Re: Insulation infiltration & health effects

[Guest guest]

Dan - I am new to the forum. Our company builds high end custom homes

in Tennessee and Georgia and has been for many decades.

Apparently you are sold on spray foam technology. As a builder, we

looked carefully at closed cell spray foam insulation for our

clients. The one issue we have with the technology is the potential

for moisture buildup within wall cavities. Most of the products out

there claim to have a perm rating of 10 and higher, however, I have

seen quite the opposite.

We use the technology for sealing penetrations and air gaps and it

works great. But I have a lot of reservations about using it as a bat

replacement. Slowing the migration of moisture through a wall can

have some pretty detrimental effects. Case in point - hundreds of

builders were singing the praises of EIFS a few decades ago and we

all know how that ended - ugly.

Just my 2 cents from a builder's perspective...

Will

> Hi all, we have a quad (bi-level type) house in

Cincinnati, built in 1959. The walls are

> plaster (on blue-board), no insulation behind them. The living

room/dining room floor

> has cove ceilings. All hard wood or ceramic tile. Basement is

unfinished and cement.

>

> It appears that insulation had been infiltrating the house from the

attic. The insulation

> was probably added years after the house was built, and was poured

rockwool, with some

> poured fiberglass in the mix. When my wife moved into the house 10

years ago, she blew

> Cocoon cellulose insulation that apparently had the ammonium

sulfate, zinc sulfate, boric

> acid mix on it.

>

> Due to the way they built the cove ceilings, the attic was open to

the walls wherever they

> had to form the curves. This apparently allowed the insulation to

more readily get down to

> the walls, and combined with panned-bay returns to the HVAC,

microscopic bits of the

> insulation apparently were being blown through the house for years.

We noticed issues

> more specifically after we had kids (now 3.5, 2 and 6 months), and

they started having itch

> and respiratory/inflammation issues. This was a really hard

situation to figure out, and

> took quite a while to track down. We are now approaching 2 years

since my oldest

> daughter started having issues.

>

> I had the old insulation extracted, The attic space above the one

panned bay that was

> really open, sealed up, and had Bonded Logic's Ultra Touch cotton

insulation batts

> installed. We also had a Thermastor dehumidifier with outside

ventilation installed, and a

> 5 " filter box put in for the HVAC, which I currently have a Lennox

Merv16 filter in. The

> insulation was done in April, and now 8 months later, the house is

still really not livable in

> for us. I would have figured some time for the remnants in the

walls to work out, but no,

> it's still pretty bad. It seemed to get worse as the cold weather

and windy days set in. I

> guess the cold air pushes down through the walls and brings the

insulation particles which

> we have become sensitive to down into the house.

>

> I have I guess gotten sensitive enough that I can tell when the

insulation fibers are in the

> air. I can tell the difference between rockwool and fiberglass --

rockwool is definitely

> more itchy, fiberglass is finer, but still causes issues. We

visited in-laws recently, I could

> tell in my sinuses right away that they had fiberglass issues in

their house. It turns out

> from fiberglass lines HVAC ducts. They don't notice or recognize

the issue, so probably

> won't change anything there, but my wife, kids and I all got

congested and headaches

> from being there.

>

> - Have any of you here dealt with insulation issues like this?

>

> - Will the insulation eventually wash out of fabrics, or is it

permanently attached? It

> appears to me that polyester (even in blends) will not let go of

the fibers. I don't know if

> they stick together like velcro, or what. It seems like washing

natural fibers like cotton

> makes a difference, I'm not sure if it just reduces the quantity on

cotton, or totally washes

> out.

>

> - Would other people have the same issues eventually with things

like our couches and

> clothes? Trying to figure out if we should just throw it all out,

or if donating is an option.

>

> - Would getting the walls filled with foam and maybe switching the

house to hot water

> heat and maybe a central vacuum make a difference, or are we likely

to still be sensitive to

> the house?

>

> - Do people who have fiberglass sensitivities have issues with

HEPA's? I heard recently

> that HEPA media is usually boro-silicate which I guess is a type of

fiberglass. Also, talking

> about filtration, it seems to me that some of these particles are

not caught by some

> supposedly HEPA filtration. I couldn't vacuum without my daughter

being sick the next day

> until I got Nilfisk with ULPA filtration. The Sears with HEPA

didn't work, the Miele with

> HEPA was better, but still didn't catch it. With air purifiers,

Austin Air didn't catch it.

> Everyone would get congested when the Austin was turned on. I got

an IQ Air, and that

> made a big difference in particle capture, although I don't care

for the plastic smell from

> it.

>

> Two weeks ago we moved into an apartment that was built about 90

years ago. It is

> hardwood with steam heat (I really think that forced air is a big

part of kids allergy issues).

> The kids symptoms in the apartment are better than at the house,

but not totally gone. I

> have been washing all clothes and furniture before bringing them

into the apartment, but

> it appears that there is still residual stuff that is bothering

them, particularly on fabrics.

>

> Another thing regarding sensitivity -- When I tried vacuuming with

our Nilfisk ULPA at the

> apartment it smelled like the house, and gave us headaches. I had

changed the bag before

> moving it, but I guess the ULPA held on to and released odors, and

even particles as small

> as odors can cause issues. A similar problem was with the IQAir. I

put a new pre-filter in

> it, but the voc cartride and/or the HEPA cartridge were saturated

or contaminated because

> the air out of that had the house smell which gave headaches and I

turned it off right

> away.

>

> Needless to say this all of the work on the house along with

vacuums, air purifiers,

> throwing away mattresses, etc has really depleted us financially,

so I hate to throw away

> good money if it won't fix the problem. However, if foam,

radiators, and central vac would

> fix it, we would consider it.

>

> Thanks so much for whoever has experience with this or ideas about

it.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Schworn Jr.,IH,CMC,CMRS

> Vice President JCN/Environmental Services

> (443)366-4977 cell (302)684-2016 office

> Web: www.wehatemold.com

> Council-Certified Microbial Consultant (AmIAQ Council)

> Council-Certified Microbial Remediation Supervisor (A.I.A.Q.C

#0608085)

>

[Guest guest]

Hi and , If air was getting down into house from attic,

you may want to also make sure attic is clean of mold, because that

can add to your feeling sick. Barb

>

> Hi all, we have a quad (bi-level type) house in Cincinnati, built

in 1959. The walls are

> plaster (on blue-board), no insulation behind them. The living

room/dining room floor

> has cove ceilings. All hard wood or ceramic tile. Basement is

unfinished and cement.

>

> It appears that insulation had been infiltrating the house from the

attic. The insulation

> was probably added years after the house was built, and was poured

rockwool, with some

> poured fiberglass in the mix. When my wife moved into the house 10

years ago, she blew

> Cocoon cellulose insulation that apparently had the ammonium

sulfate, zinc sulfate, boric

> acid mix on it.

>

> Due to the way they built the cove ceilings, the attic was open to

the walls wherever they

> had to form the curves. This apparently allowed the insulation to

more readily get down to

> the walls, and combined with panned-bay returns to the HVAC,

microscopic bits of the

> insulation apparently were being blown through the house for years.

We noticed issues

> more specifically after we had kids (now 3.5, 2 and 6 months), and

they started having itch

> and respiratory/inflammation issues. This was a really hard

situation to figure out, and

> took quite a while to track down. We are now approaching 2 years

since my oldest

> daughter started having issues.

>

> I had the old insulation extracted, The attic space above the one

panned bay that was

> really open, sealed up, and had Bonded Logic's Ultra Touch cotton

insulation batts

> installed. We also had a Thermastor dehumidifier with outside

ventilation installed, and a

> 5 " filter box put in for the HVAC, which I currently have a Lennox

Merv16 filter in. The

> insulation was done in April, and now 8 months later, the house is

still really not livable in

> for us. I would have figured some time for the remnants in the

walls to work out, but no,

> it's still pretty bad. It seemed to get worse as the cold weather

and windy days set in. I

> guess the cold air pushes down through the walls and brings the

insulation particles which

> we have become sensitive to down into the house.

>

> I have I guess gotten sensitive enough that I can tell when the

insulation fibers are in the

> air. I can tell the difference between rockwool and fiberglass --

rockwool is definitely

> more itchy, fiberglass is finer, but still causes issues. We

visited in-laws recently, I could

> tell in my sinuses right away that they had fiberglass issues in

their house. It turns out

> from fiberglass lines HVAC ducts. They don't notice or recognize

the issue, so probably

> won't change anything there, but my wife, kids and I all got

congested and headaches

> from being there.

>

> - Have any of you here dealt with insulation issues like this?

>

> - Will the insulation eventually wash out of fabrics, or is it

permanently attached? It

> appears to me that polyester (even in blends) will not let go of

the fibers. I don't know if

> they stick together like velcro, or what. It seems like washing

natural fibers like cotton

> makes a difference, I'm not sure if it just reduces the quantity on

cotton, or totally washes

> out.

>

> - Would other people have the same issues eventually with things

like our couches and

> clothes? Trying to figure out if we should just throw it all out,

or if donating is an option.

>

> - Would getting the walls filled with foam and maybe switching the

house to hot water

> heat and maybe a central vacuum make a difference, or are we likely

to still be sensitive to

> the house?

>

> - Do people who have fiberglass sensitivities have issues with

HEPA's? I heard recently

> that HEPA media is usually boro-silicate which I guess is a type of

fiberglass. Also, talking

> about filtration, it seems to me that some of these particles are

not caught by some

> supposedly HEPA filtration. I couldn't vacuum without my daughter

being sick the next day

> until I got Nilfisk with ULPA filtration. The Sears with HEPA

didn't work, the Miele with

> HEPA was better, but still didn't catch it. With air purifiers,

Austin Air didn't catch it.

> Everyone would get congested when the Austin was turned on. I got

an IQ Air, and that

> made a big difference in particle capture, although I don't care

for the plastic smell from

> it.

>

> Two weeks ago we moved into an apartment that was built about 90

years ago. It is

> hardwood with steam heat (I really think that forced air is a big

part of kids allergy issues).

> The kids symptoms in the apartment are better than at the house,

but not totally gone. I

> have been washing all clothes and furniture before bringing them

into the apartment, but

> it appears that there is still residual stuff that is bothering

them, particularly on fabrics.

>

> Another thing regarding sensitivity -- When I tried vacuuming with

our Nilfisk ULPA at the

> apartment it smelled like the house, and gave us headaches. I had

changed the bag before

> moving it, but I guess the ULPA held on to and released odors, and

even particles as small

> as odors can cause issues. A similar problem was with the IQAir. I

put a new pre-filter in

> it, but the voc cartride and/or the HEPA cartridge were saturated

or contaminated because

> the air out of that had the house smell which gave headaches and I

turned it off right

> away.

>

> Needless to say this all of the work on the house along with

vacuums, air purifiers,

> throwing away mattresses, etc has really depleted us financially,

so I hate to throw away

> good money if it won't fix the problem. However, if foam,

radiators, and central vac would

> fix it, we would consider it.

>

> Thanks so much for whoever has experience with this or ideas about

it.

>

[Guest guest]

I submitted this just after Christmas and got no response. Let me try again in hopes that folks now have a chance to think about a response. Thanks for any advice.

I am building a house in south Louisiana and have a question for the group at large. I have heard much debate regarding different insulation systems and concerning whether the attic space should be vented or not. Given the varied IAQ experiences available here, I would appreciate your input about both issues. My current inclination is to use a soy based open cell foam insulation in an unvented attic. In addition, I plan to use 3/4 plywood roof deck plate with foil covering the attic side of the plywood. What are your opinions regarding IAQ issues if any, off gassing, moisture in the attic, etc. Thanks.

Dan

RE: Re: Insulation infiltration & health effects

Hello Joe,

What is the CO standard for fiberglass? Is it a State standard or something our Company is recommending? We have a similar project with a cient with sensitive skin. The Client has moved out of the building, neighbors blew fiberglass insultion into walls which leaked into the Client's condo, dusted the whole condo with fiberglass!

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Joe GiffordSent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:24 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Insulation infiltration & health effects

Mr. Angelo:I have had the opportunity to work on similar issues in both residential and industrial settings.First, I suggest that you confirm that it is insulation and fibers that are causing your discomfort. Simple tape sampling from numerous hard surfaces should provide the information. We have also collected micro-vac samples from fabrics with some success. These samples are usually analyzed by PLM. There are many reputable consultants in your area that should be able to help.Assuming that the previous insulation is the source you have to develop a reasonable repair. One option could be encapsulation within the accessible stud bays. This is basically painting with a latex paint in order to adhere the fibers to surfaces and prevent them from becoming airborne.The largest fan source in most homes are the furnace (HVAC). This will likely need to be cleaned. I have also had to install small filters at each furnace register in order to capture fibers still present in the system.Some fabrics do seem to clean, while others may be problematic. For rugs and draperies I have found that removing the item from the home and then spraying the item with compressed air while vacuuming with a HEPA vac can sometimes clean the fabric.We have developed a base line fiber level for new residential construction in Colorado based on the collection of samples from various homes. Fiberglass is very prevalent in new construction and some background fiber level is common.Please let me know if you have other questions.Regards,A. G. Wassenaar, Inc.Joe Gifford, CIH>> Hi all, we have a quad (bi-level type) house in Cincinnati, built in 1959. The walls are > plaster (on blue-board), no insulation behind them. The living room/dining room floor > has cove ceilings. All hard wood or ceramic tile. Basement is unfinished and cement.> > It appears that insulation had been infiltrating the house from the attic. The insulation > was probably added years after the house was built, and was poured rockwool, with some > poured fiberglass in the mix. When my wife moved into the house 10 years ago, she blew > Cocoon cellulose insulation that apparently had the ammonium sulfate, zinc sulfate, boric > acid mix on it.> > Due to the way they built the cove ceilings, the attic was open to the walls wherever they > had to form the curves. This apparently allowed the insulation to more readily get down to > the walls, and combined with panned-bay returns to the HVAC, microscopic bits of the > insulation apparently were being blown through the house for years. We noticed issues > more specifically after we had kids (now 3.5, 2 and 6 months), and they started having itch > and respiratory/inflammation issues. This was a really hard situation to figure out, and > took quite a while to track down. We are now approaching 2 years since my oldest > daughter started having issues.> > I had the old insulation extracted, The attic space above the one panned bay that was > really open, sealed up, and had Bonded Logic's Ultra Touch cotton insulation batts > installed. We also had a Thermastor dehumidifier with outside ventilation installed, and a > 5" filter box put in for the HVAC, which I currently have a Lennox Merv16 filter in. The > insulation was done in April, and now 8 months later, the house is still really not livable in > for us. I would have figured some time for the remnants in the walls to work out, but no, > it's still pretty bad. It seemed to get worse as the cold weather and windy days set in. I > guess the cold air pushes down through the walls and brings the insulation particles which > we have become sensitive to down into the house.> > I have I guess gotten sensitive enough that I can tell when the insulation fibers are in the > air. I can tell the difference between rockwool and fiberglass -- rockwool is definitely > more itchy, fiberglass is finer, but still causes issues. We visited in-laws recently, I could > tell in my sinuses right away that they had fiberglass issues in their house. It turns out > from fiberglass lines HVAC ducts. They don't notice or recognize the issue, so probably > won't change anything there, but my wife, kids and I all got congested and headaches > from being there.> > - Have any of you here dealt with insulation issues like this?> > - Will the insulation eventually wash out of fabrics, or is it permanently attached? It > appears to me that polyester (even in blends) will not let go of the fibers. I don't know if > they stick together like velcro, or what. It seems like washing natural fibers like cotton > makes a difference, I'm not sure if it just reduces the quantity on cotton, or totally washes > out.> > - Would other people have the same issues eventually with things like our couches and > clothes? Trying to figure out if we should just throw it all out, or if donating is an option.> > - Would getting the walls filled with foam and maybe switching the house to hot water > heat and maybe a central vacuum make a difference, or are we likely to still be sensitive to > the house?> > - Do people who have fiberglass sensitivities have issues with HEPA's? I heard recently > that HEPA media is usually boro-silicate which I guess is a type of fiberglass. Also, talking > about filtration, it seems to me that some of these particles are not caught by some > supposedly HEPA filtration. I couldn't vacuum without my daughter being sick the next day > until I got Nilfisk with ULPA filtration. The Sears with HEPA didn't work, the Miele with > HEPA was better, but still didn't catch it. With air purifiers, Austin Air didn't catch it. > Everyone would get congested when the Austin was turned on. I got an IQ Air, and that > made a big difference in particle capture, although I don't care for the plastic smell from > it.> > Two weeks ago we moved into an apartment that was built about 90 years ago. It is > hardwood with steam heat (I really think that forced air is a big part of kids allergy issues). > The kids symptoms in the apartment are better than at the house, but not totally gone. I > have been washing all clothes and furniture before bringing them into the apartment, but > it appears that there is still residual stuff that is bothering them, particularly on fabrics.> > Another thing regarding sensitivity -- When I tried vacuuming with our Nilfisk ULPA at the > apartment it smelled like the house, and gave us headaches. I had changed the bag before > moving it, but I guess the ULPA held on to and released odors, and even particles as small > as odors can cause issues. A similar problem was with the IQAir. I put a new pre-filter in > it, but the voc cartride and/or the HEPA cartridge were saturated or contaminated because > the air out of that had the house smell which gave headaches and I turned it off right > away.> > Needless to say this all of the work on the house along with vacuums, air purifiers, > throwing away mattresses, etc has really depleted us financially, so I hate to throw away > good money if it won't fix the problem. However, if foam, radiators, and central vac would > fix it, we would consider it.> > Thanks so much for whoever has experience with this or ideas about it.>