Was Digest 2h. Re: Washing crawl spaces - now Sanding

[Guest guest]

Scot:

You stated:

" Food for Thought:

When you choose to sand, you are implying without doubt that the embedded

growth fragments are an exposure risk higher than the undisturbed remains of

mold on the surface. Hence, you have to go to great lengths to remove them.

Is this what the remediator explains to the client? That the hazard is so

high it must be sanded and removed to this degree? That makes it sound

pretty scary to me. Probably expensive too. But if it's that hazardous, I'm

sure we can find a way to pay for it. "

My Response:

Your presumption may not be correct.

1. I don't specify sanding because of a health risk except that I have

for allergy and for medical facilities.

2. I specify sanding to protect the building. If you leave mold, you

leave a source for potential future damage. Even if the area with the

visible mold is dry, there are some molds (e.g., dry rot) that can transport

(through their hyphal systems) moisture many feet away to permit continued

growth - slowly but surely.

3. If you sand and then you might find either a) continued significant

moisture in the wood - which would suggest the need to dry for structural or

additional mold growth, or significant wood must be removed, suggesting

significant structural damage.

As a final piece, wood strength is affected by moisture alone and over time

can permit creep.

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN 46123

www.ph2llc.com

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any

consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

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[Guest guest]

Tony,

here are MY responses after each comment; what you wrote is first, in quotes:

"2. I specify sanding to protect the building. If you leave mold, youleave a source for potential future damage. Even if the area with thevisible mold is dry, there are some molds (e.g., dry rot)"

MY Response: they still need moisture. so regardless of whether there are spores from a cleaned up growth (via washing/scrubbing) or from settled ambient sources, when you add water you get growth. It's a "chicken or egg" question. If the mold you are cleaning up today got there once, it'll get there again. So extreme cleaning using abrasive methods does not at all assure a clean future.

" that can transport(through their hyphal systems) moisture many feet away to permit continuedgrowth - slowly but surely."

MY Response: the macro fungi, Meruliporia incrassata, that is plaguing California can indeed grow macro structures, rhizomorphs, to find and transport a water source, but that is not the type of visible mold contamination that people spec to be sanded away. Indeed, poria can be controlled in place by drying it, which usually renders it dead."3. If you sand and then you might find either a) continued significantmoisture in the wood - which would suggest the need to dry for structural oradditional mold growth,"

MY Response: one can ID moisture in a structural wood component without sanding the top layer of wood, which is typically limited to only a few mm's. Sanding is not needed to discover moisture content in wood. or

"b) significant wood must be removed, suggestingsignificant structural damage."

MY Response: damage is different than contamination or visible growth. visible surface growth of water caused molds usually is very thin and limited to the very top layers, which lends itself to cleaning."As a final piece, wood strength is affected by moisture alone and over timecan permit creep."

MY Response: this is unrelated to water damage related surface mold growth.

Thanx.

Armour

Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

[Guest guest]

/Tony

Be careful when dealing with Poria

Incrassata. This is NOT mold but is a fungus. In California this comes under a termite

inspector as it is a “wood destroying organism.” If you

are not a termite guy either stay away from it or disclose that you have no

expertise in the area and be very general in commenting. Also, you will find

that drying in place is not the solution because: you have to find the rhizomorph

(could be more than one!!!!!) and CUT it to stop the moisture incursion AND you

will usually find that you have a secondary infestation of a myriad of mold because

of the wet conditions. Be careful…Be aware

Ken Duvall, CIE

California Mold Assessment

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of healthyhouse@...

Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:58

AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:Was Digest

2h. Re: Washing crawl spaces - now Sanding

Tony,

here are MY responses after each comment;

what you wrote is first, in quotes:

" 2. I specify sanding to protect the

building. If you leave mold, you

leave a source for potential future damage. Even if the area with the

visible mold is dry, there are some molds (e.g., dry rot) "

MY Response: they still need moisture. so

regardless of whether there are spores from a cleaned up growth (via

washing/scrubbing) or from settled ambient sources, when you add water you get

growth. It's a " chicken or egg " question. If the mold you are

cleaning up today got there once, it'll get there again. So extreme cleaning

using abrasive methods does not at all assure a clean future.

" that can transport

(through their hyphal systems) moisture many feet away to permit continued

growth - slowly but surely. "

MY Response: the macro fungi,

Meruliporia incrassata, that is plaguing California can indeed

grow macro structures, rhizomorphs, to find and transport a water

source, but that is not the type of visible mold contamination that

people spec to be sanded away. Indeed, poria can be controlled in place by drying

it, which usually renders it dead.

" 3. If you sand and then you might find either a) continued significant

moisture in the wood - which would suggest the need to dry for structural or

additional mold growth, "

MY Response: one can ID moisture in a

structural wood component without sanding the top layer of wood, which is

typically limited to only a few mm's. Sanding is not needed to

discover moisture content in wood. or

" significant wood must be

removed, suggesting

significant structural damage. "

MY Response: damage is different than

contamination or visible growth. visible surface growth of water caused molds

usually is very thin and limited to the very top layers, which lends itself to

cleaning.

" As a final piece, wood strength is affected by moisture alone and over

time

can permit creep. "

MY Response: this is unrelated to water

damage related surface mold growth.

Thanx.

Armour

Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL

Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.