Digest 1e. SV: Re: Mycotoxins - are they volatile?

[Guest guest]

Sometimes it's interesting to revisit old threads. Funny how one can never know enough about these strange and quite horrible substances called mycotoxins. I found some additional information about trichothecenes which is pertinent to the question we debated a long time ago. Your argumentation seemed pretty strong and logical, but...>> Posted by: "Branislav" arealis@... eaglerock5000 > Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:07 pm (PST)> > > > Where is this Rand Corp paper/book/article/etc. from???> > >http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1018.5/MR1018.5.chap4.html> > Somewhere towards the middle of the page you will find this:> > The toxins are relatively insoluble in water but are soluble in> acetone, chloroform, DMSO, glycols, ethanol, and other organic> solvents. They have a peppery odor and negligible vapor pressure.> > /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////> > My RESPONSE:> > FYI:> > 1. The "Rand" monograph you referenced also states:> > "Trichothecenes are very resistant to environmental degradation and resist> heat below 500¡F" [i assume degrees F]> > "The toxins are stable in air and light for weeks and can withstand heat; a> temperature of 500¡F is required to destroy T-2" [i assume degrees F]> > That would mean - not volatile.> > The odor would have to be associated as an aerosol not a vapor.http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/medaspec/Ch-34electrv699.pdf(ROBERT W. WANNEMACHER, JR., PH.D.; AND STANLEY L. WIENER, M.D.-------------------------------------------------------The trichothecene mycotoxins are nonvolatile,low-molecular-weight (MW 250–550) compounds.This group of mycotoxins is relatively insoluble inwater but highly soluble in acetone, ethyl acetate,chloroform, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), ethanol,methanol, and propylene glycol.Purified trichothecenes generally have a low vapor pressure, but they do vaporize when heated in organic solvents.------------------------------------------------(my emphasis)

[Guest guest]

Airborne mycotoxins are associated with fungal biomass or particles of the substrate that have fungal growth. They are not in gas form at room temperature, thus non-volatile. Wei Tang QLabBranislav wrote: Sometimes it's interesting to revisit old threads. Funny how one can never know enough about these strange and quite horrible substances called mycotoxins. I found some additional information about trichothecenes which is pertinent to the question we debated a

long time ago. Your argumentation seemed pretty strong and logical, but...>> Posted by: "Branislav" arealis@... eaglerock5000 > Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:07 pm (PST)> > > > Where is this Rand Corp paper/book/article/etc. from???> > >http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1018.5/MR1018.5.chap4.html> > Somewhere towards the middle of the page you will find this:> > The toxins are relatively insoluble in water but are soluble in> acetone, chloroform, DMSO, glycols, ethanol, and other organic> solvents. They have a peppery odor and negligible vapor pressure.> > /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////> > My RESPONSE:> > FYI:> >

1. The "Rand" monograph you referenced also states:> > "Trichothecenes are very resistant to environmental degradation and resist> heat below 500¡F" [i assume degrees F]> > "The toxins are stable in air and light for weeks and can withstand heat; a> temperature of 500¡F is required to destroy T-2" [i assume degrees F]> > That would mean - not volatile.> > The odor would have to be associated as an aerosol not a vapor.http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/medaspec/Ch-34electrv699.pdf(ROBERT W. WANNEMACHER, JR., PH.D.; AND STANLEY L. WIENER, M.D.-------------------------------------------------------The trichothecene mycotoxins are nonvolatile,low-molecular-weight (MW 250–550) compounds.This group of mycotoxins is relatively insoluble inwater but highly soluble in acetone,

ethyl acetate,chloroform, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), ethanol,methanol, and propylene glycol.Purified trichothecenes generally have a low vapor pressure, but they do vaporize when heated in organic solvents.------------------------------------------------(my emphasis) Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ

08003Tel/Fax: Toll Free: 888-QLab-Wei ()www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

The statement that no trichothecenes are water soluble is also

inaccurate. At least one very toxic trichothecene is water soluable.

It was described in two papers i read around a year ago. Also, in an

email conversation Dr. Straus described a phenomena in which extremely

humid environments would cause a sort of migration of trichothecenes

along surfaces what seemed to me to be a sort of semi-volatile state.

I don't have the email, though, I lost a lot of stuff in a disk

crash.. it went to another email address.

A recent paper showed that most stachy spores (99%) never leave the

" condiaphores " even during sporulation. The toxins definitely do not

wholly stay with the spores, although they are created in the

" polysacccharide matrix " This was mentioned to me in several phone

conversations I have had with people who work with these molds in real

life. Eventually they seem to become a greasy sort of contaminant in

their immediate environment and the dynamics of how they travel is

still not understood in any meaningful detail at all. However,

anecdotal experiences, my own included, lead many of us to believe

that they are extremely dangerous and somewhat unpredictable in where

they show up in a moldy building.

So Wei, not in gas form is I'm sure true, but.. they aren't exactly

particulate solids either..?!

They coat things with a greasy film that makes people sick and which

absorbs through the skin fairly readily.. (or perhaps REDily.. because

it makes you turn red where it contacts you)

> Airborne mycotoxins are associated with fungal biomass or particles of the

> substrate that have fungal growth. They are not in gas form at room

> temperature, thus non-volatile.

>

> Wei Tang

> QLab

>

> Branislav wrote:

>

> Sometimes it's interesting to revisit old threads. Funny how one can never

> know enough about these strange and quite horrible substances called

> mycotoxins. I found some additional information about trichothecenes which

> is pertinent to the question we debated a long time ago. Your argumentation

> seemed pretty strong and logical, but...

>

>

>

>>

>> Posted by: " Branislav " arealis@... eaglerock5000

>> Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:07 pm (PST)

>>

>>

>> > Where is this Rand Corp paper/book/article/etc. from???

>>

>> >http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1018.5/MR1018.5.chap4.html

>>

>> Somewhere towards the middle of the page you will find this:

>>

>> The toxins are relatively insoluble in water but are soluble in

>> acetone, chloroform, DMSO, glycols, ethanol, and other organic

>> solvents. They have a peppery odor and negligible vapor pressure.

>>

>> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

>>

>> My RESPONSE:

>>

>> FYI:

>>

>> 1. The " Rand " monograph you referenced also states:

>>

>> " Trichothecenes are very resistant to environmental degradation and resist

>> heat below 500¡F " [i assume degrees F]

>>

>> " The toxins are stable in air and light for weeks and can withstand heat;

>> a

>> temperature of 500¡F is required to destroy T-2 " [i assume degrees F]

>>

>> That would mean - not volatile.

>>

>> The odor would have to be associated as an aerosol not a vapor.

>

>

>

>

> http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/medaspec/Ch-34electrv699.pdf

>

> (ROBERT W. WANNEMACHER, JR., PH.D.; AND STANLEY L. WIENER, M.D.

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------

> The trichothecene mycotoxins are nonvolatile,

> low-molecular-weight (MW 250–550) compounds.

>

> This group of mycotoxins is relatively insoluble in

> water but highly soluble in acetone, ethyl acetate,

> chloroform, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), ethanol,

> methanol, and propylene glycol.

>

>

> Purified trichothecenes generally have a low vapor

> pressure, but they do vaporize when heated in organic

> solvents.

>

> ------------------------------------------------

>

> (my emphasis)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Wei Tang, Ph.D.

> Lab Director

> QLab

> 5 Drive

> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003

> Tel/Fax:

> Toll Free: 888-QLab-Wei ()

> www.QLabUSA.com

>

[Guest guest]

"So Wei, not in gas form is I'm sure true, but.. they aren't exactly particulate solids either..?!" That's possible, but without research, we don't know how much will become "pure" tiny solids particles suspended in the air. I believe most of them are associated with other particles. They may not need to become "pure" solid before they got transferred from one material (fungal biomass) onto some other materials (furniture). Wei Tang QLab LiveSimply wrote: The statement that no trichothecenes are water soluble is alsoinaccurate. At least one very toxic trichothecene is water soluable.It was described in two papers i read around a year ago. Also, in anemail conversation Dr. Straus described a phenomena in which extremelyhumid environments would cause a sort of migration of trichothecenesalong surfaces what seemed to me to be a sort of semi-volatile state.I don't have the email, though, I lost a lot of stuff in a diskcrash.. it went to another email address.A recent paper showed that most stachy spores (99%) never leave the"condiaphores" even during sporulation. The toxins definitely do notwholly stay with the spores, although they are created in the"polysacccharide matrix" This was mentioned to me in several phoneconversations I have had with people who work with these molds in reallife. Eventually they

seem to become a greasy sort of contaminant intheir immediate environment and the dynamics of how they travel isstill not understood in any meaningful detail at all. However,anecdotal experiences, my own included, lead many of us to believethat they are extremely dangerous and somewhat unpredictable in wherethey show up in a moldy building.So Wei, not in gas form is I'm sure true, but.. they aren't exactlyparticulate solids either..?!They coat things with a greasy film that makes people sick and whichabsorbs through the skin fairly readily.. (or perhaps REDily.. becauseit makes you turn red where it contacts you)On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Wei Tang <wtangqlabusa> wrote:> Airborne mycotoxins are associated with fungal biomass or particles of the> substrate that have fungal growth. They are not in gas form at room> temperature, thus

non-volatile.>> Wei Tang> QLab>> Branislav <arealisgmail> wrote:>> Sometimes it's interesting to revisit old threads. Funny how one can never> know enough about these strange and quite horrible substances called> mycotoxins. I found some additional information about trichothecenes which> is pertinent to the question we debated a long time ago. Your argumentation> seemed pretty strong and logical, but...>>> >>>> Posted by: "Branislav" arealis@... eaglerock5000>> Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:07 pm (PST)>>>>>> > Where is this Rand Corp paper/book/article/etc. from???>>>> >http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1018.5/MR1018.5.chap4.html>>>> Somewhere towards the middle of the page you will find this:>>>> The toxins are relatively insoluble in water but are soluble in>> acetone, chloroform, DMSO, glycols, ethanol, and other organic>> solvents. They have a peppery odor and negligible vapor pressure.>>>> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////>>>> My RESPONSE:>>>> FYI:>>>> 1. The "Rand" monograph you referenced also states:>>>> "Trichothecenes are very resistant to environmental degradation and resist>> heat below 500¡F" [i assume degrees F]>>>> "The toxins are stable in air and light for

weeks and can withstand heat;>> a>> temperature of 500¡F is required to destroy T-2" [i assume degrees F]>>>> That would mean - not volatile.>>>> The odor would have to be associated as an aerosol not a vapor.>>>>> http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/medaspec/Ch-34electrv699.pdf>> (ROBERT W. WANNEMACHER, JR., PH.D.; AND STANLEY L. WIENER, M.D.>>> -------------------------------------------------------> The trichothecene mycotoxins are nonvolatile,> low-molecular-weight (MW 250–550) compounds.>> This group of mycotoxins is relatively insoluble in> water but highly soluble in acetone, ethyl acetate,> chloroform, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), ethanol,> methanol, and

propylene glycol.>>> Purified trichothecenes generally have a low vapor> pressure, but they do vaporize when heated in organic> solvents.>> ------------------------------------------------>> (my emphasis)>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wei Tang, Ph.D.> Lab Director> QLab> 5 Drive> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003> Tel/Fax: > Toll Free: 888-QLab-Wei ()> www.QLabUSA.com> Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003Tel/Fax: Toll Free: 888-QLab-Wei ()www.QLabUSA.com