Re: ASHRAE Ventilation Recommendations and Science

[Guest guest]

makes good points. I would like to add a few. The most important benefits are renewing oxygen and purging moisture. Imagine space occupied by people who are consuming oxygen and .25 lbs. of moisture per hour without adequate fresh air. A damp mold growing, oxygen depleted space is the result. Do we need fresh air? I need proof? ASHRAE suggest 5 cfm per person plus .01 cfm per sqft. of space as a minimum plus natural infiltration and other induced infiltration.

But my space is so pure, I am not going introduce polluted, humid outside air. My comment: The base air in your home is the outside polluted air. At the slow trickle of infiltration of fresh air in an air tight home, the indoor pollutants build-up,oxygen decline and moisture increases. The more advanced thinking is to supplement the natural ventilation to the ASHRAE recommendation with filtered make fresh air when the building is occupied. During dry weather, no further treatment is needed. During high outdoor humidity, a/c and supplemental dehumidification will maintain <50% RH. Personal proof might be monitoring %RH and CO2 levels in the home. I am involved in ventilating dehumidifiers for the last 17 years and am convinced of the need of fresh air and <50%RH for health as level as comfort. Ken Gehring, thermastor.comStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken:

Reading you posting, and the suggestion for monitoring %RH and CO2 in the home,

I wonder, does anyone know of a thermostat device that also monitors CO2 so that

the ventilation provided can be matched to the actual occupancy patterns in the

home?

Sincerely,

--

LIFE ENERGY ASSOCIATES

20 Darton Street

Concord, MA 01742-5710

www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: kngeh@...

> makes good points. I would like to add a few. The most important

> benefits are renewing oxygen and purging moisture. Imagine space occupied by

> people who are consuming oxygen and .25 lbs. of moisture per hour without

> adequate fresh air. A damp mold growing, oxygen depleted space is the

result.

> Do

> we need fresh air? I need proof? ASHRAE suggest 5 cfm per person plus .01

> cfm per sqft. of space as a minimum plus natural infiltration and other

induced

> infiltration.

> But my space is so pure, I am not going introduce polluted, humid outside

> air. My comment: The base air in your home is the outside polluted air. At

> the slow trickle of infiltration of fresh air in an air tight home, the

indoor

> pollutants build-up,oxygen decline and moisture increases. The more advanced

> thinking is to supplement the natural ventilation to the ASHRAE

> recommendation with filtered make fresh air when the building is occupied.

> During dry

> weather, no further treatment is needed. During high outdoor humidity, a/c

> and supplemental dehumidification will maintain <50% RH. Personal proof might

> be monitoring %RH and CO2 levels in the home. I am involved in ventilating

> dehumidifiers for the last 17 years and am convinced of the need of fresh air

> and <50%RH for health as level as comfort. Ken Gehring, thermastor.com

>

>

>

> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

Dear Danny:

Are you familiar with the term " housitosis " where a home smells bad to the

accumulation of odors associated with under ventilation.?

--

LIFE ENERGY ASSOCIATES

20 Darton Street

Concord, MA 01742-5710

www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com

-------------- Original message ----------------------

> My point is specifically in a house with no fossil fuel combustion, no

> radon and good humidity control to prevent mold.

> If a thorough attempt to limit VOC's like formaldehyde is made, and

> the house is thoroughly ventilated prior to occupation, have there

> been any studies that show ASHRAE recommendations are beneficial?

> Thank you,

> Danny

> >

> > " should not be an issue " - BUT in reality formaldehyde, radon, mold,

> carbon monoxide (from any fossil fue combustion) , etc are big issues.

>

>

>

My point is specifically in a house with no fossil fuel combustion, no

radon and good humidity control to prevent mold.

If a thorough attempt to limit VOC's like formaldehyde is made, and

the house is thoroughly ventilated prior to occupation, have there

been any studies that show ASHRAE recommendations are beneficial?

Thank you,

Danny

>

> " should not be an issue " - BUT in reality formaldehyde, radon, mold,

carbon monoxide (from any fossil fue combustion) , etc are big issues.

[Guest guest]

>

> In regards to Dr. Lsitburek's writings and research, I am a huge

fan of him and his work. He is one of the few true building

scientists around. He regularly writes and will tell you that

ASHRAE's recommendations do not make sense for hot humid climates.

He says he has not been able to convince the rest of the Board to

update their recommendations and make them climate specific.

> Thank you,

> Danny

>

Dr. Joe Lstiburek chaired ASHRAE's vent committe that recommends 7cfm

per person plus .01 cfm per sqft. as a minimal starting point.

Consider that the mechanical fresh combines with the natural air

fresh air leakage into the building. On a windy, cold day, expect a

additional 50% increase in the fresh air entering the home. Oxygen

and maintaining <50%RH are proven requirements of basic indoor air

quality. Heating, cooling, dehumidifying and filtering for a typical

home cost less than $300 per year with modern a/c and whole

ventilating dehumidifier. For your personal needs, do whatever you

please. Post us on the long term results. If you are suggesting for

others, be cautious. That is why we have codes. I have been involved

in many sick homes that fresh air and providing <50% RH improved the

health of the occupants. Regards to my friends. Ken Gehring

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the responses. Unfortunately It appears I am not asking my question clearly enough. I am aware of the ASHRAE recommendations and the reasoning behind them. What I am looking for is the research that backs them up. Sepcifically I am looking for research that backs up their recommendations in my particular case of an ultra tight home, without combustion appliances, without smoking or chemicals or radon. What studies have been done to show bringing in hot humid air on a red ozone day is beneficial? Is there any research out there or is this all based on theory and a business model that promotes the HVAC industry? If you can provide me with the studies' references, I would appreciate it. Please only include scientific studies, not case reports. Thanks, Danny

[Guest guest]

Danny

Go search ASHRAE. The historical evidence on why occupied buildings need ventilation is almost a hundred years old. Since all building materials emit volatiles, furniture even more and personal use products even more than that, houses really need ventilation.

It is all a simple mass balance equation but the source strength data is highly variable and dispersed and somewhat hard to find; ASHRAE did a reasonable bit of work to draw it together.

Jim H. White System Science Consulting

Re: ASHRAE Ventilation Recommendations and Science

Thank you for the responses. Unfortunately It appears I am not asking my question clearly enough. I am aware of the ASHRAE recommendations and the reasoning behind them. What I am looking for is the research that backs them up. Sepcifically I am looking for research that backs up their recommendations in my particular case of an ultra tight home, without combustion appliances, without smoking or chemicals or radon. What studies have been done to show bringing in hot humid air on a red ozone day is beneficial? Is there any research out there or is this all based on theory and a business model that promotes the HVAC industry? If you can provide me with the studies' references, I would appreciate it. Please only include scientific studies, not case reports.

Thanks,

Danny

[Guest guest]

I have tried to search ASHRAE but have found no scientific research that justifies their recommendations. I have to admit, i find it concerning that no one on this list, which seems to be filled with ventilation professionals, is able to provide any research that justifies the recommendations that you are making to your customers. I would love to be proven wrong, but ASHRAE appears to be an organization developed to promote the sales of HVAC equipment by its members. Please disprove this.Danny

[Guest guest]

Danny,

ASHRAE Standard 62.1 - Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality contains a listing of the specific contaminants and references (Table B-2, Page 19) with numerous addendum/interpretation statements (50 - 60 pages worth).

Mike , CIEC

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