Re: Re: Remediation delima

[Guest guest]

Jeff Owen,

Not such a good idea. In fact, this would be a really, really bad idea on multiple very basic levels:

Dead mold (and other biological contaminants) still pose a health risk. Even if your recommended fogging was successful at "killing everything" (extremely unlikely), it still does not resolve or even reduce the problems presented by the contaminants that are already present (already grown).

Anti-microbial coatings do not prevent microbial growth on things that are wet and dirty (even just very slightly dusty/dirty). To prevent growth, you have to prevent moisture. Nothing else will work.

Coating the subfloor with some type of encapsulant would not air seal the living space from the crawl space (just think of all the plumbing and electrical penetrations in addition to the gaps and cracks between all the individual building components/pieces).

I hope you're not actually providing this type service to anyone...

Please, before you get yourself or somebody else in trouble, take a look at the consensus guidelines (U.S. EPA, New York City, IICRC, ACGIH, etc.) that establish a standard of care for mold remediation. Then get some more training. Then make sure your insurance carrier covers you for this type work.

This reply is not meant to be an attack on your character - I'll presume you be a really nice guy that is trying to do the right thing. It's just that what you have recommended is not at all right.

Best wishes,

Curtis Redington, RS

Environmental Quality Specialist

City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Jeff OwenSent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:57 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Remediation delima

Short of ripping out the flooring, my recommendation is to mist (fog) the crawl space with a good antimicrobial/biocide killing everything. Follow this (make sure the surfaces are dry) with a microbial surface protectant to prevent re-growth. To keep anything from entering the occupied space, cover the topside of the subfloor with an encapsulant impregnated with a microbial surface protectant. This can be done on the sub-floor under carpeting, tile, etc. or directly on a painted floor (can be tinted). I use a couple different water-based products/brands that are able to do this. If you’re not familiar with these chemicals I’d be glad to speak with you about them and/or recommend someone in your local area who can help.

Regards,

Jeff Owen

[Guest guest]

Curtis,

Additionally, encapsulants may only be

temporary as additional moisture may cause the encapsulant to become separated from

the encapsulated materials. I see this on occasions and when I am called in

there have been occasions where new or existing moisture has migrated from

behind the encapsulated surface and the encapsulate is no longer intact.

Encapsulants should not be the first or permanent means of remediation. At best

the encapsulant may be used as a temporary means or a means to secure contaminate

during removal.

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Redington, Curtis

Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008

4:21 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Re:

Remediation delima

Jeff Owen,

Not such a good idea. In fact, this would

be a really, really bad idea on multiple very basic levels:

Dead mold (and other biological

contaminants) still pose a health risk. Even if your recommended fogging was

successful at " killing everything " (extremely unlikely), it still

does not resolve or even reduce the problems presented by the contaminants that

are already present (already grown).

Anti-microbial coatings do not prevent

microbial growth on things that are wet and dirty (even just very slightly

dusty/dirty). To prevent growth, you have to prevent moisture. Nothing

else will work.

Coating the subfloor with some type of

encapsulant would not air seal the living space from the crawl space (just

think of all the plumbing and electrical penetrations in addition to the gaps

and cracks between all the individual building components/pieces).

I hope you're not actually providing this

type service to anyone...

Please, before you get yourself or

somebody else in trouble, take a look at the consensus guidelines (U.S.

EPA, New York City,

IICRC, ACGIH, etc.) that establish a standard of care for mold remediation.

Then get some more training. Then make sure your insurance carrier covers you

for this type work.

This reply is not meant to be an attack on

your character - I'll presume you be a really nice guy that is trying to do the

right thing. It's just that what you have recommended is not at

all right.

Best wishes,

Curtis Redington, RS

Environmental Quality Specialist

City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health

Re:

Remediation delima

Short of ripping

out the flooring, my recommendation is to mist (fog) the crawl space with a

good antimicrobial/biocide killing everything. Follow this (make

sure the surfaces are dry) with a microbial surface protectant to prevent

re-growth. To keep anything from entering the occupied space, cover the

topside of the subfloor with an encapsulant impregnated with a microbial

surface protectant. This can be done on the sub-floor under carpeting,

tile, etc. or directly on a painted floor (can be tinted). I

use a couple different water-based products/brands that are able to do

this. If you’re not familiar with these chemicals I’d be glad

to speak with you about them and/or recommend someone in your local area who

can help.

Regards,

Jeff Owen

[Guest guest]

:

My apologies. In no way did I intend or imply your sexual orientation. I was responding solely to the dialog between you and EnviroBob which seemed suspiciously complimentary. Again, my apologies.

I look forward to your post, and claims that my statements were inaccurate. The dialog will be welcome, because I try real hard not to be inaccurate and I will admit to being wrong when so recognized – respectful disagreement aside. Saying this, and since the litigation between you and ThermaPure is now public record, may I post the email missive between you and Ferland Management; where you extoll the virtues of heat, state that you are using heat with good results, and have had success with heat mitigating mold, odors, and bacteria?

, I can only imagine your disgust/distaste for ThermaPure; though I do not understand the reasons behind it. Tis OK with me. I am a proponent of heating structures for many reasons; reasons which I have stated before. This said, I find it odd and feel it is very misleading to others when you make statements such as: “......anyone who is considering using ThermaPureHeat for ANYTHING - do yourself a favor...don't,” when I understand you to be a licensee of WaterOut that similarly uses heat to mitigate moisture, odors, and biologicals in buildings; albeit, I recently found-out that WaterOut has changed their marketing materials and dropped mention of odors and biologicals.....probably due to the current litigation between ThermaPure and WaterOut. , you have said numerous times, on IEQuality, that heat does not work, don’t use heat, etc., yet you continue to use heat technology and you extoll the virtues of heating structures to your clients (email noted above). Thus, I stand by my comment that this seems to be rather two-faced and not very forthcoming. You obviously have a personal biase against ThermaPure and state so publicly, but behind the scenes you continue to use heat technology to remediate buildings. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong or mislead. I have no grief with you , but I do take exception to you continuing to denigrate heat as a viable method of remediation.

I have heated many structures in many ways, and for a very long time. I have made many mistakes too. However, my successes greatly out-weight my mistakes, and I have learned from them. I have shared my experience with the folks at ThermaPure and I believe they have developed a superior system of heating buildings; I only hope that my comments have helped develop a superior system. This said, I will continue to use remediation contractors that are licensees of heat technologies other than ThermaPure, e.g., WaterOut and TempAir, because each technology has its benefits and limitations. (And Yes, EnviroBob, both TempAir and ThermaPure are capable of raising the temperature of the inside surface of an exterior hollow-cavity wall assembly, when the outside temp is 20F, to a temp that is lethal to most mesophillic organisms. Fortunately, most remediation does not take place when outside temps are 20F....So, what is your point?)

It should be obvious that I am a proponent of heat, and no, I am not joint-at-the-hip to any one technology. Moreover, I will speak-out against those who denigrate heat without merit or practicality. This should be obvious by now.

For what it is worth......

Mr. Geyer,

You are wrong on many levels. First off, I don't appreciate you

commenting on my sexual orientation - I have never met EnviroBob, and

although I'm sure he is a perfect gentleman, I would not like to

share a bed with him nor would I pat his bum.

After I digest the incredibly inaccurate statements and claims in

your recent remarks about me, ThermaPureHeat, and WaterOut, I will

post my comments. Until then, anyone who is considering using

ThermaPureHeat for ANYTHING - do yourself a favor...don't. The truth

will come out soon enough. 2008 is going to be a great year for this

industry.

[Guest guest]

Mr. Geyer,

You remind me of Mr. Rosen who would make unfounded

and unscientific blanket statements. It appears you continue to boast of other

hardships yet ignore some day (I hope not) you too may find yourself in similar

conditions. Its your blanket statements surrounding heat that I disagree with. I

do have a few simple questions:

Are

there times when or where heat as offered by Thermapure is not recommended;

And

are you aware of any condition when heat as offered by Thermapure did not

work as expected; and/or

Are

you aware that heat affects ERH as related to building materials;

If

heat does affect ERH as associated with building materials, how does it

affect the materials?

Does

the elevated heat dry the materials?

If

so, does the drying of the materials affect the materials in any way?

If

so, how?

Are

you claiming that the heat removes all allergenic properties of the mold

within an enclosed wall space?

Are

you claiming that you are able to guarantee that you can achieve heating

the space and associated building materials within a wall and/or ceiling

cavity without opening the cavity regardless of external temperatures buy bringing

the room temperature up to either 140 or 160 degrees?

Are

there any by products that require monitoring?

i.

If so,

what are they?

If

you conducted this method within a newly constructed building would you

void any warrantees, i.e. doors, windows, carpeting, etc.?

Has

ThermaPure changed its claims as to what the ThermaPure process can

actually do?

As for your comments surrounding

orientation, please keep them to yourself. Just because two people who have not

met yet share similar concerns on this list over the Thermapure system is not

an indication of sexual orientation. Please keep in mind, such statements

and like mindedness between you and Thermapure, based you’re your earlier

post, would reflect a similar relationship between you and the owner of

ThermaPure. Therefore by your own words you set a perception between you and

ThermaPure.

You also present that you have dried

numerous buildings yet further state: …. I have heated

many structures in many ways, and for a very long time. Please tell me how you have accomplished so much in such a

few years as compared to the extent of experience you continue to claim. I will add drying all of these buildings to your CV. You

also state: I try real hard not to be inaccurate and I will

admit to being wrong when so recognized … Please try a bit harder. Are you aware there are those who

are no longer on this list due to your exaggerations? If anyone were to ever

conduct a search and use the words “I have” under Geyer you would be amazed of how much

you have accomplished within the short time you have been on this earth. I can

not image if you were to begin to exaggerate even a bit surrounding your experience.

Please answer the above questions or

please do not continue to offer unfounded - unscientific blanketed statements on

this list.

As for what it is worth, I hope your

replies will be worth reading and not more venom against those on this list who

simply disagree with you.

EnviroBob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008

1:24 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Remediation delima

:

My apologies. In no way did I intend or imply your sexual orientation.

I was responding solely to the dialog between you and EnviroBob which

seemed suspiciously complimentary. Again, my apologies.

I look forward to your post, and claims that my statements were inaccurate.

The dialog will be welcome, because I try real hard not to be inaccurate

and I will admit to being wrong when so recognized – respectful

disagreement aside. Saying this, and since the litigation between you and

ThermaPure is now public record, may I post the email missive between you and

Ferland Management; where you extoll the virtues of heat, state that you are

using heat with good results, and have had success with heat mitigating mold,

odors, and bacteria?

, I can only imagine your disgust/distaste for ThermaPure; though I do not

understand the reasons behind it. Tis OK with me. I am a proponent

of heating structures for many reasons; reasons which I have stated before.

This said, I find it odd and feel it is very misleading to others when

you make statements such as: “......anyone who is considering using

ThermaPureHeat for ANYTHING - do yourself a favor...don't,” when I

understand you to be a licensee of WaterOut that similarly uses heat to

mitigate moisture, odors, and biologicals in buildings; albeit, I recently

found-out that WaterOut has changed their marketing materials and dropped

mention of odors and biologicals.....probably due to the current

litigation between ThermaPure and WaterOut. , you have said

numerous times, on IEQuality, that heat does not work, don’t use heat,

etc., yet you continue to use heat technology and you extoll the virtues of

heating structures to your clients (email noted above). Thus, I stand by

my comment that this seems to be rather two-faced and not very forthcoming.

You obviously have a personal biase against ThermaPure and state so

publicly, but behind the scenes you continue to use heat technology to

remediate buildings. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong or mislead. I

have no grief with you , but I do take exception to you continuing to

denigrate heat as a viable method of remediation.

I have heated many structures in many ways, and for a very long time. I

have made many mistakes too. However, my successes greatly out-weight my

mistakes, and I have learned from them. I have shared my experience with

the folks at ThermaPure and I believe they have developed a superior system of

heating buildings; I only hope that my comments have helped develop a superior

system. This said, I will continue to use remediation contractors that

are licensees of heat technologies other than ThermaPure, e.g., WaterOut and

TempAir, because each technology has its benefits and limitations. (And

Yes, EnviroBob, both TempAir and ThermaPure are capable of raising the

temperature of the inside surface of an exterior hollow-cavity wall assembly,

when the outside temp is 20F, to a temp that is lethal to most mesophillic

organisms. Fortunately, most remediation does not take place when outside

temps are 20F....So, what is your point?)

It should be obvious that I am a proponent of heat, and no, I am not

joint-at-the-hip to any one technology. Moreover, I will speak-out

against those who denigrate heat without merit or practicality.

This should be obvious by now.

For what it is worth......

On 1/10/08 6:12 AM, " " <erocker13> wrote:

Mr. Geyer,

You are wrong on many levels. First off, I don't appreciate you

commenting on my sexual orientation - I have never met EnviroBob, and

although I'm sure he is a perfect gentleman, I would not like to

share a bed with him nor would I pat his bum.

After I digest the incredibly inaccurate statements and claims in

your recent remarks about me, ThermaPureHeat, and WaterOut, I will

post my comments. Until then, anyone who is considering using

ThermaPureHeat for ANYTHING - do yourself a favor...don't. The truth

will come out soon enough. 2008 is going to be a great year for this

industry.