Re: Re: PAIN !!!!

January 4, 2008

Dave,

I know your frustrated, but don't take it out on individuals in the group. Did

you reply back to the response that was given? Many people post here on

different subjects and some posts can get over looked. No one here are medical

doctors so all you would be receiving are opinions. But there's no need to get

upset at people. We are here because we care and support each other. If you

don't get an answer right away don't be discouraged. Just repost. I read every

post but at times get busy and can't answer each one I read. And when I do have

time to sit down and answer I usually don't go back to re-read posts that are

several days old.

Many people experience pain with cirrhosis. Especially the type you explained.

Abijann posted a very good article about it.

http://www.liverdisease.com/abdominalpain_hepatitis.html

If you are uncomfortable with the treatment progression of your doctor request

to be referred to another. There is also a patients advocate office in the

hospital that can answer questions on how to get a second opinion. You didn't

mention what type of doctor you are seeing. Is it a Hepatologist? If the pain

becomes severe I would go to the ER. If not and it's become chronic seek another

appointment and insist that your doctor follow up with lab tests on the liver

and at the very least an ultra sound or CT scan.

Hang in there Dave, and just try to give us a chance. Post more questions as you

have them and take some time to get to know everyone.

MaC

Dave wrote:

>

> Hello,

> I don't know if anyone has this or has experienced this but....

> About a year ago or so I started to have Severe Pain ONLY in the A M

> when I woke up. Then it would go away in about 15-30 minutes later. I

> spoke to my Doctor, and she said HUM. I have ask her this SEVERAL

times

> STILL same answer HUM. Well now it's getting to the point where It

goes

> away and THEN returns.

> I was DX in December 2005 with Hep C & 3rd Leaning Heavely towars

> 4th stage Cirrhosis.

> Have a great day....

> -

>

---------------------------------

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January 4, 2008

What State are you in? I'll try to find some specific VA information for you.

But I'm serious, if the pain becomes severe you need to go to an ER even without

insurance. An ER can't turn you away without at least taking a look.

In the meantime stay away from things that aggravate the liver.

And, keep in mind that this may have nothing to do with liver at all.

MaC

Dave wrote:

>

Damn,

You made me feel bad for posting. NO i did not respond to the

original post, So Sorry maybe I should have.

Yes I am Frustrated, and I'm not taken it out on others.

I'll just ask the Fablous VA where I HAVE to go because I have no

Insurance....I am SURE they'll be of great help as thay have always

been. NOT.

It's all fine and well. Thanks so much for the link you sent.

I have learned one thing from support groups. You MUST have a

REALLY BAD Story to tell. At Any Rate, it's neither here no there.

Thanks,

Dave

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January 5, 2008

This is the problem. Who do you believe? If you scroll down in this article, you

will find the following:

{Prescription and over-the-counter arthritis and pain medications are

widely used. NSAIDs, which are taken to alleviate headache and a variety of

pain symptoms, can cause idiosyncratic liver toxicity. Fatalities associated

with NSAID use have been reported.25 In one study,26 the

use of ibuprofen was associated with a more than 20-fold increase in liver

function values in three patients with hepatitis C virus infection. Because

of

the unpredictable hepatotoxicity of NSAIDs, patients who have chronic liver

disease should not use these medications.} This series is one of the best I

have found concerningn liver disease. The link is here:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20011101/1555.html

Re: PAIN !!!!

>

> Hello,

> I don't know if anyone has this or has experienced this but....

> About a year ago or so I started to have Severe Pain ONLY in the A M

> when I woke up. Then it would go away in about 15-30 minutes later. I

> spoke to my Doctor, and she said HUM. I have ask her this SEVERAL

times

> STILL same answer HUM. Well now it's getting to the point where It

goes

> away and THEN returns.

> I was DX in December 2005 with Hep C & 3rd Leaning Heavely towars

> 4th stage Cirrhosis.

> Have a great day....

> -

>

Group Email: livercirrhosissuppo rtyahoogroups (DOT) com

web address:

http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/livercirrh osissupport/

January 5, 2008

For anyone who is in pain, I would definately NOT recommend using a pain

management doctors and opiates. The red tape is not worth it. It is ironic,

because according to my hepatologist, opiates are all natural and non toxic to

any organ system. This is something doctors will not tell you. If you look it

up, you will find that ALL nsaids are toxic, and can precipitate hepatorenal

syndrome in cirrhosis. I asked him if this was true, and he said it is. The

problem with opiates is that they have a reputation because of untrue stigma

placed on them. The government is going after pain doctors and locking them up

right and left so it is almost impossible to find a pain management doctor who

will treat you and treat you well. I believe that God put the opium poppy on

earth to help us deal with severe pain. Here is another tidbit that most

probably did not know. THERE IS NO MAXIMUM DOSE for OPIATES. The maximum dose is

thought to be when the pain is brought

under control, but before unwanted side effects such as respsperatory

depression or severe nausea happen. Here are some good links about this.

http://www.painreliefnetwork.org/prn/how-expert-testimony-distorts-the-standard-\

preemptive-analgesia-ethics-an-underlying-principle.php

http://www.cpmission.com/main/debunk.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/09/africa/pain.php

There is no good answer.After I had my gallbladder out last November, I asked

Sharon if she supported the idea of me going to see her pain doctor, and she

agreed it would be a good thing. I asked the hepatologist if this would be

against his advice, and he said that it wouldnt. So I did it. But every month I

have to prove myself worthy of continued treatment by keeping a journal of EVERY

PILL.

Re: Re: PAIN !!!!

I can only image the BS you must be going through! There is so much

bureaucracy in a hospital it's amazing.

On another note. I put in for an assignment to Colorado Springs ( AFB)

but didn't get it. :-(

MaC

robwalkingeagle@ yahoo.com wrote: Don't worry. I'm just venting. Sharon and I

are both sickened and disheartened by this. They did an exam, and then after

asking what I could take, gave me a dose of oxycodone. Then came back, said they

saw no break on the xray, talked to my pcp, and the two of them put their heads

together and they wrote me a prescription for Celebrex. Look that one up.

Totally contraindicated. I called hepatology, they said I may not take Celebrex.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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January 5, 2008

Well, when it comes right down to it, I prefer to risk the NSAID than to live in

terrible pain from an ear ache, a tooth ache or this horrible hip/back pain. If

I die from it...oh well, at least I'll have died without the pain of the above.

And yes, I do understand what you're saying, Mac. One person's health food is

another person's poison.

Colleen

MaC wrote:

I thinks it's not just the pain medication but the dosage and the severity of

the damage to the liver. Even healthy individuals without liver disease can hurt

their liver with to much of a dosage of Tylenol or Motrin. It's trickier in

patients with liver disease though. There may be safe dosages to take that will

not do much harm to the liver in certain patients. In others it may cause

greater harm. It depends on how the liver is functioning and what processes are

compensated and what are not. In my opinion.

For instance, in may be ok for you to take an NSAID at the normal dosage and not

do any damage to the liver because at this point in time your liver can handle

that and the virus. For others who are suffering from liver failure or liver

disease for another reason, it may be detrimental for them to take an NSAID

which would stress the capabilities of the liver further and cause greater

damage or progress liver failure.

I didn't intend for my thought to be this long! But do get what I mean?

MaC

To bad we don't have a pharmacist in the group!

MsTigerHawk wrote: My point is that Bayer works wonders, but if you have

cirrhosis, you probably shouldn't take it. I'd like to know what kind of pain

meds are ok to take. My gastro says Advil or Motrin or Aleve.

Colleen

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January 5, 2008

They always give me opiates, usually morphine, when I call an ambulance due to

kidney stones. It's one of the worse pains in the world, and I have them

chronically. Thankfully I haven't had any for a year now, at least not that I

know of. If they stay in the kidneys they don't cause pain.

Colleen

Bob Aragon wrote: