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Re: Mandi: EFT/ nonverbal

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Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's different for

me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as an adult

than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I have

language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of difficulty with

typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with people I

have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with my

husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or family for

more than 2 years).

Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness for the

loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound sense that

I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to set that

straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand and

communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain, very

occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not mechanical

issues which most limit me.

Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd like

more.

Jacqui

> Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do something

for Sam

> but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I did tap

Sam after I

> replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap my head

around

> feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was mad

doing it but was

> super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

>

> _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com)

>

> Mandi x

>

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Hi Jacqui

I hope you don't mind me butting in. My son lost all his speech

between ages 3 and 4 and a bit, having been really chatty. He started

regaining it two years ago - but he is still single words. He simply

can't construct a sentence and we think it's much better and more

useful to have a wide vocabulary of single words than to try too hard

for sentences. He uses words to tell us what he wants - that's a big

step. What we find is that he can spontaneously ask for things but

finds it really hard to access the right word " on demand " . It's a bit

like a badly tuned radio - sometimes he'll come out with a whole

phrase but only spontaneously. And then he seems as surprised as we

do. Is that how you find it? He gets very sad about his lack of

ability to ask for things. It's what made me so mad about the

campaign last year saying " this boy chooses not to speak " because that

simply isn't my experience with Tom. He loves speaking, he beams with

pride when he says something and people respond, he even makes sort of

jokes now. Are there circumstances where you find it easier or harder

to access language?

Steph

>

> Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

>

> As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's different for

> me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as an adult

> than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I have

> language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of difficulty with

> typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with people I

> have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with my

> husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or family for

> more than 2 years).

>

> Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness for the

> loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound sense that

> I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

> frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to set that

> straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand and

> communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain, very

> occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not mechanical

> issues which most limit me.

>

> Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd like

> more.

>

> Jacqui

>

>

> > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do something

> for Sam

> > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I did tap

> Sam after I

> > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap my head

> around

> > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was mad

> doing it but was

> > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> >

> > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com)

> >

> > Mandi x

> >

>

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As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's different for me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as an adult than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I have language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of difficulty with typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with people I have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with my husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or family for more than 2 years).Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness for the loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound sense that I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to set that straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand and communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain, very occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not mechanical issues which most limit me.

>>Jacqui thank you soooo much for sharing, this helps a lot and the also posts where you replied to others on the same subject. Given me lots to think about, planning to think at weekend inbetwen HANDLE sessions!

Mandi x

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Hi Steph,

Yeah, I recognise what you're saying about Tom. Accessing words on

demand is harder, it's like I just have to let it happen.

Sometimes... no pretty often when trying to access a word that's not

coming, I'll have a shape or a feeling for what I want to say and I

know when I get to the point when I'm trying to put a name to the

word shape, that I should stop immediately and forget about it. For

me trying to force it never works. It *is* like trying to tune a

radio that can't receive the channel.

If it's quiet outside I find conversation easier there than inside.

I'm generally less symptomatic outside but I think there's also less

echo or rebound of sound.

Also speaking on my own terms much easier than conversation. If it's

a conversation I have to process what someone says, process body

language, understand it all and come up with a response. Similarly

with routine conversations. So I can ask for a bus ticket, or thank

the postie for a parcel, but if they ask me anything I'm usually done

for... unless i just say yes and hope for the best!

Though it's not necessarily easy I can often coverse a bit with my

husband. If we were out somewhere I would usually ensure I'm in a

corner and that all the sound came from one direction. Simililarly

at home if there's a tap running or a radio on then I won't attempt

to speak or listen until they are off.

Inside places that are unfamiliar are trickier,mostly impossible,

becuase I'm trying to understand and process my surroundings,

visually and aurally, but also there can be different smells or

chemicals that really throw me.

Talking about my emotions or feelings, or anything that's intuative

or stream of consciousness is easier too. It feels like it comes

from a less affected part of my brain.

I guess the short answer is that the more non-word items there are to

process or screen out, the trickier words and conversation are. Even

writing is much harder than typing.

It's hard for me to accept that most nonverbal people choose not to

speak. It seems a bizarre idea rooted in ignorance. Not that I'm

opinionated or anything! I'm sure some people are happier not to

speak, but to me it seems the most effective way or expressing who we

are, of choosing what makes us happy and fulfilled, of spending time

and communicating with those we love, and so much more. I'm a very

physical person, I love to be active but if I thought it would get

my 'true voice' back I'd trade in a couple of limbs in flash-

wouldn't think twice.

I really admire the parents here, who really try to understand what

might be happening to their children, keep working to improve their

children's health and bring out more of their potential. I'm only

too aware that if I were a child in an average family I would likely

be drugged up to the eyeballs. It's a sobering thought.

Diatribe over :-)

Jacqui

> >

> > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> >

> > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's different

for

> > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as an

adult

> > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I

have

> > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of difficulty

with

> > typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with

people I

> > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with my

> > husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or family

for

> > more than 2 years).

> >

> > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness for

the

> > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound sense

that

> > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

> > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to set

that

> > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand and

> > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain, very

> > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not

mechanical

> > issues which most limit me.

> >

> > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd like

> > more.

> >

> > Jacqui

> >

> >

> > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do

something

> > for Sam

> > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I did

tap

> > Sam after I

> > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap my

head

> > around

> > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was mad

> > doing it but was

> > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > >

> > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com)

> > >

> > > Mandi x

> > >

> >

>

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I really appreciate this. I have conversations with TOm where he

knows I'm not expecting an answer but I'm trying to make clear that I

appreciate his opinion. Sometimes it works sometimes not. Sometimes

he is just like a friendly silent but appreciative presence. Which is

cool but it means he gets my opinions not his. He LOVES to use his

voice outdoors, perhaps that's another reason why summer is so much

more successful in many households with autism. He will shout and

roar outdoors but speak in a very low tone indoors, low in note as

well as volume, very deep voice for a 10 year old!!

He has a good SALT at school - she is all for providing the right

environment and letting it flow when it's ready. I wish so much he

would use hte computer, his fine motor is not great. It would really

help him, to tell us how he feels, tell us off, what he wants

precisely and so on. He's been without his skills now for longer than

he was with them. By some margin. Yet when language pops out

sometimes it's from when he was 2. Scripting the NOrth west weather

jingle (Granada Weather!) when we've lived away from that TV provider

since 2001, for example.

Steph x

> > >

> > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > >

> > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's different

> for

> > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as an

> adult

> > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I

> have

> > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of difficulty

> with

> > > typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with

> people I

> > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with my

> > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or family

> for

> > > more than 2 years).

> > >

> > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness for

> the

> > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound sense

> that

> > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

> > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to set

> that

> > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand and

> > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain, very

> > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not

> mechanical

> > > issues which most limit me.

> > >

> > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd like

> > > more.

> > >

> > > Jacqui

> > >

> > >

> > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do

> something

> > > for Sam

> > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I did

> tap

> > > Sam after I

> > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap my

> head

> > > around

> > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was mad

> > > doing it but was

> > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > >

> > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com)

> > > >

> > > > Mandi x

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Steph, if i were your child everything you're doing re verbal

communication sounds great- very supportive, helpful and

encouraging. The picture you gave me in the previous post of Tom

now being able to almost tell jokes is powerful. How wonderful that

he is beginning to express himself that way.

I understand the low volume and tone thing too. And motor function,

especially of my legs is usually the first casuality of too much

brain work.... well of all sorts.

One thing verbal thing I can do pretty easily is to sing. Hmmm.. not

that I have a great singing voice, more that songs I love give me

great pleasure and singing those often happens without me thinking

about it and is uplifting. Guess I sing songs that chime with some

part of me, so singing them is self expression and affirming??

Anyway, so pleased sharing my experiences maybe triggered a few

thoughts for you and Mandi, it's a pleasure.

Jacqui

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > >

> > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's

different

> > for

> > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as

an

> > adult

> > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I

> > have

> > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of

difficulty

> > with

> > > > typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with

> > people I

> > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with

my

> > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or

family

> > for

> > > > more than 2 years).

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness

for

> > the

> > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound

sense

> > that

> > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

> > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to

set

> > that

> > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand

and

> > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain,

very

> > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not

> > mechanical

> > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > >

> > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd

like

> > > > more.

> > > >

> > > > Jacqui

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do

> > something

> > > > for Sam

> > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I

did

> > tap

> > > > Sam after I

> > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap

my

> > head

> > > > around

> > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was

mad

> > > > doing it but was

> > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > >

> > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com)

> > > > >

> > > > > Mandi x

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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And I imagine that speech and conversation require very different brain

connections too. Tom sings and sings and sings. He talks all day too but

mainly big chunks of video scripts. His conversation is at a baby,

almost pre-speech level.

Sara x

Eva family wrote:

>

> I think singing comes from a different part of the brain from speech.

> Also it's not expected to make sense ie cause effects

> Sally

>

> fideaueater wrote:

> >

> > Steph, if i were your child everything you're doing re verbal

> > communication sounds great- very supportive, helpful and

> > encouraging. The picture you gave me in the previous post of Tom

> > now being able to almost tell jokes is powerful. How wonderful that

> > he is beginning to express himself that way.

> >

> > I understand the low volume and tone thing too. And motor function,

> > especially of my legs is usually the first casuality of too much

> > brain work.... well of all sorts.

> >

> > One thing verbal thing I can do pretty easily is to sing. Hmmm.. not

> > that I have a great singing voice, more that songs I love give me

> > great pleasure and singing those often happens without me thinking

> > about it and is uplifting. Guess I sing songs that chime with some

> > part of me, so singing them is self expression and affirming??

> >

> > Anyway, so pleased sharing my experiences maybe triggered a few

> > thoughts for you and Mandi, it's a pleasure.

> >

> > Jacqui

> >

> >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's

> > different

> > > > for

> > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as

> > an

> > > > adult

> > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I

> > > > have

> > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of

> > difficulty

> > > > with

> > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with

> > > > people I

> > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with

> > my

> > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or

> > family

> > > > for

> > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness

> > for

> > > > the

> > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound

> > sense

> > > > that

> > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

> > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to

> > set

> > > > that

> > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand

> > and

> > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain,

> > very

> > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not

> > > > mechanical

> > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd

> > like

> > > > > > more.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do

> > > > something

> > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I

> > did

> > > > tap

> > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap

> > my

> > > > head

> > > > > > around

> > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was

> > mad

> > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release Date:

> 24/09/2008 18:51

> >

> >

>

>

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That's just like Edith. Does he sing in tune? Edith has a lovely voice

and turned out to enjoy playing music \(and listening to it which is now

one of her favourite self-occupying things to do)

Sally

Sara Moroza- wrote:

>

> And I imagine that speech and conversation require very different brain

> connections too. Tom sings and sings and sings. He talks all day too but

> mainly big chunks of video scripts. His conversation is at a baby,

> almost pre-speech level.

> Sara x

>

> Eva family wrote:

> >

> > I think singing comes from a different part of the brain from speech.

> > Also it's not expected to make sense ie cause effects

> > Sally

> >

> > fideaueater wrote:

> > >

> > > Steph, if i were your child everything you're doing re verbal

> > > communication sounds great- very supportive, helpful and

> > > encouraging. The picture you gave me in the previous post of Tom

> > > now being able to almost tell jokes is powerful. How wonderful that

> > > he is beginning to express himself that way.

> > >

> > > I understand the low volume and tone thing too. And motor function,

> > > especially of my legs is usually the first casuality of too much

> > > brain work.... well of all sorts.

> > >

> > > One thing verbal thing I can do pretty easily is to sing. Hmmm.. not

> > > that I have a great singing voice, more that songs I love give me

> > > great pleasure and singing those often happens without me thinking

> > > about it and is uplifting. Guess I sing songs that chime with some

> > > part of me, so singing them is self expression and affirming??

> > >

> > > Anyway, so pleased sharing my experiences maybe triggered a few

> > > thoughts for you and Mandi, it's a pleasure.

> > >

> > > Jacqui

> > >

> > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's

> > > different

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as

> > > an

> > > > > adult

> > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of

> > > difficulty

> > > > > with

> > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with

> > > > > people I

> > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with

> > > my

> > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or

> > > family

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness

> > > for

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound

> > > sense

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so sometimes

> > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to

> > > set

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand

> > > and

> > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain,

> > > very

> > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not

> > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd

> > > like

> > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do

> > > > > something

> > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I

> > > did

> > > > > tap

> > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap

> > > my

> > > > > head

> > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was

> > > mad

> > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release Date:

> > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release Date: 25/09/2008

07:05

>

>

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yes, he does. I'll buy him a piano one of these days.

Sara x

Eva family wrote:

>

> That's just like Edith. Does he sing in tune? Edith has a lovely voice

> and turned out to enjoy playing music \(and listening to it which is now

> one of her favourite self-occupying things to do)

> Sally

>

> Sara Moroza- wrote:

> >

> > And I imagine that speech and conversation require very different brain

> > connections too. Tom sings and sings and sings. He talks all day too but

> > mainly big chunks of video scripts. His conversation is at a baby,

> > almost pre-speech level.

> > Sara x

> >

> > Eva family wrote:

> > >

> > > I think singing comes from a different part of the brain from speech.

> > > Also it's not expected to make sense ie cause effects

> > > Sally

> > >

> > > fideaueater wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Steph, if i were your child everything you're doing re verbal

> > > > communication sounds great- very supportive, helpful and

> > > > encouraging. The picture you gave me in the previous post of Tom

> > > > now being able to almost tell jokes is powerful. How wonderful that

> > > > he is beginning to express himself that way.

> > > >

> > > > I understand the low volume and tone thing too. And motor function,

> > > > especially of my legs is usually the first casuality of too much

> > > > brain work.... well of all sorts.

> > > >

> > > > One thing verbal thing I can do pretty easily is to sing. Hmmm.. not

> > > > that I have a great singing voice, more that songs I love give me

> > > > great pleasure and singing those often happens without me thinking

> > > > about it and is uplifting. Guess I sing songs that chime with some

> > > > part of me, so singing them is self expression and affirming??

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, so pleased sharing my experiences maybe triggered a few

> > > > thoughts for you and Mandi, it's a pleasure.

> > > >

> > > > Jacqui

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess it's

> > > > different

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing skills as

> > > > an

> > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides which I

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of

> > > > difficulty

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face conversation with

> > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other than with

> > > > my

> > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with friends or

> > > > family

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are sadness

> > > > for

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a profound

> > > > sense

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so

> sometimes

> > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not able to

> > > > set

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to understand

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain pain,

> > > > very

> > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's that not

> > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout if you'd

> > > > like

> > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I can do

> > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that one. I

> > > > did

> > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I can wrap

> > > > my

> > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought I was

> > > > mad

> > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release Date:

> > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release Date:

> 25/09/2008 07:05

> >

> >

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-Katy is a like this ,she enjoys singing and her favourite pass time

is listening to CD's and trying to dance on her High School Musical

dance mat.She is learning to play the guitar,we are having to colour

code the music for her but her concentration when playing is very

impressive.

Sharon.

-- In Autism-Biomedical-Europe , Eva family

wrote:

>

> That's just like Edith. Does he sing in tune? Edith has a lovely

voice

> and turned out to enjoy playing music \(and listening to it which

is now

> one of her favourite self-occupying things to do)

> Sally

>

> Sara Moroza- wrote:

> >

> > And I imagine that speech and conversation require very different

brain

> > connections too. Tom sings and sings and sings. He talks all day

too but

> > mainly big chunks of video scripts. His conversation is at a baby,

> > almost pre-speech level.

> > Sara x

> >

> > Eva family wrote:

> > >

> > > I think singing comes from a different part of the brain from

speech.

> > > Also it's not expected to make sense ie cause effects

> > > Sally

> > >

> > > fideaueater wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Steph, if i were your child everything you're doing re verbal

> > > > communication sounds great- very supportive, helpful and

> > > > encouraging. The picture you gave me in the previous post of

Tom

> > > > now being able to almost tell jokes is powerful. How

wonderful that

> > > > he is beginning to express himself that way.

> > > >

> > > > I understand the low volume and tone thing too. And motor

function,

> > > > especially of my legs is usually the first casuality of too

much

> > > > brain work.... well of all sorts.

> > > >

> > > > One thing verbal thing I can do pretty easily is to sing.

Hmmm.. not

> > > > that I have a great singing voice, more that songs I love

give me

> > > > great pleasure and singing those often happens without me

thinking

> > > > about it and is uplifting. Guess I sing songs that chime with

some

> > > > part of me, so singing them is self expression and affirming??

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, so pleased sharing my experiences maybe triggered a

few

> > > > thoughts for you and Mandi, it's a pleasure.

> > > >

> > > > Jacqui

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess

it's

> > > > different

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing

skills as

> > > > an

> > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides

which I

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of

> > > > difficulty

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

conversation with

> > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other

than with

> > > > my

> > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

friends or

> > > > family

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are

sadness

> > > > for

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

profound

> > > > sense

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so

sometimes

> > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not

able to

> > > > set

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

understand

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain

pain,

> > > > very

> > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's

that not

> > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout

if you'd

> > > > like

> > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I

can do

> > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that

one. I

> > > > did

> > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I

can wrap

> > > > my

> > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought

I was

> > > > mad

> > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> > <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release

Date:

> > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release Date:

25/09/2008 07:05

> >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know the " Man who Mistook his Wife for a hat " series of brain-damage

oddities. I think that there is something like that with music and words

-- that they come from different parts of the brain. Edith's recorder

teacher says " music is her language " and claims to communicate with her

musically. Words are certainly NOT her language. There is a certain

amount on the Web about perfect pitch and savant skills associated with

autism. Edith is no savant but she is interested in music in a way that

she is not interested in words. Maybe because you don't do anything with

music except play with it. That is also how she treats words

Sally

Sharon wrote:

>

> -Katy is a like this ,she enjoys singing and her favourite pass time

> is listening to CD's and trying to dance on her High School Musical

> dance mat.She is learning to play the guitar,we are having to colour

> code the music for her but her concentration when playing is very

> impressive.

>

> Sharon.

>

> -- In Autism-Biomedical-Europe

> <mailto:Autism-Biomedical-Europe%40yahoogroups.com>, Eva family

> wrote:

> >

> > That's just like Edith. Does he sing in tune? Edith has a lovely

> voice

> > and turned out to enjoy playing music \(and listening to it which

> is now

> > one of her favourite self-occupying things to do)

> > Sally

> >

> > Sara Moroza- wrote:

> > >

> > > And I imagine that speech and conversation require very different

> brain

> > > connections too. Tom sings and sings and sings. He talks all day

> too but

> > > mainly big chunks of video scripts. His conversation is at a baby,

> > > almost pre-speech level.

> > > Sara x

> > >

> > > Eva family wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I think singing comes from a different part of the brain from

> speech.

> > > > Also it's not expected to make sense ie cause effects

> > > > Sally

> > > >

> > > > fideaueater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Steph, if i were your child everything you're doing re verbal

> > > > > communication sounds great- very supportive, helpful and

> > > > > encouraging. The picture you gave me in the previous post of

> Tom

> > > > > now being able to almost tell jokes is powerful. How

> wonderful that

> > > > > he is beginning to express himself that way.

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand the low volume and tone thing too. And motor

> function,

> > > > > especially of my legs is usually the first casuality of too

> much

> > > > > brain work.... well of all sorts.

> > > > >

> > > > > One thing verbal thing I can do pretty easily is to sing.

> Hmmm.. not

> > > > > that I have a great singing voice, more that songs I love

> give me

> > > > > great pleasure and singing those often happens without me

> thinking

> > > > > about it and is uplifting. Guess I sing songs that chime with

> some

> > > > > part of me, so singing them is self expression and affirming??

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, so pleased sharing my experiences maybe triggered a

> few

> > > > > thoughts for you and Mandi, it's a pleasure.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jacqui

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess

> it's

> > > > > different

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing

> skills as

> > > > > an

> > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler. Besides

> which I

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy of

> > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> conversation with

> > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other

> than with

> > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> friends or

> > > > > family

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are

> sadness

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> profound

> > > > > sense

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so

> sometimes

> > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not

> able to

> > > > > set

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> understand

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute brain

> pain,

> > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's

> that not

> > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout

> if you'd

> > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so I

> can do

> > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on that

> one. I

> > > > > did

> > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I

> can wrap

> > > > > my

> > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he thought

> I was

> > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release

> Date:

> > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> ------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release Date:

> 25/09/2008 07:05

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date: 25/09/2008

19:23

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Langauge and using it is definitely most difficult for Katy (mine

aswell i feel).She has good motor skills ,learnt to ride a bike

early,rollerblading for miles with her Dad,she was the best in her

class at ice skating,only took her a few minutes to be cruising along

watching and copying more advanced skaters.She is a pleasure to watch

at this !

She takes in so much from watching and copying.

Fine motor skills are also quite good.

Also she shows she is bright in the way she is so very sneaky ay

getting food she is not allowed,she runs rings around most people.

Sharon.

Sharon

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess

> > it's

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing

> > skills as

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

Besides

> > which I

> > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a

heiracrchy of

> > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> > conversation with

> > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other

> > than with

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> > friends or

> > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are

> > sadness

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> > profound

> > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am,

so

> > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and

not

> > able to

> > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> > understand

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

brain

> > pain,

> > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's

> > that not

> > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but

shout

> > if you'd

> > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next

so I

> > can do

> > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

that

> > one. I

> > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I

> > can wrap

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

thought

> > I was

> > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> > <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> > <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release

> > Date:

> > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > ------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release

Date:

> > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date:

25/09/2008 19:23

> >

> >

>

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Share on other sites

There is no brain damage in autism. If there is brain damage in some

children then that means an additional diagnosis. The brain

connections are lacking so the different parts of the brain work but

not in unison. A great amount of connectivity is required for

conversation. This is real RDI stuff.

Sara

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd

guess

> > > it's

> > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and

processing

> > > skills as

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

> Besides

> > > which I

> > > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a

> heiracrchy of

> > > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> > > conversation with

> > > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest

(other

> > > than with

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> > > friends or

> > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings

are

> > > sadness

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> > > profound

> > > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I

am,

> so

> > > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and

> not

> > > able to

> > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> > > understand

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

> brain

> > > pain,

> > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and

it's

> > > that not

> > > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but

> shout

> > > if you'd

> > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next

> so I

> > > can do

> > > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

> that

> > > one. I

> > > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not

sure I

> > > can wrap

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

> thought

> > > I was

> > > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> > > <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------

--

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

<http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

<http://www.avg.com

> > > <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 -

Release

> > > Date:

> > > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > ------

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release

> Date:

> > > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------

--

> ------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date:

> 25/09/2008 19:23

> > >

> > >

> >

>

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Share on other sites

Yes, that's very like Edith -- trampolining was a big hit -- you've

probably tried that too?

Edith's quite good at basic emotions -- happy, cross etc. -- body

language, " atmospheres " .

She talks but 99% nonsense

xx Sally

Sharon wrote:

>

> Langauge and using it is definitely most difficult for Katy (mine

> aswell i feel).She has good motor skills ,learnt to ride a bike

> early,rollerblading for miles with her Dad,she was the best in her

> class at ice skating,only took her a few minutes to be cruising along

> watching and copying more advanced skaters.She is a pleasure to watch

> at this !

> She takes in so much from watching and copying.

> Fine motor skills are also quite good.

> Also she shows she is bright in the way she is so very sneaky ay

> getting food she is not allowed,she runs rings around most people.

>

> Sharon.

>

> Sharon

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess

> > > it's

> > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing

> > > skills as

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

> Besides

> > > which I

> > > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a

> heiracrchy of

> > > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> > > conversation with

> > > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other

> > > than with

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> > > friends or

> > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are

> > > sadness

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> > > profound

> > > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am,

> so

> > > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and

> not

> > > able to

> > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> > > understand

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

> brain

> > > pain,

> > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's

> > > that not

> > > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but

> shout

> > > if you'd

> > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next

> so I

> > > can do

> > > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

> that

> > > one. I

> > > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I

> > > can wrap

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

> thought

> > > I was

> > > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>>>

> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release

> > > Date:

> > > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > ------

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release

> Date:

> > > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> ------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date:

> 25/09/2008 19:23

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date: 25/09/2008

19:23

>

>

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Share on other sites

Hi there butting in here but I find this and other things all so

amazing really. (8yrs) is non verbal but 'sings' constantly,

even in his sleep. My pianist husband says he has perfect pitch. He

really does sound like a little choir boy at times.

He finds it v comforting I think.

Helen x

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess

it's

> > > > > different

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing

skills as

> > > > > an

> > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

Besides which I

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy

of

> > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

conversation with

> > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other

than with

> > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

friends or

> > > > > family

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are

sadness

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

profound

> > > > > sense

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so

> > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not

able to

> > > > > set

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

understand

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

brain pain,

> > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's

that not

> > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout

if you'd

> > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so

I can do

> > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

that one. I

> > > > > did

> > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I

can wrap

> > > > > my

> > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

thought I was

> > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> > <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> > <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release

Date:

> > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release Date:

> > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

is 11 now, and we are getting concerned we may never hear him speak.

Biomed gosh don't know how long, but around the same time as Mandi did with Sam.

Biomed has helped loads with his general health which was absolutely dire, his behaviours, loads of stuff really, his receptive language is excellent, he never understood tiddly squat in the early years, in many ways he is a lot higher functioning than he used to be, but language is just completely stuck.

Without a shadow of doubt the least improved area of his life, by some margin.

I'm convinced it's in there, but am becoming more convinced the speech therapy has been woefully inadequate. It's like we have healed him to the point of total understanding but now need the correct therapy to move on.

Anyone know anything about PROMPT or oromotor?

Vicky

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Edith used to sing as she now talks -- a stream of consciousness where

one bit of tune would remind her of another and she would switch in mid

line to another song and then switch again, and again.

Sally

helenco68 wrote:

>

> Hi Sally

>

> Chime bars!! What a great idea. Hadn't thought of that. He has

> endless musical toys and books which he adores. He has music therapy

> which is v 'sonrisy' where you follow the lead of the child all the

> time looking for positive interaction. He's great at repeating drum

> rhythms. He tootles about on the piano at home but we can't keep him

> still enough for long enough to engage more than a few seconds at a

> time. Its like someone else said, its almost as if words are

> unimportant to him as he has such a huge repertoire of notes in his

> head which to him mean everything.

>

> Helen xx

>

> Hi

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd

> guess

> > > it's

> > > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and

> processing

> > > skills as

> > > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

> > > Besides which I

> > > > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a

> heiracrchy

> > > of

> > > > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> > > conversation with

> > > > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest

> (other

> > > than with

> > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> > > friends or

> > > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings

> are

> > > sadness

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> > > profound

> > > > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I

> am, so

> > > > > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and

> not

> > > able to

> > > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> > > understand

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

> > > brain pain,

> > > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and

> it's

> > > that not

> > > > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but

> shout

> > > if you'd

> > > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next

> so

> > > I can do

> > > > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

> > > that one. I

> > > > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not

> sure I

> > > can wrap

> > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

> > > thought I was

> > > > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>>

> > > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>>>

> > > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>>>

> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 -

> Release

> > > Date:

> > > > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release

> Date:

> > > > > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> ------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date:

> 25/09/2008 19:23

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date: 25/09/2008

19:23

>

>

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I think it's only in last last 3 or 4 years Katy has enjoyed music (

She's now 12yrs old ) She was non verbal up to the age of about 6

yrs ,then started making some sounds.When she was younger she

couldn't tolerate any music on,I would have to turn everything off if

she was home,even the television.

At about 9 yrs she had a whistle stimm,which was pitch perfect.I

can't say when things really changed,but she has been in the school

choir for a couple of years,sometimes she joins in,other times she

just moves to the music with a huge smile on her face.

Sharon.

>

> my son (Nico) is non-verbal, he doesn't sing at all. The only

thing is that he repeats words from time to time like bye-bye or

ball or video (but it is just repeating after us).

> Begona

>

>

>

> Re: Re: Mandi: EFT/ nonverbal

>

>

> I'm following this thread with interest, wonder though how many on

here have completely non verbal kids, not even singing.

> I think Mandi is one, and . Any others?

>

> Any others?

> Vicky

>

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Thanks Zoe, it's not that I don't want to do RDI or anything else really, but we can only run to so much financially.

I have trawled the internet to see if there is anything we could do by ourselves at home, but very little is being advised for free.

When was dx at less than 2yrs old we had to make choices of biomedical interventions such as they were back then or ABA.

was sick so biomedical it was, and in anycase he couldn't have absorbed anything back then with his health as it was.

He has been well physically for some time now but finances are worse than ever so all he gets is what I can come up with myself.

Ultimately we have to make a decision to risk all in the hope that he can significantly improve with therapy or hold tight and make decisions regarding his future further down the line.

It may sound kind of mercenary but I never forget all the advice 2 years ago regarding tribunal, solicitors etc, only way to go, etc and we ended up 20k plus out of pocket and lost.

So my heart says put everything on the line for whatever therapy may make a difference and my head says both kids could end up losing the roof over their heads with no security for their future and not significantly improved in their functioning.

Course in an ideal world all this would be available as standard for our kids given the amount of kids who have made significant gains, how many have flourished with TEAACH and Risperidone but that is what we are expected to put our faith in, sigh.

Vicky

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I had a quiet row with a horrible social worker while Edith was in the

room. Edith climbed onto my lap and lay sideways like a baby and cried.

(She's 16 and bigger than me). I think she was stressed by the (very

bad) atmosphere

xx Sally

Sharon wrote:

>

> -Yes same with Katy.Loves trampolining.

>

> She is very intuitive if anyone is upset,runs straight over to upset

> family members to give them a huge,saying All better, and a kiss.

> (sorry my speech mark and pound sign keys don't work ).Then she tries

> to make your mouth smile and say's be happy.Also becomes stressed if

> people are annoyed with her or others around her.

>

> Sharon.x

>

> -- In Autism-Biomedical-Europe

> <mailto:Autism-Biomedical-Europe%40yahoogroups.com>, Eva family

> wrote:

> >

> > Yes, that's very like Edith -- trampolining was a big hit -- you've

> > probably tried that too?

> >

> > Edith's quite good at basic emotions -- happy, cross etc. -- body

> > language, " atmospheres " .

> >

> > She talks but 99% nonsense

> >

> > xx Sally

> >

> > Sharon wrote:

> > >

> > > Langauge and using it is definitely most difficult for Katy (mine

> > > aswell i feel).She has good motor skills ,learnt to ride a bike

> > > early,rollerblading for miles with her Dad,she was the best in her

> > > class at ice skating,only took her a few minutes to be cruising

> along

> > > watching and copying more advanced skaters.She is a pleasure to

> watch

> > > at this !

> > > She takes in so much from watching and copying.

> > > Fine motor skills are also quite good.

> > > Also she shows she is bright in the way she is so very sneaky ay

> > > getting food she is not allowed,she runs rings around most people.

> > >

> > > Sharon.

> > >

> > > Sharon

> > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd

> guess

> > > > > it's

> > > > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and

> processing

> > > > > skills as

> > > > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

> > > Besides

> > > > > which I

> > > > > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a

> > > heiracrchy of

> > > > > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> > > > > conversation with

> > > > > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest

> (other

> > > > > than with

> > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> > > > > friends or

> > > > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest

> feelings are

> > > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most

> powerfully a

> > > > > profound

> > > > > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I

> am,

> > > so

> > > > > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented

> and

> > > not

> > > > > able to

> > > > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying

> to

> > > > > understand

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me

> acute

> > > brain

> > > > > pain,

> > > > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and

> it's

> > > > > that not

> > > > > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but

> > > shout

> > > > > if you'd

> > > > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones

> next

> > > so I

> > > > > can do

> > > > > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate

> on

> > > that

> > > > > one. I

> > > > > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not

> sure I

> > > > > can wrap

> > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

> > > thought

> > > > > I was

> > > > > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>

> > > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------

> ----

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 -

> Release

> > > > > Date:

> > > > > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > ------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release

> > > Date:

> > > > > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > ------

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release

> Date:

> > > 25/09/2008 19:23

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> ------

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date:

> 25/09/2008 19:23

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1693 - Release Date: 26/09/2008

07:35

>

>

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Hi Vicky, My son is non-verbal aswel,he will say a few words like Barney,toilet,crisps..but does not actualy communicate, he does however sing songs all day long,from his dvds,even when he is crying and upset..he will cry and sing!!! but he is not able to communicate.. and he is going to be 6 in feb

Subject: Re: Mandi: EFT/ nonverbalTo: Autism-Biomedical-Europe Date: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 7:28 PM

I think it's only in last last 3 or 4 years Katy has enjoyed music ( She's now 12yrs old ) She was non verbal up to the age of about 6 yrs ,then started making some sounds.When she was younger she couldn't tolerate any music on,I would have to turn everything off if she was home,even the television.At about 9 yrs she had a whistle stimm,which was pitch perfect.I can't say when things really changed,but she has been in the school choir for a couple of years,sometimes she joins in,other times she just moves to the music with a huge smile on her face.Sharon.>> my son (Nico) is non-verbal, he doesn't sing at all. The only thing is that he repeats words from time to time like bye-bye or ball

or video (but it is just repeating after us). > Begona> > > > Re: [Autism-Biomedical- Europe] Re: Mandi: EFT/ nonverbal> > > I'm following this thread with interest, wonder though how many on here have completely non verbal kids, not even singing.> I think Mandi is one, and . Any others?> > Any others?> Vicky>

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---my jack,12, did this too, only relatively recently is he ok with poor singers

like his

mum.He too has perfect pitch .

on another note,since discovering you tube ,its quite something to hear him sing

disney

esp jungle book songs in spanish,german ,hebrew .......

Nina

In Autism-Biomedical-Europe , Eva family

wrote:

>

> This thing about not tolerating music may be a sign of perfect pitch.

> Rhona got a booklet from the States from someone who teaches savants,

> discussing perfect pitch. Not allowing others to sing (because they it

> so badly) was one of the signs -- Edith does this too.

> Sally

>

> Sharon wrote:

> >

> > I think it's only in last last 3 or 4 years Katy has enjoyed music (

> > She's now 12yrs old ) She was non verbal up to the age of about 6

> > yrs ,then started making some sounds.When she was younger she

> > couldn't tolerate any music on,I would have to turn everything off if

> > she was home,even the television.

> > At about 9 yrs she had a whistle stimm,which was pitch perfect.I

> > can't say when things really changed,but she has been in the school

> > choir for a couple of years,sometimes she joins in,other times she

> > just moves to the music with a huge smile on her face.

> >

> > Sharon.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > my son (Nico) is non-verbal, he doesn't sing at all. The only

> > thing is that he repeats words from time to time like bye-bye or

> > ball or video (but it is just repeating after us).

> > > Begona

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Re: Mandi: EFT/ nonverbal

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm following this thread with interest, wonder though how many on

> > here have completely non verbal kids, not even singing.

> > > I think Mandi is one, and . Any others?

> > >

> > > Any others?

> > > Vicky

> > >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1693 - Release Date: 26/09/2008

07:35

> >

> >

>

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I thought we'd never hear Tom speak again. He didn't really get

anything significant and deliberate back until July 2006. The amount

of language he has on demand compared to July 2006 is probably trebled

to quadrupled. It's nowhere for a 10 year old but I'm really sure he

will slowly get much more. We really find that Verbal Behaviour has

helped, along with treating gut and impaction in particular. Even

when he was non verbal he still sang.

At present he is singing The Kinks " You Really Got me " , most of the

first verse and chorus (or approximations). It might be a differnt

part of hte brain but it's still good practise. And it's so COOL when

his VB teachers hear his great taste in music and say " wow, that

sounds just like, my god it is The Kinks.. "

Sx

>

> is 11 now, and we are getting concerned we may never hear him

speak.

> Biomed gosh don't know how long, but around the same time as Mandi

did with

> Sam.

> Biomed has helped loads with his general health which was absolutely

dire,

> his behaviours, loads of stuff really, his receptive language is

excellent, he

> never understood tiddly squat in the early years, in many ways he is

a lot

> higher functioning than he used to be, but language is just

completely stuck.

> Without a shadow of doubt the least improved area of his life, by some

> margin.

> I'm convinced it's in there, but am becoming more convinced the speech

> therapy has been woefully inadequate. It's like we have healed him

to the point

> of total understanding but now need the correct therapy to move on.

> Anyone know anything about PROMPT or oromotor?

> Vicky

>

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He sings in his SLEEP? that must be a first. Don't think TOm has

perfect pitch but he's really accurate with notes and phrasing. His NT

brother, who also sings constantly, is sadly not!

S x

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd guess

> it's

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and processing

> skills as

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

> Besides which I

> > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a heiracrchy

> of

> > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> conversation with

> > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest (other

> than with

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> friends or

> > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings are

> sadness

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> profound

> > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I am, so

> > > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and not

> able to

> > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> understand

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

> brain pain,

> > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and it's

> that not

> > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but shout

> if you'd

> > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next so

> I can do

> > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

> that one. I

> > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not sure I

> can wrap

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

> thought I was

> > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> > > <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com

> > > <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 - Release

> Date:

> > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release Date:

> > > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

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but if that connectivity has been there and then suddenly it's not,

and some external factor is suspected in knackering that connection

then surely that could be categorised as damage? The symptoms a lot

of regressive kids show are akin to brain damage aren't they? That's

certainly what I think of Tom's problem as, brain damage caused by a

totally dicky metabolism in a totally toxic world.

Steph x

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all that Mandi. Much appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As for what being non-verbal feels like, I'd

> guess

> > > > it's

> > > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > me as an adult who lost many verbal and

> processing

> > > > skills as

> > > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > > > > > > than for a child who lost them as a toddler.

> > Besides

> > > > which I

> > > > > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > > language skills, and a something like a

> > heiracrchy of

> > > > > > > > difficulty

> > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > > typing being the easiest and face to face

> > > > conversation with

> > > > > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > > > > have strong emotions for being the toughest

> (other

> > > > than with

> > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > husband, haven't had face to face contact with

> > > > friends or

> > > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > more than 2 years).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, in my situation the strongest feelings

> are

> > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > loss, separateness, isolation. Most powerfully a

> > > > profound

> > > > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > I am unable to express or to be the person I

> am,

> > so

> > > > sometimes

> > > > > > > > > > > > frustration at being grossly misrepresented and

> > not

> > > > able to

> > > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > straight. Guess I should've said that trying to

> > > > understand

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > communicate verbally frequently causes me acute

> > brain

> > > > pain,

> > > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > > occasionally it seems like brain damage, and

> it's

> > > > that not

> > > > > > > > > > mechanical

> > > > > > > > > > > > issues which most limit me.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Likely Sam's situation is very different, but

> > shout

> > > > if you'd

> > > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > > more.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Jacqui

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Need to watch the surrogate tapping ones next

> > so I

> > > > can do

> > > > > > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > > > for Sam

> > > > > > > > > > > > > but mega busy and need time to concentrate on

> > that

> > > > one. I

> > > > > > > > did

> > > > > > > > > > tap

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sam after I

> > > > > > > > > > > > > replied to you the other day but I am not

> sure I

> > > > can wrap

> > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > head

> > > > > > > > > > > > around

> > > > > > > > > > > > > feeling whats its like to be non verbal, he

> > thought

> > > > I was

> > > > > > > > mad

> > > > > > > > > > > > doing it but was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > super clam afterwards.............hmmmmmmmm

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>

> > > > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>

> > > > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>

> > > > <http://www.emofree.com <http://www.emofree.com>>>>)

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mandi x

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com>

> > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>>

> > > > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> <http://www.avg.com

> > > > <http://www.avg.com>>>

> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1689 -

> Release

> > > > Date:

> > > > > > > 24/09/2008 18:51

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > ------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.2/1690 - Release

> > Date:

> > > > 25/09/2008 07:05

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > ------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date:

> > 25/09/2008 19:23

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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