Re: Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim

[Guest guest]

candtcampbell@... wrote: Does Crist's 1500mg/day tetracycline challenge dose seem awfully high to you? That's 30 times higher than what Trevor Marshall would recommend. Well, Tim, I can't speak for Christ's protocol, but I can say that 50mg of any antibiotic per day sounds more far fetched than 1500mg when it comes to treating infection. penny candtcampbell@... wrote: a, What you are missing is that nobody really knows what the hell they are doing! I said Jemsek said that I do not have the genes for Lyme infection. On the other hand, Shoemaker says I do have the genes for mold illness. I took a box of cholestyramine following Jemsek's abx protocol, but felt no different - not even constipation! I'm not sure whether to trust my positive Bowen test, or Crist's opinion either. Does Crist's 1500mg/day tetracycline challenge dose seem awfully high to you? That's 30 times higher than what Trevor Marshall would recommend. Tim Tim, that is very interesting. So you don't have the genetic type that Shoemaker says with cause chronic Lyme. BUT YOU STILL HAVE BORRELIA. I still can't wrap my head around this. I mean Shoemaker tested me and I do have the genetic tendency to not clear mold or toxins.

But as long as you still have borrelia they will keep pumping out toxins, so what difference does it make what genotype you have? You have to find a way to get rid of the borrelia THEN NEXT take the Questran or whatever to clear the toxins. We can clean the barn til the cows come home, and then they will poop it up again.What am I missing here?a

[Guest guest]

*Snicker* ... I find it

reassuring whenever anyone recommends something that strongly disagrees

with Trevor's thinking.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

candtcampbelljuno wrote:

Does Crist's 1500mg/day tetracycline challenge dose seem

awfully high to you? That's 30 times higher than what Trevor Marshall

would recommend.

Well, Tim, I can't speak for Christ's protocol, but I can say

that 50mg of any antibiotic per day sounds more far fetched than 1500mg

when it comes to treating infection.

penny

candtcampbelljuno wrote:

a,

What you are missing is that nobody really knows what the hell

they are doing! I said Jemsek said that I do not have the genes for

Lyme infection. On the other hand, Shoemaker says I do have the genes

for mold illness. I took a box of cholestyramine following Jemsek's abx

protocol, but felt no different - not even constipation! I'm not sure

whether to trust my positive Bowen test, or Crist's opinion either.

Does Crist's 1500mg/day tetracycline challenge dose seem awfully high

to you? That's 30 times higher than what Trevor Marshall would

recommend.

Tim

Tim, that is very interesting. So you don't have the genetic

type

that Shoemaker says with cause chronic Lyme. BUT YOU STILL HAVE

BORRELIA. I still can't wrap my head around this. I mean Shoemaker

tested me and I do have the genetic tendency to not clear mold or

toxins.

But as long as you still have borrelia they will keep pumping out

toxins, so what difference does it make what genotype you have? You

have to find a way to get rid of the borrelia THEN NEXT take the

Questran or whatever to clear the toxins. We can clean the barn til

the cows come home, and then they will poop it up again.

What am I missing here?

a

[Guest guest]

Yes, what Barb says is correct 1500 mg/day is the usual dose for tetracycline.

Might there be a confusion here btwn tetracyline (the abx) and tetracycline the CLASS of abx (now usually called cyclines)?

The main cyclines are tetracycline, doxycycline and minocycline, They are not used at the same doses. Tetracycline (the earlier cycline) is less bound to proteins and needs to be taken a) at higher doses (usually btwn 1500mg-2000mg) and more often (3 or 4 times a day).

Doxy and mino stay in your system longer and need smaller doses to achieve similar effects (200-300mg for doxy, 100mg-200mg for mino).

So 1500mg of tetracyline cannot be compared with 1500 mg of mino or doxy.

Nelly

[infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim

Tetracyclines therapuetic dose to kill the Lyme Spirochete is know.SO.. Crist's 1500 mg/day is correct.

[Guest guest]

Boy is that a good question. Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: So what's happening with that protocol- Is there ANYONE that's be able to get off the tiny abx dosesand stay improved for longer than 5 minutes?Barb> >> > a,> > > > What you are missing is that nobody really knows what the hell> > they are doing! I said Jemsek said that I do not have the genes> > for Lyme infection. On the other hand, Shoemaker says I do have> > the genes for

mold illness. I took a box of cholestyramine> > following Jemsek's abx protocol, but felt no different - not even> > constipation! I'm not sure whether to trust my positive Bowen> > test, or Crist's opinion either. Does Crist's 1500mg/day> > tetracycline challenge dose seem awfully high to you? That's 30> > times higher than what Trevor Marshall would recommend.> > > > Tim> > > > Tim, that is very interesting. So you don't have the genetic type> > that Shoemaker says with cause chronic Lyme. BUT YOU STILL HAVE> > BORRELIA. I still can't wrap my head around this. I mean Shoemaker> > tested me and I do have the genetic tendency to not clear mold or> > toxins.> >> > But as long as you still have borrelia they will keep pumping out> > toxins, so what difference does it make what genotype you

have? You> > have to find a way to get rid of the borrelia THEN NEXT take the> > Questran or whatever to clear the toxins. We can clean the barn til> > the cows come home, and then they will poop it up again.> >> > What am I missing here?> >> > a> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Barb

A little supplementary Vit A + Vit D can help to curb the photosensitivity associated with the tetracyclines

Regards

Windsor

[infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim

You're correct.Some drugs are dosed by kg of body weight- some are not...Dr.s have alot of leeway dosing- because they know a little more than the patient when it comes to absorption rates (with and without food) and/or bioavailability due to it being a second or 3rd generation drug or how it's metabolized.Although.. that said - I see plenty of Dr.s over-dosing people with Doxy .. therapuetic dose is 5 mg/Kg body weight - ABove that- you have a much higher chance of having toxic reactions- and DOxy's aren't very much fun.Barb>> > Also, I am pretty sure that daily dosages of tetracycline aren't > comparable by weight to daily doses of minocycline or of doxycycline. I > am not clear on why. It may be mostly because tetracycline has a > shorter serum half-life. Or it might be lower bioavailability, or a mix > of factors.> > > > Does Crist's 1500mg/day tetracycline challenge dose seem awfully > high to you? That's 30 times higher than what Trevor Marshall would > recommend.> > > > > > Well, Tim, I can't speak for Christ's protocol, but I can say that > 50mg of any antibiotic per day sounds more far fetched than 1500mg when > it comes to treating infection.> > > > penny>

[Guest guest]

What is not true, Tony?

We are not talking in-vitro here, you can't pretend that cyclines can be compared gram per gram in vivo. They behave differently in-vivo and dosages have to be adjusted accordingly.

BUT some people (dr Donta for eg) think you indeed have a better chance of hitting Lyme with TETRAcycline taken 4 times a day than with doxy or mino.

I have no personal opinion

Nelly

[infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim> > > Tetracyclines therapuetic dose to kill the Lyme Spirochete is know.> SO.. Crist's 1500 mg/day is correct.>

[Guest guest]

>in the alternative medical fields that try and treat q fever, bartonella >and a host of other stuff without real success or placing a good >finding on the correct offensive organism.

Tony,

I don't think you have a very good grasp on what, say, Q-fever is nor do you know how it is treated. Yet it is a common infection in Australia (meat workers, farmers for eg) and the chronic phase needs to be treated very long term and cyclines are always included. You may want to check the works of Raoult et al and you will that Raoult and his team are everything but not alternative!!

Nelly

[infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim> > > > > > > > > Tetracyclines therapuetic dose to kill the Lyme Spirochete is > > know.> > > SO.. Crist's 1500 mg/day is correct.> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Tony,

Who's talking CFS doctors, or alternative practices? I am talking of very mainstream researchers treating very serious infections (life-threatening, heart destroying infections etc) with years of oral combos of doxy and hydroxychloroquine for eg.

below are 2 studies, but there are plenty more.

Nelly

Arch Intern Med. 1999 Jan 25;159(2):167-73.

Links

Treatment of Q fever endocarditis: comparison of 2 regimens containing doxycycline and ofloxacin or hydroxychloroquine.

Raoult D,

Houpikian P,

Tissot Dupont H,

Riss JM,

Arditi-Djiane J,

Brouqui P.

Unite des Rickettsies, Faculte de Medecine, Universite de la Mediterranee CNRS, Marseille, France. Didier.Raoult@...

BACKGROUND: Q fever endocarditis, caused by iella burnetii, is fatal in 25% to 60% of patients. Currently, treatment with a long-term tetracycline and quinolone regimen for at least 4 years is recommended, although relapses are frequent. METHODS: Between January 1987 and December 1997, the reference treatment of Q fever endocarditis was compared with one of doxycycline and hydroxychloroquine sulfate. Patients were treated by conventional therapy until May 1991 and then by the new regimen. Microimmunofluorescence was used for antibody-level determination for diagnosis and follow-up. RESULTS: Thirty-five patients were included in the study, 26 males and 9 females. Of 14 patients treated with a doxycycline and quinolone combination, 1 died, 7 relapsed (3 were re-treated and 4 switched to the new regimen), 1 is still being treated, and 5 were considered cured using this regimen only. The mean duration of therapy for cure in this group was 55 months (median, 60 months). Twenty-one patients received the doxycycline and hydroxychloroquine regimen: 1 patient died of a surgical complication, 2 are still being treated, 17 were cured, and 1 is currently being evaluated. Two patients treated for 12 months but none of the patients treated for longer than 18 months relapsed. The mean duration of treatment in this group was 31 months (median, 26 months). No significant differences were observed between the 2 regimens in terms of death, valve surgery, or tolerance. The mortality rate for both regimens in this study was 5%. CONCLUSION: Prescription of the doxycycline and hydroxychloroquine combination for at least 18 months allows shortening of the duration of therapy and reduction in the number of relapses.

PMID: 9927100 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 1990 Aug;34(8):1512-4.

Related Articles,

Links

Bactericidal effect of doxycycline associated with lysosomotropic agents on iella burnetii in P388D1 cells.Raoult D, Drancourt M, Vestris G.Centre National de Reference des Rickettsies, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de la Timone, Marseille, France.There is no consistently reliable treatment for endocarditis resulting from chronic iella burnetii infection, the causative agent of Q fever. Although certain antibiotics are recommended on the basis of their in vitro bactericidal activities, results of therapy with these antibiotics are often disappointing. To evaluate whether the currently recommended antibiotic susceptibility tests for C. burnetii give misleading results because of continued division of uninfected cells, thereby resulting in the dilution of infected cells and, hence, a false picture of antibiotic efficacy, we blocked cell division during antibiotic susceptibility testing with cycloheximide. Using this new method, we found that the currently recommended antibiotics for the treatment of Q fever, doxycycline, pefloxacin, and rifampin, did not reduce the ratio of infected to noninfected cells (either L929 or P388D1) by 9 days postinfection. To test the hypothesis that this lack of antibacterial activity is due to antibiotic inactivation by the low pH of the phagolysosomes in which C. burnetii is found, we used alkalinizing lysosomotropic agents (chloroquine or amantadine) concurrently with doxycycline. This resulted in the sterilization of C. burnetii infection in P388D1 cells. This finding seems to confirm our suspicion that the acidic conditions of the phagolysosomes in which C. burnetii is located inhibit antibiotic activity. This inhibition can be reversed in vitro when lysosomotropic alkalinizing agents are used.PMID: 2221859 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim> > > > > > > > > > > > Tetracyclines therapuetic dose to kill the Lyme Spirochete is > > > know.> > > > SO.. Crist's 1500 mg/day is correct.> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

No the name Q-fever comes from "query" (as in question-as in we-don't-know-the-cause) fever, not Queensland fever as is sometimes thought because it is frequent in Queensland (as in other parts of Oz where cattle and sheep abound- ie everywhere!). But it is found worldwide and particularly in the middle east, but also in France in fact everywhere.

It can be caught in all kinds of manners and is a very sturdy bacteria that can survive for a very long time. The bacteria can be breathed in by just walking around as it is found in very high numbers in the aborted products of conceptions of farmed or wild animals. The aborted products (C. burnetii often causes abortions), if left lying around, will dry up and the bacteria will become air-borne). It can also be transmitted in other ways.

It is an intracellular bacteria and getting to where it hides (in acidic vacuoles where it is protected against abx) is the problem, hence the HCL and the cyclines very long term.

Nelly

More articles for your education re Query-fever, Tony!

Emerg Infect Dis. 2004 Jul;10(7):1264-9.

Links

Wind in November, Q fever in December.

Tissot-Dupont H,

Amadei MA,

Nezri M,

Raoult D.

Unite des Rickettsies, CNRS, Faculte de Medecine, Marseille, France.

Q fever, a worldwide zoonosis caused by iella burnetii, can be transmitted from animal reservoirs to humans by the inhalation of infected aerosols. We investigated the epidemiology of Q fever in the Bouches-du-Rhone district of southern France, particularly the role of wind and rainfall in C. burnetii transmission. During the winter of 1998 to 1999, an unexpected number of cases were diagnosed in the area. This statistically higher incidence was associated with an increased frequency of the mistral 1 month before onset of disease, i.e., shortly after the main lambing season. These data confirm that wind plays a role in C. burnetii transmission, a factor that can be monitored but not prevented. Further studies are needed to identify and confirm preventable individual behavioral risk factors for Q fever.

PMID: 15324547 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Clin Infect Dis. 1998 Sep;27(3):592-6.

Links

Q fever during pregnancy: a public health problem in southern France.

Stein A,

Raoult D.

Unite des Rickettsies, Faculte de Medecine, Universite de la Mediterranee, Marseille, France.

We describe five cases of Q fever in pregnant women that were diagnosed during the last 3 years in the town of Martigues in Southern France. Analysis of our cases and the 18 other published cases shows that Q fever is a significant cause of morbidity and mortality in pregnancy. The disease may present as an acute or chronic infection and can be reactivated during subsequent pregnancies, as is seen with other mammals. In Martigues, Q fever is present in at least one per 540 pregnancies and constitutes the most significant public health problem related to intrauterine infections.

PMID: 9770161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

---- Original Message -----

From: dumbaussie2000

infections

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:03 PM

Subject: [infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim

I see your point. This is a beef acquired infection that was first diagnosed in queensland if I recall correctly. Your also observing a serious approach as opposed to my egs. of a half assed approach by a doctor/s that's shunned by his mainstream peers.These studies are very good examples of serious treatments but still lack GRUNT AND CONVICTION to the patients by not exploring the use of IV drugs for what seems so LIFE THREATENING.I wouldn't think endocarditis with coxsella bacteria deserves anything less than optimal therapy.> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Yes, what Barb says is correct 1500 mg/day is the usual > dose > > for > > > > tetracycline.> > > > > > > > > > Might there be a confusion here btwn tetracyline (the abx) > and > > > > tetracycline the CLASS of abx (now usually called cyclines)? > > > > > > > > > > The main cyclines are tetracycline, doxycycline and > > minocycline, > > > > They are not used at the same doses. Tetracycline (the > earlier > > > > cycline) is less bound to proteins and needs to be taken a) > at > > > higher > > > > doses (usually btwn 1500mg-2000mg) and more often (3 or 4 > > times > > > a > > > > day).> > > > > > > > > > Doxy and mino stay in your system longer and need smaller > doses > > > to > > > > achieve similar effects (200-300mg for doxy, 100mg-200mg for > > mino).> > > > > > > > > > So 1500mg of tetracyline cannot be compared with 1500 mg of > > mino > > > or > > > > doxy. > > > > > > > > > > Nelly> > > > > [infections] Re:Lyme/genetics/Tim> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tetracyclines therapuetic dose to kill the Lyme Spirochete > is > > > > know.> > > > > SO.. Crist's 1500 mg/day is correct.> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>