RE: Demilec versus Icynene

[Guest guest]

I think it is also available in a closed cell form. I don't know alot about it

and it is hard to get info from the company as to the potential for off-gassing.

> I got a quote on sealing my attic with Icynene and someone

> told me to get a quote on Demilec,

[Guest guest]

Barb, Both Demilec and Icynene have both 0.5 pound foams that are open cell (Vapor Permeable) and a 2 pound density foam that is closed cell (vapor impermeable), the open cell products have approval for spraying in certain applications without a barrier covering the insulation other than the drywall ceiling of the home itself. The last time I checked the closed cell products required a covering due to the flame spread and smoke developed ratings. We have contractors spry both types of the Icynene and Demelic products depending on the application. In closed wall around an area built into a refrigerated cooler where both sides are covered we use the 2 pound foam. In Florida for the open attics we use the half pound open cell foam characteristics. I should have most of the information you desire in the office Library if you need, let me know the information you desire including code references for approval and the requirement for when the covering is or is not required in an attic situation.

I know people that have spray both if you have specific questions, I've had Icynene in my Attic for over 8 years now, South Florida is a different climate zone than your in so you should look for local knowledge on the application and best installer.

Ron

B. , PE, CIAQP, CIEC, CMR

WE HAVE MOVED! - New Address Below Engineering Corporation

860 Jupiter Park Drive, Suite 1 Jupiter, Florida 33458

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb1283Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:12 PMTo: iequality Subject: Demilec versus Icynene

I got a quote on sealing my attic with Icynene and someone told me to get a quote on Demilec, that it is just as good/similar product. Is anyone familiar with Demilec and, if so, think it is just as good as Icynene? It is described as an open cell polyurethane foam, coded for unvented attics like Icynene.http://www.sealection500.com/dem/s500/index.php?key=semirigidfoam

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I am interested in more info about the demilec. Do you know if there are any stats on whether or not if off-gases, particularly after it hardens? Can you also explain further in lay terms why the closed cell can not be used without a covering? We were thinking of using the 2lb closed cell in our crawl space perimeter to insulate the crawl space.

Many thanks,

Sam

The last time I checked the closed cell products required a covering due to the flame spread and smoke developed ratings.

[Guest guest]

We have used Icynene for some applications. As a builder, we do not

recommend a full wall cavity application of closed cell foam. With a

PERM rating of 16 to 18, there is a concern by many experts that this

can increase moisture loading in the wall cavity. We have used both

open and closed cell foam in attics with very good results. But at

three times the cost of standard insulation, it's pretty pricy.

A word of note - If anyone does go with full cavity foam insulation

make darn sure your HVAC engineer knows what he is doing. I have seem

too many over tonned systems and the moisture problem they cause.

Will

>

> Barb, Both Demilec and Icynene have both 0.5 pound foams that are

open

> cell (Vapor Permeable) and a 2 pound density foam that is closed

cell

> (vapor impermeable), the open cell products have approval for

spraying

> in certain applications without a barrier covering the insulation

other

> than the drywall ceiling of the home itself. The last time I

checked the

> closed cell products required a covering due to the flame spread and

> smoke developed ratings. We have contractors spry both types of the

> Icynene and Demelic products depending on the application. In closed

> wall around an area built into a refrigerated cooler where both

sides

> are covered we use the 2 pound foam. In Florida for the open attics

we

> use the half pound open cell foam characteristics. I should have

most of

> the information you desire in the office Library if you need, let me

> know the information you desire including code references for

approval

> and the requirement for when the covering is or is not required in

an

> attic situation.

>

> I know people that have spray both if you have specific questions,

I've

> had Icynene in my Attic for over 8 years now, South Florida is a

> different climate zone than your in so you should look for local

> knowledge on the application and best installer.

>

>

>

> Ron

>

> B. , PE, CIAQP, CIEC, CMR

> WE HAVE MOVED! - New Address Below

> Engineering Corporation

> 860 Jupiter Park Drive, Suite 1

> Jupiter, Florida 33458

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On

> Behalf Of barb1283

> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:12 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Demilec versus Icynene

>

>

>

> I got a quote on sealing my attic with Icynene and someone told me

to

> get a quote on Demilec, that it is just as good/similar product. Is

> anyone familiar with Demilec and, if so, think it is just as good

as

> Icynene? It is described as an open cell polyurethane foam, coded

for

> unvented attics like Icynene.

>

> http://www.sealection500.com/dem/s500/index.php?key=semirigidfoam

> <http://www.sealection500.com/dem/s500/index.php?key=semirigidfoam>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks,

Both manufacturers are providing two spray foam

insulation. Spray polyurethane foams can be engineered to be applied over

a range of densities. The compounds they release fall into three

categories:

·

Blowing agent – e.g. HFC,CO2 – the gas in the

bubbles

·

MDI – released during the reaction between the two

compounds

·

Amines (mostly tertiary amines) – many amines have an odor

that can be detected at low concentrations

The blowing agent and MDI are almost exclusively an issue for

the installer and anyone near them while the foam is actually being sprayed.

They source term drops radically when the foam sets.

The amines may continue to outgas producing high enough concentrations

to be smelled for a longer period of time – days to months, but not years.

Sampling for them may be easy enough if you know what to sample for – what’s

produced depends on the particular components used to make the foam.

If the foam is cut, broken or chewed more blowing agent will be

released.

The code is finally getting useful in regard to fire protection

for exposed foams in attics, basements and crawlspaces. However you still

need to look through the code itself and legacy reports to figure things out.

In terms of water vapor permeability – it depends on the

entire assembly and the vapor pressure difference between inside and outside

throughout the year (depends on indoor temperature and rh (occupancy dependent)

and outdoor temperature and rh (climate dependent).

Terry Brennan

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Sam

Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 12:06 AM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Demilec versus Icynene

Ron,

I

am interested in more info about the demilec. Do you know if there are any

stats on whether or not if off-gases, particularly after it hardens? Can you

also explain further in lay terms why the closed cell can not be

used without a covering? We were thinking of using the 2lb closed

cell in our crawl space perimeter to insulate the crawl space.

Many

thanks,

Sam

The last time I checked the closed cell products required a

covering due to the flame spread and smoke developed ratings.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

I think Terry covered the off gassing portion. As to the covering, the issue is the flame spread and smoke developed ratings, what the code allows and what application it is tested in. Icynene and Demilec are foam plastic insulations. In the ICC Code they are covered under Chapter 2603 [i think that's right]. Additionally as Terry pointed out the Legacy Report for Icynene [iCC NER-420] gives the way the material was tested and any caveats to it's use. For example on a sloped or flat roof in an enclosed attic only accessed only for "utilities" Icynene spray foam insulation does not need a covering as long as the ceiling separating the living space is a minimum of 1/2" drywall , but if there is an insulated vertical wall it needs to be sprayed with a fireproofing or covered. The reasoning I believe is that in fire testing the flame on a vertical surface will run the surface faster than a horizontal surface or a sloped surface, increasing the flame spread and smoke developed ratings. Since the code specifies maximum values,I suspect the vertical installation could not pass the test with out additional protection. The Icynene 0.5 pound Insulation will burn, but is self extinguishing once the flame is removed.

The old generation plastic foams, and I suspect the 2 pound density foams, when exposed to flames, melt and drip flames, not only supporting combustion but spreading it as well, thus a covering is needed to lessen the impact in a fire. You must look at the product approval and manufacturers recommendations for the specific product installation guidelines.

"Utilities"- The code commentary indicates that mechanical equipment in the attic is considered a "Utility" and therefore Air Handling Units and the like can be located in the attic.

I have scanned a few pieces of information on Icynene applications, and specific code references for Florida which is based on the ICC code, so if anyone wishes, contact me off line and I will send you these.

Hope that helps with your questions.

Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Terry BrennanSent: Monday, June 09, 2008 12:33 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Demilec versus Icynene

Hi folks,

Both manufacturers are providing two spray foam insulation. Spray polyurethane foams can be engineered to be applied over a range of densities. The compounds they release fall into three categories:

· Blowing agent – e.g. HFC,CO2 – the gas in the bubbles

· MDI – released during the reaction between the two compounds

· Amines (mostly tertiary amines) – many amines have an odor that can be detected at low concentrations

The blowing agent and MDI are almost exclusively an issue for the installer and anyone near them while the foam is actually being sprayed. They source term drops radically when the foam sets.

The amines may continue to outgas producing high enough concentrations to be smelled for a longer period of time – days to months, but not years. Sampling for them may be easy enough if you know what to sample for – what’s produced depends on the particular components used to make the foam.

If the foam is cut, broken or chewed more blowing agent will be released.

The code is finally getting useful in regard to fire protection for exposed foams in attics, basements and crawlspaces. However you still need to look through the code itself and legacy reports to figure things out.

In terms of water vapor permeability – it depends on the entire assembly and the vapor pressure difference between inside and outside throughout the year (depends on indoor temperature and rh (occupancy dependent) and outdoor temperature and rh (climate dependent).

Terry Brennan

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of SamSent: Monday, June 09, 2008 12:06 AMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Demilec versus Icynene

Ron,

I am interested in more info about the demilec. Do you know if there are any stats on whether or not if off-gases, particularly after it hardens? Can you also explain further in lay terms why the closed cell can not be used without a covering? We were thinking of using the 2lb closed cell in our crawl space perimeter to insulate the crawl space.

Many thanks,

Sam

The last time I checked the closed cell products required a covering due to the flame spread and smoke developed ratings.

[Guest guest]

Dear Will, Ron and List Members,

These posts are most timely for us and has brought up a number of questions I'd

been researching. I would be grateful for your feedback aout the following:

We have a builder who likes and uses demilec alot. We're in the process of

preparing for remdiiation and then later restoration of one whole room, part of

an ajoining room, our hvac systems and our crawl space from water/mold damage.

In lay terms what does full wall cavity application mean?

In your opinion(s) would there be a problem for the hvac and/or house if the

restored areas were insulated with demilec either closed or open cell. Do you

need to be consitent with what insulation is already there? Is there a problem

for the air ducts in going through a crawl space then one room or area with

regular insulation and then on to a room with foam insulation?

How do you know if your HVAC Engineer is overdoing the tonnage and how does that

affect moisture? Are there any problems with metal air ducts versus the

fiberboard? Also, I've seen different opinions about metal ducts being insulated

or not. Does that depend on the climate or region?

We are in Delaware on the eastern shore.

Many thanks for your feedback and patience,

Sam

> As a builder, we do not recommend a full wall cavity application of

> closed cell foam. With a PERM rating of 16 to 18, there is a concern by > many

experts that this can increase moisture loading in the wall cavity.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

No formaldehyde from the polyurethane foams.

Given asthma and other sensitivity I would visit a job that had

been sprayed a month or two ago to see how it affected me. Ultimately it

affects you or not and only you can actually judge that. If it turns out to

bother you there are alternatives that can be considered.

Terry

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Sam

Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 1:19 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Demilec versus Icynene

Terry

and List Members,

I

know I can only ask for an opinion in this matter - would the amount of

off-gassing that Terry noted be prohibitive for someone with asthma or mild

mcs? I read that icynene was free of formaldehyde. Is that true from your

research? Is the same true with demilec? I've tried to get these answers from

the companies as had the builder we work with, but with no luck.

Thanks,

Sam

From: Terry Brennan terry@...

Both manufacturers are providing two

spray foam insulation.

[Guest guest]

Sam for information on Icynene call

Viktor M. Ginic, P.Eng

Building Science Engineer, ICYNENE

x229

x229 (Toll free)

(Fax)

vginic@...

Or

Warren

Building Science Technologist, ICYNENE

x250

x250 (Toll free)

(Fax)

pwarren@...

I'll get telephone numbers and Names for the people at Demilec for you tomorrow.

Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of SamSent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:05 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Demilec versus Icynene

Dear Will, Ron and List Members,These posts are most timely for us and has brought up a number of questions I'd been researching. I would be grateful for your feedback aout the following:We have a builder who likes and uses demilec alot. We're in the process of preparing for remdiiation and then later restoration of one whole room, part of an ajoining room, our hvac systems and our crawl space from water/mold damage. In lay terms what does full wall cavity application mean?In your opinion(s) would there be a problem for the hvac and/or house if the restored areas were insulated with demilec either closed or open cell. Do you need to be consitent with what insulation is already there? Is there a problem for the air ducts in going through a crawl space then one room or area with regular insulation and then on to a room with foam insulation?How do you know if your HVAC Engineer is overdoing the tonnage and how does that affect moisture? Are there any problems with metal air ducts versus the fiberboard? Also, I've seen different opinions about metal ducts being insulated or not. Does that depend on the climate or region?We are in Delaware on the eastern shore.Many thanks for your feedback and patience,Sam > As a builder, we do not recommend a full wall cavity application of > closed cell foam. With a PERM rating of 16 to 18, there is a concern by > many experts that this can increase moisture loading in the wall cavity.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the information on Demilac's Sealection and Icynene.

I'm always hoping for an easy answer or selection but there usually

are none.

Off gassing: That's what I love about reading here. You all bring up

things I would have never thought of. Unfortunately there seems to

be no products without drawbacks to insulat attic or house. I know

someone who is building a house in New Mexico with cement cider

blocks and as each layer is put down, filling the holes in the cinder

block with cement so no cavity and no insulation. An all cement

house and then she is going to stucco outside I believe. I'm not sure

how she will finish inside walls. I think no cavities and no

insulation sounds great. Probably wouldn't work in cold weather

climates.

I will still go ahead with foaming attic though. Since results will

make attic close to temperature and humidity levels on interior of

house, the exchange of air between attic and house should be

minimal. Then of course I will do as much as possible to air seal

interior envelope of house too. I just know that will take awhile.

I hope not to smell foam in house.

I am not foaming wall cavities but tops of exterior walls will get

foamed in attic along with side of exterior walls that are in attic.

Open cell I was told would allow water to pass through if there is a

leak on roof and that would allow me to know there is leak and fix

it. Closed cell I was told would not allow water to pass through and

so there could be leak on roof top and I would not know it and result

could be roof sheathing could rot and need replacement so that is why

I am only looking at open cell foams.

>

> The last time I checked the closed cell products required a

covering due to

> the flame spread and smoke developed ratings.

>

[Guest guest]

Sam,

Stick the samples in a garbage bag for a day, then sniff them. They’re

more than a month old the odor would ordinarily be gone anyway.

Terry

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Sam

Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 7:45 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Demilec versus Icynene

Terry,

Thanks

for your feedback. The contractor we are working with had some 1' x 1'

samples of the closed and open cells sprayed for me that I've

kept around the apartment. I didn't really notice any thing one way or

the other. But I suspect that a whole house being done would be a

totally different experience. I will ask him about visiting some place

if he has something newly sprayed. Many thanks,

Sam

From: Terry Brennan terry@...

No formaldehyde from the polyurethane

foams.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Terry, I'll try that. Good thought. I'll let you know what happens.

[Guest guest]

I've heard the Demilec may absorb more moisture than Icynene. That

Icynene made of material that is oiler than Demilec and that may be why

Icynene doesn't absorb moisture as much if true.

I don't know source of statement.