Guest guest Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 To All interested: I have several comments on this topic and lots of experience: First off, although a band-aid, i think the idea of setting up negative pressure installed in the basement is a good idea - you are now controlling the environment or managing it in place...though the occupants need to know that if it shuts down there still could be a health risk involved... which is now a good segway into Mr. Geyer's comments to use heat... WHAT???? First off - what is the heat going to do? Kill the mold??? so what...if the crawlspace is wet or damp, the mold will just come back. If it is dead, dead mold still has allergenic proteins that can be harmful to people. AND if you heat it and dessicate the spores, they may not be lighter and go airborne more easily and risk contaminating the occupied space more easily. DO NOT HEAT the space. If you are still thinking about it - find out what scientific evidence supports heat in mold remediation. There is none. We don't know at what temp for what duration heat will kill what type of mold and how many species of molds are there out there? Again - if it is dead - WHO CARES! Lastly - we had the unfortunate opportunity to use heat in crawlspaces. Terrible mistake and almost cost us $100,000+ job and a severe hit to our reputation. It doesn't work. Use heat to kill bugs - not mold. So - for the crawlspace, you have two options: 1. Band aid - set up air scubbers/filtering machines in the occupied space, monitor regularly and control air borne particulate. 2. Solve the problem correctly. Fix the moisture source, clean the crawlspace (find someone small) or go in from the occupied space by removing flooring. Finally - there is only 1 company who offers heat in mold remediation because they have a patent on doing so. Here is their policy statement taken from their website: Policy Statement: COMPANY is considered a new and developing technology as a fungal remediation tool. The implementation of COMPANY is not the same technology as gross mold removal. Whenever possible, gross removal of mold should be the preferred method of mold remediation. When COMPANY is used as a remediation tool the project should be overseen by an independent and qualified Indoor Environmental Professional (IEP). Most fungal remediation methods, including COMPANY, leave both dead and live fungi following remediation. Both live and dead fungi are a potential health risk. If you want to know who that company is - ask envirobob or email me directly... And lastly - YOU NEED A VAPOR BARRIER! Good luck!! --- EnviroBob wrote: > Dear Mr. Geyer, > > > > And how do you address the remaining (or dead) > particulate (spores and body > fragments, etc.) that eventually will migrate back > into the dwelling thus > more likely than not coming into contact with > receptors? I am not sure if > you have kept up with the various concerns over he > issues that surround the > mold and its body fragments. Is your protocol for > relief a temporary means > or permanent? > > > > One must consider that the dwelling or unit owner > most likely called in an > EC due to particulate migration towards the occupied > space. > > > > EnviroBob > > > > _____ > > From: iequality > [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf > Of Geyer > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:05 PM > To: iequality > Subject: Re: Remediation delima > > > > Downeast: > > When I was performing a lot of construction work and > we were faced with a a > tight crawl space, AND we had to get into that > crawlspace, we cut strategic > holes in the floor....and went in from the top. > However, if you are > dead-set on physically removing all the mold, it may > be more cost effective > to demolish the whole floor system, remove it, and > rebuild..........which is > exactly why I often advocate leaving the mold in > place and killing it with > heat; in lieu of demolishing a structure. What is > the lesser of the two > evils? You decide. > > For what it is worth...... > > > > > On 12/31/07 1:39 PM, " graybrian11 " > wrote: > > > > > > I have a problem and am looking for a new strategy. > There is an > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building (really > it is an old > country store with new section added on for offices) > that is loaded > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be > concentrated visually on > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The site is > located in the > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High water table > is usually a > problem but with the drought on our area not so much > at the moment. > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation between > the floor joists. > The problem is there is no room to work in there > (anything form 0 to a > max. of 24 " ). I have been in some tight spots > before, but this one > was TIGHT! > > We usually go for physical removal, treating, and > coating in > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here there > is just no room to > work. Short of going in from the top down, room by > room, or just tear > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. Looking > for another way. > > Downeast > > > > S. Home Cell " A day without sunshine is like, you know, night. " -Steve ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Short of ripping out the flooring, my recommendation is to mist (fog) the crawl space with a good antimicrobial/biocide killing everything. Follow this (make sure the surfaces are dry) with a microbial surface protectant to prevent re-growth. To keep anything from entering the occupied space, cover the topside of the subfloor with an encapsulant impregnated with a microbial surface protectant. This can be done on the sub-floor under carpeting, tile, etc. or directly on a painted floor (can be tinted). I use a couple different water-based products/brands that are able to do this. If you’re not familiar with these chemicals I’d be glad to speak with you about them and/or recommend someone in your local area who can help. Regards, Jeff Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 , Your statement is the most comprehensive I have seen thus far. What gets me the most is the occupants called in an EC. Why; because the particulate was migrating into the occupied space and coming into contact with triggers. Lets think about it a bit, heat causes expansion, expansion results in increased pressure, increased pressure will migrate to areas of lesser pressure (nature hates an imbalance). This allows or evidences available pathways and additionally due to the shrinkage of the building materials pathways are increased in sized and/or developed. Heat is not the solution. The only acceptable means of remediation based upon industry consensus is removal except under extreme condition to which I do not feel this falls under (according to supplied information at this point). Regardless, heat is absolutely “NOT” the answer for this condition. And as for a vapor barrier, be sure you apply it correctly and to the proper side of the materials or you will revisit the condition again. EnviroBob From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of eric anderson Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:10 AM To: iequality Subject: RE: Remediation delima To All interested: I have several comments on this topic and lots of experience: First off, although a band-aid, i think the idea of setting up negative pressure installed in the basement is a good idea - you are now controlling the environment or managing it in place...though the occupants need to know that if it shuts down there still could be a health risk involved... which is now a good segway into Mr. Geyer's comments to use heat... WHAT???? First off - what is the heat going to do? Kill the mold??? so what...if the crawlspace is wet or damp, the mold will just come back. If it is dead, dead mold still has allergenic proteins that can be harmful to people. AND if you heat it and dessicate the spores, they may not be lighter and go airborne more easily and risk contaminating the occupied space more easily. DO NOT HEAT the space. If you are still thinking about it - find out what scientific evidence supports heat in mold remediation. There is none. We don't know at what temp for what duration heat will kill what type of mold and how many species of molds are there out there? Again - if it is dead - WHO CARES! Lastly - we had the unfortunate opportunity to use heat in crawlspaces. Terrible mistake and almost cost us $100,000+ job and a severe hit to our reputation. It doesn't work. Use heat to kill bugs - not mold. So - for the crawlspace, you have two options: 1. Band aid - set up air scubbers/filtering machines in the occupied space, monitor regularly and control air borne particulate. 2. Solve the problem correctly. Fix the moisture source, clean the crawlspace (find someone small) or go in from the occupied space by removing flooring. Finally - there is only 1 company who offers heat in mold remediation because they have a patent on doing so. Here is their policy statement taken from their website: Policy Statement: COMPANY is considered a new and developing technology as a fungal remediation tool. The implementation of COMPANY is not the same technology as gross mold removal. Whenever possible, gross removal of mold should be the preferred method of mold remediation. When COMPANY is used as a remediation tool the project should be overseen by an independent and qualified Indoor Environmental Professional (IEP). Most fungal remediation methods, including COMPANY, leave both dead and live fungi following remediation. Both live and dead fungi are a potential health risk. If you want to know who that company is - ask envirobob or email me directly... And lastly - YOU NEED A VAPOR BARRIER! Good luck!! --- EnviroBob <BobEnvironmentalAirTechs> wrote: > Dear Mr. Geyer, > > > > And how do you address the remaining (or dead) > particulate (spores and body > fragments, etc.) that eventually will migrate back > into the dwelling thus > more likely than not coming into contact with > receptors? I am not sure if > you have kept up with the various concerns over he > issues that surround the > mold and its body fragments. Is your protocol for > relief a temporary means > or permanent? > > > > One must consider that the dwelling or unit owner > most likely called in an > EC due to particulate migration towards the occupied > space. > > > > EnviroBob > > > > _____ > > From: iequality > [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf > Of Geyer > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:05 PM > To: iequality > Subject: Re: Remediation delima > > > > Downeast: > > When I was performing a lot of construction work and > we were faced with a a > tight crawl space, AND we had to get into that > crawlspace, we cut strategic > holes in the floor....and went in from the top. > However, if you are > dead-set on physically removing all the mold, it may > be more cost effective > to demolish the whole floor system, remove it, and > rebuild..........which is > exactly why I often advocate leaving the mold in > place and killing it with > heat; in lieu of demolishing a structure. What is > the lesser of the two > evils? You decide. > > For what it is worth...... > > > > > On 12/31/07 1:39 PM, " graybrian11 " > <brianegrayembarqmail> wrote: > > > > > > I have a problem and am looking for a new strategy. > There is an > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building (really > it is an old > country store with new section added on for offices) > that is loaded > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be > concentrated visually on > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The site is > located in the > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High water table > is usually a > problem but with the drought on our area not so much > at the moment. > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation between > the floor joists. > The problem is there is no room to work in there > (anything form 0 to a > max. of 24 " ). I have been in some tight spots > before, but this one > was TIGHT! > > We usually go for physical removal, treating, and > coating in > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here there > is just no room to > work. Short of going in from the top down, room by > room, or just tear > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. Looking > for another way. > > Downeast > > > > S. Home Cell " A day without sunshine is like, you know, night. " -Steve __________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 , I was VERY careful to say " possible foundation issues. " Might I return your own words of caution by saying, " Be VERY careful " with your recommendations for using heat. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > > Carl: > > Be VERY careful with this recommendation! Removing soil from a > crawlspace should only be performed AFTER an engineer evaluates the > building foundation, the depth of the foundation, and then recommends > just how much soil and where it can be removed, if possible. (Most > of the time, I find the answer is: NO) If the foundation is > undermined, the foundation does not become well supported, and the > resulting damage can be catastrophic! > > I have worked on 7 structures where this recommendation was made, > soil was removed, and footings shifted. The fix is VERY expensive. > > Removing soil around existing foundation elements is the realm of an > experienced engineer, and those that aren´t need not get involved. > > > > > > > > > > > Are there structural issues or just the mold growth? Are there health > complaints? If neither, what is the reason for doing anything? > > In addition to the pressure differentials and floor removal, the dirt > can be dug out to create sufficient room to work (possible foundation > issues). It's expensive but if it must be fixed then that is another > way to gain access. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > ----- > > I have a problem and am looking for a new strategy. There is an > > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building (really it is an old > > country store with new section added on for offices) that is loaded > > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be concentrated visually > on > > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The site is located in the > > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High water table is usually a > > problem but with the drought on our area not so much at the moment. > > > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation between the floor > joists. > > The problem is there is no room to work in there (anything form 0 > to a > > max. of 24 " ). I have been in some tight spots before, but this one > > was TIGHT! > > > > We usually go for physical removal, treating, and coating in > > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here there is just no room > to > > work. Short of going in from the top down, room by room, or just > tear > > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. Looking for another way. > > > > Downeast > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not > always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are > making such material available in our efforts to advance > understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, > democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe > this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as > provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance > with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is > distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior > interest in receiving the included information for research and > educational purposes. For more information go to: > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use > copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go > beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright > owner. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 , I am sure that Carl's comment and mine both meant to have professionals who is capable of working on building structure to do that, not the mold remediation contractor. Wei Tang QLab Geyer wrote: Carl:Be VERY careful with this recommendation! Removing soil from a crawlspace should only be performed AFTER an engineer evaluates the building foundation, the depth of the foundation, and then recommends just how much soil and where it can be removed, if possible. (Most of the time, I find the answer is: NO) If the foundation is undermined, the foundation does not become well supported, and the resulting damage can be catastrophic!I have worked on 7 structures where this recommendation was made, soil was removed, and footings shifted. The fix is VERY expensive.Removing soil around existing foundation elements is the realm of an experienced engineer, and those that aren’t need not get involved.On 1/2/08 3:54 PM, "Carl E. Grimes" <grimeshabitats> wrote: Are there structural issues or just the mold growth? Are there health complaints? If neither, what is the reason for doing anything?In addition to the pressure differentials and floor removal, the dirt can be dug out to create sufficient room to work (possible foundation issues). It's expensive but if it must be fixed then that is another way to gain access.Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-----> I have a problem and am looking for a new strategy. There is an > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building (really it is an old > country store with new section added on for offices) that is loaded > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be concentrated visually on > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The site is located in the > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High water table is usually a > problem but with the drought on our area not so much at the moment. > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation between the floor joists. > The problem is there is no room to work in there (anything form 0 to a > max. of 24"). I have been in some tight spots before, but this one > was TIGHT!> > We usually go for physical removal, treating, and coating in > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here there is just no room to > work. Short of going in from the top down, room by room, or just tear > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. Looking for another way.> > Downeast > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE:> > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 All: Before we get all bent out of shape at each other, let's think about the situation. A 5000 SF old country store that has little or no crawl space? We have a bunch of these old buildings here in GA, & I'm betting that this mold is not the biggest issue the building owner is facing. Untreated wood ( & the building is too old for the floor system to be treated, I'll bet) in or near contact with the ground here in the Southeast usually means termites at some point. It may not even have footings & foundation; it could be built on piers & sills. Also, the framing probably is below code by today's standards. Probably not worth a huge amount as a building, though it may be on some nice land. So how much can the owner put into it? Probably not as much as some of these posts are suggesting. And has there been an IAQ complaint? We don't know. Maybe a termite company saw the mold, told the owner, and he called an IH to see about it. For the money, put in a negative air system to keep crawlspace air out of the building. Shoot for the six Pascal's required for remediation. Heck, even if you put battery backups on the fans you will come out at pennies on the dollar compared to some suggestions. It is an interesting exercise in thought, though. All that said, I think that the best option for source removal (if the owner wants to go there) is to remove the floors to access the framing for cleaning. This would allow the opportunity to add a proper vapor barrier, & even to dig out a proper crawlspace (not to mention correcting the electrical & plumbing issues that always seem to exist in these old buildings). If you leave some earth at the foundation (if there is one) and any piers, then movement of the building should not be an issue. Beware though. This much work in a building open to the public probably requires a permit, opening the door for the building inspector to require all kinds of unrelated work to bring the building up to code. Cole, CR, WLS Sentry Construction Company, Inc. Macon, GAStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Wei: Both you and Carl miss the point. Building foundations are designed by licensed engineers and licensed engineers sign-off on foundation modifications per permit requirements. Removing soil from a building foundation triggers a permit condition and warrants use of a licensed and experienced ENGINEER. I cannot think of a situation where it would not. Not a generic “professional.” Not a contractor, not an EC, not a CIH, not a microbiologist, not an MD, etc. An engineer! I can think of only two foundations where post-construction of the footing/stem wall, soil was backfilled that was not necessary. And to this day I don’t know why. In this instance, soil removal was a piece of cake. However, if a crawlspace is less than 24-in in height, it is because the foundation is shallow, and, more often than not, soil cannot be removed without shoring, or phased removal and replacement. Like EnviroBob stated, replacing the removed soil with concrete is often necessary. I typically spec a 1-sack sand:pea-gravel slurry (post soil removal) that can be easily leveled. Adding 1 to 2% bentonite will also help mitigate shrinkage cracks and ensure that the slurry stays tight against the footing; which is VERY important, especially in areas with frost heave/ lateral freeze loading. A 4 to 6-in thick layer of slurry also provides adequate water vapor control in most instances. This said, a crawlspace with less than 24-in of vertical clearance is a PITA (pain in the ass), and often requires top-down access if extensive repairs, modification, and/or remediation is warranted. More often than not, a crawlspace cannot be easily made deeper (taller). If you have a structure with a shallow crawlspace, you are often stuck with it. All this said, removing soil from a crawlspace is not for “professionals” capable of working on building structures, it is the realm of the ENGINEER; typically by code and by law. For what it is worth. , I am sure that Carl's comment and mine both meant to have professionals who is capable of working on building structure to do that, not the mold remediation contractor. Wei Tang QLab Geyer wrote: Carl: Be VERY careful with this recommendation! Removing soil from a crawlspace should only be performed AFTER an engineer evaluates the building foundation, the depth of the foundation, and then recommends just how much soil and where it can be removed, if possible. (Most of the time, I find the answer is: NO) If the foundation is undermined, the foundation does not become well supported, and the resulting damage can be catastrophic! I have worked on 7 structures where this recommendation was made, soil was removed, and footings shifted. The fix is VERY expensive. Removing soil around existing foundation elements is the realm of an experienced engineer, and those that aren’t need not get involved. Are there structural issues or just the mold growth? Are there health complaints? If neither, what is the reason for doing anything? In addition to the pressure differentials and floor removal, the dirt can be dug out to create sufficient room to work (possible foundation issues). It's expensive but if it must be fixed then that is another way to gain access. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > I have a problem and am looking for a new strategy. There is an > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building (really it is an old > country store with new section added on for offices) that is loaded > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be concentrated visually on > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The site is located in the > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High water table is usually a > problem but with the drought on our area not so much at the moment. > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation between the floor joists. > The problem is there is no room to work in there (anything form 0 to a > max. of 24 " ). I have been in some tight spots before, but this one > was TIGHT! > > We usually go for physical removal, treating, and coating in > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here there is just no room to > work. Short of going in from the top down, room by room, or just tear > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. Looking for another way. > > Downeast > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Chris: All very good observations/suggestions. All: Before we get all bent out of shape at each other, let's think about the situation. A 5000 SF old country store that has little or no crawl space? We have a bunch of these old buildings here in GA, & I'm betting that this mold is not the biggest issue the building owner is facing. Untreated wood ( & the building is too old for the floor system to be treated, I'll bet) in or near contact with the ground here in the Southeast usually means termites at some point. It may not even have footings & foundation; it could be built on piers & sills. Also, the framing probably is below code by today's standards. Probably not worth a huge amount as a building, though it may be on some nice land. So how much can the owner put into it? Probably not as much as some of these posts are suggesting. And has there been an IAQ complaint? We don't know. Maybe a termite company saw the mold, told the owner, and he called an IH to see about it. For the money, put in a negative air system to keep crawlspace air out of the building. Shoot for the six Pascal's required for remediation. Heck, even if you put battery backups on the fans you will come out at pennies on the dollar compared to some suggestions. It is an interesting exercise in thought, though. All that said, I think that the best option for source removal (if the owner wants to go there) is to remove the floors to access the framing for cleaning. This would allow the opportunity to add a proper vapor barrier, & even to dig out a proper crawlspace (not to mention correcting the electrical & plumbing issues that always seem to exist in these old buildings). If you leave some earth at the foundation (if there is one) and any piers, then movement of the building should not be an issue. Beware though. This much work in a building open to the public probably requires a permit, opening the door for the building inspector to require all kinds of unrelated work to bring the building up to code. Cole, CR, WLS Sentry Construction Company, Inc. Macon, GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 - What is your obsession with using heat for a " cure all " for any sort of difficult to treat/remediate mold contamination? What, in your opinion, does the heat acutally do? --- " Carl E. Grimes " wrote: > , > > I was VERY careful to say " possible foundation > issues. " > > Might I return your own words of caution by saying, > " Be VERY careful " > with your recommendations for using heat. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > ----- > > > > Carl: > > > > Be VERY careful with this recommendation! Removing > soil from a > > crawlspace should only be performed AFTER an > engineer evaluates the > > building foundation, the depth of the foundation, > and then recommends > > just how much soil and where it can be removed, if > possible. (Most > > of the time, I find the answer is: NO) If the > foundation is > > undermined, the foundation does not become well > supported, and the > > resulting damage can be catastrophic! > > > > I have worked on 7 structures where this > recommendation was made, > > soil was removed, and footings shifted. The fix is > VERY expensive. > > > > Removing soil around existing foundation elements > is the realm of an > > experienced engineer, and those that aren´t need > not get involved. > > > > > > > > > > On 1/2/08 3:54 PM, " Carl E. Grimes " > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Are there structural issues or just the mold > growth? Are there health > > complaints? If neither, what is the reason > for doing anything? > > > > In addition to the pressure differentials and > floor removal, the dirt > > can be dug out to create sufficient room to > work (possible foundation > > issues). It's expensive but if it must be > fixed then that is another > > way to gain access. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > I have a problem and am looking for a new > strategy. There is an > > > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building > (really it is an old > > > country store with new section added on for > offices) that is loaded > > > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be > concentrated visually > > on > > > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The > site is located in the > > > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High > water table is usually a > > > problem but with the drought on our area > not so much at the moment. > > > > > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation > between the floor > > joists. > > > The problem is there is no room to work in > there (anything form 0 > > to a > > > max. of 24 " ). I have been in some tight > spots before, but this one > > > was TIGHT! > > > > > > We usually go for physical removal, > treating, and coating in > > > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here > there is just no room > > to > > > work. Short of going in from the top down, > room by room, or just > > tear > > > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. > Looking for another way. > > > > > > Downeast > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > This site contains copyrighted material the > use of which has not > > always been specifically authorized by the > copyright owner. We are > > making such material available in our efforts > to advance > > understanding of environmental, political, > human rights, economic, > > democracy, scientific, and social justice > issues, etc. We believe > > this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such > copyrighted material as > > provided for in section 107 of the US > Copyright Law. In accordance > > with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the > material on this site is > > distributed without profit to those who have > expressed a prior > > interest in receiving the included > information for research and > > educational purposes. For more information go > to: > > > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If > you wish to use > > copyrighted material from this site for > purposes of your own that go > > beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission > from the copyright > > owner. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 , Thanks for your explanation. You will be the right guy to be consulted for this job then. Wei Tang QLab Geyer wrote: Wei:Both you and Carl miss the point. Building foundations are designed by licensed engineers and licensed engineers sign-off on foundation modifications per permit requirements. Removing soil from a building foundation triggers a permit condition and warrants use of a licensed and experienced ENGINEER. I cannot think of a situation where it would not. Not a generic “professional.” Not a contractor, not an EC, not a CIH, not a microbiologist, not an MD, etc. An engineer!I can think of only two foundations where post-construction of the footing/stem wall, soil was backfilled that was not necessary. And to this day I don’t know why. In this instance, soil removal was a piece of cake. However, if a crawlspace is less than 24-in in height, it is because the foundation is shallow, and, more often than not, soil cannot be removed without shoring, or phased removal and replacement. Like EnviroBob stated, replacing the removed soil with concrete is often necessary. I typically spec a 1-sack sand:pea-gravel slurry (post soil removal) that can be easily leveled. Adding 1 to 2% bentonite will also help mitigate shrinkage cracks and ensure that the slurry stays tight against the footing; which is VERY important, especially in areas with frost heave/ lateral freeze loading. A 4 to 6-in thick layer of slurry also provides adequate water vapor control in most instances. This said, a crawlspace with less than 24-in of vertical clearance is a PITA (pain in the ass), and often requires top-down access if extensive repairs, modification, and/or remediation is warranted. More often than not, a crawlspace cannot be easily made deeper (taller). If you have a structure with a shallow crawlspace, you are often stuck with it.All this said, removing soil from a crawlspace is not for “professionals” capable of working on building structures, it is the realm of the ENGINEER; typically by code and by law.For what it is worth.On 1/4/08 3:51 PM, "Wei Tang" <wtangQLABusa> wrote: , I am sure that Carl's comment and mine both meant to have professionals who is capable of working on building structure to do that, not the mold remediation contractor. Wei Tang QLab Geyer <mgeyeratg1> wrote: Carl:Be VERY careful with this recommendation! Removing soil from a crawlspace should only be performed AFTER an engineer evaluates the building foundation, the depth of the foundation, and then recommends just how much soil and where it can be removed, if possible. (Most of the time, I find the answer is: NO) If the foundation is undermined, the foundation does not become well supported, and the resulting damage can be catastrophic!I have worked on 7 structures where this recommendation was made, soil was removed, and footings shifted. The fix is VERY expensive.Removing soil around existing foundation elements is the realm of an experienced engineer, and those that aren’t need not get involved.On 1/2/08 3:54 PM, "Carl E. Grimes" <grimeshabitats> wrote: Are there structural issues or just the mold growth? Are there health complaints? If neither, what is the reason for doing anything?In addition to the pressure differentials and floor removal, the dirt can be dug out to create sufficient room to work (possible foundation issues). It's expensive but if it must be fixed then that is another way to gain access.Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-----> I have a problem and am looking for a new strategy. There is an > approximately 5,000 sf commercial building (really it is an old > country store with new section added on for offices) that is loaded > with pen/asp in the crawlspace (seems to be concentrated visually on > the floor joists and not the subfloor). The site is located in the > southeast US in the coatsal plain. High water table is usually a > problem but with the drought on our area not so much at the moment. > There is no vapor barrier and no insulation between the floor joists. > The problem is there is no room to work in there (anything form 0 to a > max. of 24"). I have been in some tight spots before, but this one > was TIGHT!> > We usually go for physical removal, treating, and coating in > crawlspaces with a good vapor barrier. Here there is just no room to > work. Short of going in from the top down, room by room, or just tear > the thing down, I don't have a good idea. Looking for another way.> > Downeast > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE:> > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. 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Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 , That is what I was saying, that driving off the surface vapors with heat would cause a reduction in smellables at normal temperatures, at least for a while. But I would not expect it to last. The reason that I think it will be temporary is mostly based on what I have read about formaldehyde and fiberboard, that oven drying reduces but can not eliminate the problem, it just drys the stuff on the surface. Also, I'd expect recently, somewhat abnormally dried out things to also absorb odors much more readily.. you know what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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