Re: I believe it's sick people not sick buildings

[Guest guest]

Danny,

Whether you are a defense attorney, a troll or legit, but

especially if you are an attorney, check out the difference

between a link, a cause, an association (strong or weak,

supportive or not). These definitional differences are important

in law for anything, not just mold. I suggest you start with Kundi

at: http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/8297/8297.pdf

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hi, Jim:

I agree, probably a defense attorney, trying to trap someone into

a statement that he can use against an expert witness.

Sorry, Danny, but your approach to the whole issue is

inappropriate and unnecessary. It is not up to us to prove a

negative, as you are asking. We are not able to, nor have a

desire to, prove that mold does not cause illness. Many of us who

are on this listserve have been addressing mold issues and health

related problems for a long, long time, some since the early

1980's. There have been thousands upon thousands of peer-reviewed

papers and books outlining the relationship between airborne

exposure to certain types of mold spores and the resultant

illnesses experienced by individuals around

the world. These papers have followed the scientific process, and

they have been vouched by the reviews of Ph'D's, CIH's, CSP's, and

others who have experience and knowledge in this field.

Please do your own research on this topic, if you are truly

interested in this subject, and do not ask us to do the research

for you. Once you have read through the research documents

thoroughly, then come back and discuss the issue intelligently.

Otherwise, please leave this listerve.

No one is claiming that you are crazy to hold your views, merely

ignorant. Get educated, speak about the subject with

intelligence, stop your attacks on others, and then others will

respect your opinions.

Until then, please do not infect this listserve with your biased

opinions. That has been tried before and it has been

unsuccessful.

Don

>

> Danny

> I am a trained scientist that did research into the health effect

> of mold exposure. Get the Wallaceburg research papers from CMHC,

> read them and get back to me then.

>

> What is your educational background and who do you work for,

directly and financially? I think that I smell a rat!

>

> Jim H. White System Science Consulting

> Formerly " Senior Advisor - Building Science " of Canada Mortgage

> and Housing Corporation.

>

> Re: I believe it's sick people not sick

buildings

>

>

> I am increasingly disappointed with the complete disregard to

> the scientific process that is shown by members of this forum.

> If there is a link between mold and illness, please show it.

> Otherwise stop making outrageous statements that there is such a

> link and everyone who disagrees with you is crazy. If you can

> disprove the statement that there is no link between household

> mold and illness, please do so now. Capitalizing on the fears

> ignited by " black mold " is unethical and completely unscientific.

> Danny

>

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[Guest guest]

Jim & Don,

Well said. I second your statements.

Chuck Reaney

To: iequality

Date sent: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:45:41 -0000

Subject: Re: I believe it's sick people not sick buildings

Send reply to: iequality

Hi, Jim:

I agree, probably a defense attorney, trying to trap someone into a

statement that he can use against an expert witness.

Sorry, Danny, but your approach to the whole issue is inappropriate

and unnecessary. It is not up to us to prove a negative, as you are

asking. We are not able to, nor have a desire to, prove that mold

does not cause illness. Many of us who are on this listserve have

been addressing mold issues and health related problems for a long,

long time, some since the early 1980's. There have been thousands

upon thousands of peer-reviewed papers and books outlining the

relationship between airborne exposure to certain types of mold spores

and the resultant illnesses experienced by individuals around the

world. These papers have followed the scientific process, and they

have been vouched by the reviews of Ph'D's, CIH's, CSP's, and others

who have experience and knowledge in this field.

Please do your own research on this topic, if you are truly

interested in this subject, and do not ask us to do the research for

you. Once you have read through the research documents thoroughly,

then come back and discuss the issue intelligently. Otherwise, please

leave this listerve.

No one is claiming that you are crazy to hold your views, merely

ignorant. Get educated, speak about the subject with intelligence,

stop your attacks on others, and then others will respect your

opinions.

Until then, please do not infect this listserve with your biased

opinions. That has been tried before and it has been unsuccessful.

Don

> > Danny > I am a trained scientist that did research into the health

effect of mold exposure. Get the Wallaceburg research papers from

CMHC, read them and get back to me then. > > What is your educational

background and who do you work for, directly and financially? I think

that I smell a rat! > > Jim H. White System Science Consulting >

Formerly " Senior Advisor - Building Science " of Canada Mortgage and

Housing Corporation. > > Re: I believe it's sick

people not sick buildings > > > I am increasingly disappointed with

the complete disregard to the scientific process that is shown by

members of this forum. If there is a link between mold and illness,

please show it. Otherwise stop making outrageous statements that

there is such a link and everyone who disagrees with you is crazy. If

you can disprove the statement that there is no link between household

mold and illness, please do so now. Capitalizing on the fears ignited

by " black mold " is unethical and completely unscientific. > Danny >

[Guest guest]

Steve,Thanks for your input and your account. I am curious, is it just you with mcs? or you whole family? How bad are you? Are you able to work?Did you continue living in the house after this incident?Very strange, did you ever discover what might have done this?

Your hypothesis may well be right, I do have a little bit of a problem with everyone being different though. Just seems to me to be more unlikely than the prospect that all of us are linked by common denominators. But than maybe it depends on your poison too. Depleted uranium is probably going to have a lot different effect on one than organophosphates.

I do fully believe certain people are much more sensitive than others and their is a broad spectrum in the degree of disability surrounding this illness. Based on this and their success with avoidance.But there is such a small amount of actual facts surrounding these illness I like to keep an open mind to your view and other peoples views as well as my own hypothesis. And always try to put a disclaimer at the end that that is all it is, " my best guess " . And encourage others to shoot holes in it. Another way of putting it is I can state emphatically that I react violently to mold, but I can't be sure what set this illness into motion, weather it's pesticides, or mold or a combination of the two. Weather it was a slow process like heart disease or weather it happened at a relatively specific time and place.

I have been studying the methods of scientist's and am starting to understand why we are marginalized. They don't call it " evidence based medicine " for nothing. And I see the virtues in this approach. If they simply patronized everyone their would be no science.What I don't understand is why they haven't made the simple connection to mold and the illness surrounding it because you have a pathogen and you have very sick people and it doesn't get much easier than this. So I do fault them for not doing their homework and the denial and refusal to do a fair unbiased study.Does seem they are doing everything in their power to keep the Jeanie in the bottle.

,

Twelve years ago this spring my wife called me at work

saying, " there's something wrong in the house, none of us feels

right. " I rushed home, pulled into the attached garage, stepped out

of the car, inhaled once, and suddenly was having acute multi system

symptoms. Went through the door into the house, symptoms got worse,

rounded my wife and two small children (none of whom was able to

think clearly) up, and got everyone out of and well away from the

house.

In about 2 hours my symptoms were less acute, and they took about 2

days to where they seemed to clear. However, I have had MCS from

that day.

Went to our Industrial Hygenist's office, got a Summa canister to

check for volatiles and some other sampling tools, went back and

captured samples from the house during the acute exposure. The

samples came back normal.

Brought in an expert to do mold sampling, it also came back normal.

Whatever sensitized us, wasn't a mold, and wasn't anything an

experienced CIH knew or thought to look for.

I do have a hypothesis as to what happened, and why, but that's

beyond the scope of this reply. This reply is to encourage two

beliefs:

1. there are myriad things in normal environments that one can

become sensitized to, and once sensitized, can no longer be in the

presence of. You being sensitized to live mold is irrelevant to

your neighbor on the left who was in the first Gulf War, nor with

the neighbor on the other side who got into too much glutaraldehyde

sanitizing medical instruments.

2. A building can sensitize a person. I'd call a sick building one

which sensitizes. I would not call a sick building one to which a

sensitized person reacts.

Steve Chalmers

stevec@...

>

> I posted in a nutshell my belief's about this disorder to the

review section

> of the Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) Radio podcast. Just thought I

would post it

> here. I know I am the only person in the world that thinks this

way, but

> what the hell here it is:

>

> I BELIEVE IT'S SICK PEOPLE NOT SICK BUILDINGS

> I also don't believe in the mycotoxin angle I believe if a study

were done

[snip]