a

>properly functioning digestive system. It's really only conjecture at this

>point, though, at least as far as I know.

I'm thinking it may depend on the acid used. No one uses

HCL, it seems, that the stomach uses, Mostly acetic acid or lactic acid,

weak acids. But acetic acid is pretty rare, in nature, you have

to create alchohol first, then ferment it. Lactic acid is really

common, but it comes in right and left turning forms. Which

makes me wonder about Acetic acid ... someone said it is an

isomer of lactic acid, which seems unlikely, since lactic acid already

comes in 2 isomers. I need to look it up ...

>>My understanding is that one reason you see

>> " hydrolyzed ... " whatever is that the hydrolyzing process

>>creates aromatic compounds and stuff that makes the food

>>tastes better, including, perhaps, MSG.

>

>That's one reason, but another is that hydrolysis allows waste products to

>be turned into food additives.

Waste products? Meaning what exactly?

>>One thing I have noticed is that our local MSG sensitive person

>>reacts strongly to anything hydrolyzed in vinegar, but NOT to

>>anything hydrolyzed in kimchi juice. Since lactic acid and acetic

>>acid are isomers (?) there may be a " right/left turning " issue similar

>>to that of trans fats. I tend to trust kimchi juice more than

>>vinegar, at this point.

>

>That's _very_ interesting. I wish I tolerated cabbage better.

Well, it doesn't HAVE to be cabbage (though that is what I know).

I don't react to MSG myself, even when it is on the label. Does

radish kimchi cause the same problem? How about highly fermented

kimch juice? I don't tolerate CABBAGE at all, nasty stuff, but kimchi

is just FINE.

-- Heidi

January 18, 2004

Heidi-

>I don't think Koreans get beef much

Really? They sure have a lot of beef recipes!

>someone said it is an

>isomer of lactic acid,

I'm virtually certain that's incorrect, though I don't know the chemical

formulas and structures of the two acids offhand. Any isomer of acetic

acid would be called acetic acid.

>Waste products? Meaning what exactly?

Well, " hydrolyzed animal protein " can be made up of all the glop that falls

to the floor in a processing plant, for example. Anything that can't be

sold as what it is can be boiled in a big vat with acid and turned into

" hydrolyzed animal protein " . " Hydrolyzed vegetable protein " is the same

kind of thing. I'm not positive, but I think Blaylock's book on

excitotoxins gets into that a little, and I'm pretty sure there's some WAPF

literature on it too (maybe NT).

>Well, it doesn't HAVE to be cabbage (though that is what I know).

I thought you could only make kimchi with cabbage, since the cabbage is the

source and medium of the starter culture. Not so?

>Does

>radish kimchi cause the same problem?

I've never tried it.

>How about highly fermented

>kimch juice?

I haven't sufficiently experimented (partly because my guts don't seem to

especially like fermented cabbage, and because sauerkraut juice is supposed

to be a great laxative, so I'm a bit cautious) but it might be worth a try.

I'm also considering trying to make cabbage-based kimchi but with lots of

other stuff in it, especially animal protein sources, and just eating the

other stuff. If you have any suggestions, I'd appreciate them.

-

January 18, 2004

For 8 years (30+ years ago) I worked in the quality control lab of a

company that made " hydrolyzed protein " as part of an artificial beef

broth flavoring that was used by a major soup company.

Basically a powdered protein - sometimes it was casein, sometimes soy -

would be dumped in a vat with hydrochloric acid for about 36 hours IIRC.

Then the equivalent amount of Sodiun Hydroxide would be added along with

powdered activated charcoal and filter powder. It would then be pumped

under some pressure thru a large filtering machine. The resultant liquid

was pure white and about 12% salt.

A similar process is how most modern soy sauce is made, rather than the

traditional long slow fermentation. I made small batches in the lab from

time to time.

Another strange product we made was artificial margarine. Believe it or

not, one of the ingredients was butter.

Carol K

>Message: 8

> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 23:05:04 -0500

> From: Idol <Idol@...>

>Subject: Re: Question about " hydrolized "

>

>Ami-

>

>>Can someone tell me what it means when an ingredient

>>says " hydrolyzed " ? Is that any different from hydrogenated? If so,

>>what is the difference?

>>

>

>In fact the terms are completely unrelated.

>

>Hydrolysis, courtesy of Encarta:

>

>>reaction with water: a chemical reaction in which a compound reacts with

>>water, causing decomposition and the production of two or more other

>>compounds, for example, the conversion of starch to glucose

>>

>

>Hydrogenation, courtesy of the wikipedia:

>

>>Hydrogenation typically refers to processes through which liquid vegetable

>>oils are converted to solid or semi-solid fats, such as margarine. It

>>refers to a chemical reaction in which " unsaturated " bonds between carbon

>>atoms are " reduced " by attachment of a hydrogen atom to each carbon.

>>

>

>When you eat something, your stomach acid hydrolyzes it -- it breaks it

>down into smaller pieces in an aqueous medium. Hydrogenation is a

>completely different reaction. It takes an oil and transforms some of its

>unsaturated fatty acids into saturated ones. One problem is that many of

>the unsaturated acids which remain unsaturated are transformed from their

>natural cis form (a c-shaped configuration) to unnatural trans forms (a

>configuration sort of like a flattened-out 's') which the body can't handle

>and which case all kinds of physiological problems. Another problem is

>that the reaction requires a catalyst, typically nickel, which is toxic,

>and some of this catalyst remains in the oil after the reaction. Another

>problem is that the reaction destroys a variety of micronutrients,

>including EFAs.

>

>Hydrolyzed food substances, though, may have their own problems, though

>they're certainly not even remotely as problematic as hydrogenated

>oils. Some of my research has suggested that the body has trouble making

>full and proper use of foods which haven't been digested in ways it

>expects. For example, while apple cider vinegar may aid indigestion, it

>may not aid protein assimilation. Though this could entirely be a pepsin

>deficiency issue, it could also be because the body expects protein

>fragments of the sort that would result from stomach acid, not ACV, and

>doesn't know what to do with ACV-hydrolyzed fragments. That's just

>speculation at the moment, but until there's better data available, I'd say

>that any it's worth being cautious about any pre-hydrolyzed form of protein.

>

>-

>

January 18, 2004

The butter was probably what made it " artificial. "

Judith Alta

Re: Question about " hydrolized "